High Queen Khalifa

[Dorash182]

Hello everyone. Ive previously had issues when posting on this forum from very unhelpful and unconstructive repliers that has made me hesitant to post here again, but I am trying to get a wide array of opinions on a particular rules issue that has arisen while playing against my Tomb Kings playing friend. 

 

The facts-

1. He wishes to use High Queen Khalida's Command Ability to buff his Screaming Skull Catapults. 

2. Khalida's Command Ability allows hit rolls made by SKELETON keyword to add 1 to hit rolls in the shooting phase.

3. The Screaming Skull Catapult itself does not have the SKELETON keyword. The Crew however do have the SKELETON keyword. This qualifies the Warscroll as having the SKELETON keyword, if thats relevant. 

4. The Screaming Skull Catapult Warscroll makes no mention of the catapult itself firing. It does however say that "if the Crew are within 1" of the catapult in the shooting phase they can fire the war machine".

 

Can anyone give their reasonings as to which way to resolve this rules question?

[Luck-a]

I believe the crew itself fire the catapult, not the catapult itself, so I would let him add 1 to its hit rolls.  Crewed artillery as a whole is a bit wonky in Aos. To be honest, it's really one of my only complaints about the ruleset. 

[Sception]

No.  The catapult weapon is on the catapult profile on the catapult scroll.  It needs crew nearby to fire, but it is still the catapult's weapon, and the catapult is not a skeleton.  It's annoying and confusing that they don't share the keyword, in particular that pure deathrattle armies can't take it because that's another keyword that the crew carry but the catapult lacks, but whatever, it is what it is.

The catapult is not a skeleton.  The catapult's ranged attack is not buffed by khalida's command ability, which only buffs the ranged attacks of skeletons.  That's all there is to it.

[Oppenheimer]

They're considered seperate units. They just happen to share a warscroll page. Since the ranged attack is listed on the war machine and not on the skeletons the war machine does not get the bonus.

You can let him know that the warsphinx with skeleton crew (ie not royal) does have skeletons key word and so its breath attack gets +1 though.

[Sception]

The warsphinx can also be targeted by the signature spells of necromancers and tomb kings, and benefit form the command abilities of wights and mummies.

[Kramer]

The way I understand it. And will try to find the faq where it's mentioned. Is that abilities that trigger on a keyword of the crew do not effect the shooting of the artillery piece as it's a different model.

My personal vendetta with this is the dark elf reaper bolt thrower that doesn't benefit from the command ability of the Dreadlord  Would have been so great. 

[Galas]

I only want to say that his name its Khalida. 

Khalifa its a queen also, but of other things  

 

(You have it right here, but not in the title!) 

[Dorash182]

Since posting this OP I have been convinced that the Catapult would benefit from the buff, for a few reasons. 

As in the OP it is clearly stated that the Crew are firing. Following the rules of statutory interpretation theres no reason to not take the wording for its own meaning- it literally states the Crew fire the machine. The Crew have the SKELETON keyword, therefor they get the buff. The ranged profile has merely been placed next to the war machine to indicate that this is the profile that the Crew would use when making ranged attacks. 

As Sception says, a Screaming Skull Catapult couldn't be taken in pure DEATHRATTLE lists because of the catapult not having the requisite keywords. This is true, however has nothing to do with the wording on the Crew's profile - that it is they who make the attacks. 

Is there any ruling or something from GW or a GT dealing with artillery crew units or anything? Because without a direct ruling I can't see how the wording of the warscroll can be ignored.

[Luck-a]

As I said before, I think the catapult does get the buff. The warscroll says the crew fire the catapult, just as skeleton archer fire their bows. The faq specifically states however that they are seperate units, they just share the same war scroll and pitched battle profile. In the same vein, what happens when you cast 'Raise Skeleton Crew' in matched play? Do you need reinforcement points? If so, how many?

[Sception]

You're overthinking it.  The catapult is not a skeleton, the catapult's weapons do not benefit from effects that buff the weapons of skeletons, regardless of who fires them.  The profile is on the catapult, the catapult doesn't have the keyword.  Until errata to the contrary, it really is just that simple.

As for reserve crew, you pay points for the catapult, the crew come with it for free.  You do in theory have to pay from reserve points to summon a new crew, but in practice it doesn't matter because the amount of points you pay is zero.

[Lanoss]

I think this'll just be something you discuss with your gaming group or TO.
Not a big deal I feel. Just talk it through before play. If your opponent doesn't agree then just field more archers


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[Kurrilino]

On 2017-04-04 at 3:09 PM, Galas said:

I only want to say that his name its Khalida. 

Khalifa its a queen also, but of other things  

 

(You have it right here, but not in the title!) 

Hey now... this was the reason why i came over here from the chaos board.

Really disappointed

[Kurrilino]

21 hours ago, Luck-a said:

As I said before, I think the catapult does get the buff. The warscroll says the crew fire the catapult, just as skeleton archer fire their bows. The faq specifically states however that they are seperate units, they just share the same war scroll and pitched battle profile. In the same vein, what happens when you cast 'Raise Skeleton Crew' in matched play? Do you need reinforcement points? If so, how many?

You don't need any points to raise them up. It's written in General Handbook that Artillery Crew comes for free.

[Mortarch]

I think the catapult gets the buff for following reasons:

• Raising crew after being wiped (but the catapult remains) does not cost points.. as it is only ever a "replenishment action" like the Skeleton Banners or the Nekroknight spell. I think this is as ultimately it is considered a single entity in most cases.
• There is a single points cost for the package of catapult and crew.
• Nekroknights have the skeleton and reanimant keywords. Those keywords refer to the Rider and Mount respectively. However when Dance Macabre is used on the Skeleton riders, the entire unit (even the mount) gets the buff. In the same manner the buff should be applied to the whole entity formed of catapult and crew.

 

But then what do I know... just trying to maintain the FEW good shooting things Death has. 

[Sception]

It is not a replenishment action, it's a new unit.

There is a points cost for the catapult, the crew is free.

Necroknights are a single unit with one set of keywords.  Catapult & crew are two units with two explicitly separate sets of keywords.  The fact that they are explicitly NOT presented the same way in the rules is evidence that they are NOT intended to work the same.

When wounds are applied to a necroknight, do they go to the mount or the rider?  When the enemy attacks them, do they choose to attack the mount or the rider?  a necroknight is one thing, mechanically they are a single entity.  catapult and crew are exactly the opposite - separate units, with separate profiles, separate keywords, targeted independently by enemy attacks.  The enemy attacks either the crew or the catapult, not both simultaneously, because they are separate units.  If they were meant to share keywords, why two separate lists of them?  Why do some of the same keywords show up in both lists (Death) but not others (Skeleton).

 

I mean, the reasons you give for why the bonus does apply are all in fact clear evidence as to why it doesn't.

Besides, the catapult is still good.  More for the leadership debuff than the damage it causes, but with the explicit necrotect buff 2 to 3 catapults can be an effective damage source, too.