Balewind vortex, points down the drain or no

[robotnik_taco]

Question about the balewind vortex. I had assumed, like most summoned things, a reserve of 100 points was required to bring this beauty into play. Then, if you got sick of looking at it, you could, poof! dismiss it. Now, i assumed at this point, to resummon it, you would need to pay the points yet again. However, in this useful little article,          https://aos-tactics.com/2017/03/06/summoning-in-age-of-sigmar/

the author mentions, that this doesnt cost points after the initial investment? any idea where this is clarified? It would be handy to be able to do this to make the caster way less visible to shooting after it does its thing, but only having the vortex around for a turn or two seems kind of wasteful. 

 

If this is the case, could i summon the vortex with one wizard, cast some spells, dismiss it and then have another cast it and use it all in one turn, or am i being far too liberal with the phrase 'beginning of the hero phase'.

[BaldoBeardo]

I think having to pay 100 points for it each time
you summon it is very over the top IMO, you've paid the points already for it why should you have to pay for it multiple times?


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Because that's how the rules read. You certainly couldn't argue it's unfair to keep paying points to summon the same 10 skeletons over and over, surely?

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[Kurrilino]

On 2017-04-27 at 9:16 PM, rokapoke said:

I am extremely curious about who (or what) the Balewind Vortex is fighting. Can you help me out with that?

uhm..... gravity and reality ???

I have absolutely no clue since it doesn't have any attacks on the warscroll.

I'm sure you don't have to actively fight to count as part of an army.

The guys who did our hair as recrutes in my army time were ranked soldiers as well.

But i couldn't tell who or what they are fighting.

[rokapoke]

22 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

All Models are described by warscrolls.

Models fight in UNITS.

 

- Balewind Vortex has a warscroll so it is a model.

- All models fight in Units.

 

Case is closed.... anything else i can help out with ?

I am extremely curious about who (or what) the Balewind Vortex is fighting. Can you help me out with that?

[Kurrilino]

13 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Even ignoring that, there rules aren't clear on how banishing the vortex works — is it treated as destroyed? Is it like Tomb Swarms burrowing back underground? Does the spell “Summon Balewind Vortex” effectively do two different things — setting up a new Balewind Vortex or returning an existing one to play — depending on whether you have one already “removed from the table” from earlier?

I guess we are reading too much into this thing.

It's like everything else. The rules say what you can do. It's not about the assumtion what can not do.

It;s written in the "Held Aloft" rule on the warscroll.

A Wizzard can banish it and return to the ground.... Model has to be removed from the battlefield until it is summoned again.

 

It can't be any clearer. You pay 100 points to summon it.

If you banish it, it is gone and you have to summon a new one.

And yes it is even called a single model on it's own warscroll. So it is a Unit.

 

[Squirrelmaster]

8 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

And would you enlighten me why they added 100 points to summon this thing

if it doesn't apply at all ?

That's kinda my point — they gave it a points cost, therefore it's reasonable to assume that we are meant to use that points cost, somehow.

But with the rules as written, we can't.

Therefore, we shouldn't play by the rules as written, but should deviate from them by the smallest amount possible to make the game actually work.

8 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

Models fight in UNITS.

- Balewind Vortex has a warscroll so it is a model.

- All models fight in Units.

- To summon units you have to pay from reinforcement pool

Okay, so you're saying it's a unit. I have no problem with that at present, but the rules say summoned units must have the same Grand Alliance as the rest of your army — and the vortex doesn't belong to any “Grand Alliance”.

So even under that interpretation, the rules just don't work as written.

Even ignoring that, there rules aren't clear on how banishing the vortex works — is it treated as destroyed? Is it like Tomb Swarms burrowing back underground? Does the spell “Summon Balewind Vortex” effectively do two different things — setting up a new Balewind Vortex or returning an existing one to play — depending on whether you have one already “removed from the table” from earlier?

[Aginor]

4 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

Try a Gaunt Summoner on it who wipes half of the units in a 36" radius.

Think about 80 Ork boys going poof in round 1 after the battleshock test. Especially when you can cast the same spell twice.

I would call that usefull.

Actually everyone with huge tar pits should be terrified of that beauty.

Yeah, I changed my opinion on it as well (see my last post) because some wizards can be really devastating using it. Gaunt Summoner, Weirdnob Shaman and Kroak for example.

[Kurrilino]

8 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Now would you show me the rules for including a "spell" or "a piece of scenery" in your army.

Because as far as I can see, there aren't any.

And would you enlighten me why they added 100 points to summon this thing

if it doesn't apply at all ?

 

I might help you out here.

The RULES:

Warscrolls & Units

All Models are described by warscrolls.

Models fight in UNITS.

 

- Balewind Vortex has a warscroll so it is a model.

- All models fight in Units.

- To summon units you have to pay from reinforcement pool

Case is closed.... anything else i can help out with ?

 

[Kurrilino]

On 2017-03-29 at 7:58 AM, Aginor said:

I mean: Even now, does anyone use it in competitive play? I used it once and it looked cool, but that's about it. I see its possible advantages but it does make your wizard a sitting duck with a sign saying "shoot me" around the neck. I still wonder if there are people calling it worthwhile.

Try a Gaunt Summoner on it who wipes half of the units in a 36" radius.

Think about 80 Ork boys going poof in round 1 after the battleshock test. Especially when you can cast the same spell twice.

I would call that usefull.

Actually everyone with huge tar pits should be terrified of that beauty.

[Squirrelmaster]

57 minutes ago, urion said:

There you go. States very clearly how you include it in your army.

So… it effectively doesn't cost any points? If you have the model, you can use it without paying for it? Because that rule says nothing about points.

It has a points cost. Therefore, we must assume that its points cost is used somehow. The question is: "how?".

The rules for including units in my starting army, which i can then use without summoning, tell me to pay for them out of my points allowance.

The rules for using warscroll battalions tell me to pay for them out of my points allowance.

The rules for adding units to my army tell me to set aside points before the game, and decide what to spend them on as and when I use the spell or ability that adds them to my army.

The rules for including the Balewind Vortex make no mention of points. There are no generalised rules for including scenery or spells in my army. You say that the rules for reinforcement points refer only to units, and therefore don't apply, but the rules for your starting army points also only apply to units and warscroll battalions, so by that logic they don't apply either.

You argue that the BV is like a warscroll battalion — you pay once for the ability to summon it, as many times as you like. Why should we assume that, instead of assuming that the BV is like a unit — you pay for it out of reinforcement points as and when you summon it, each time. The wording is certainly very similar to "Summon Skeletons".

[urion]

There you go. States very clearly how you include it in your army.

[Squirrelmaster]

@urion

Here are the rules for fielding units (there's more, but it all continues to talk about units only. Feel free to point out an exception.):

Quote

After you have agreed what type of game you want to play, look it up on the chart opposite. The chart lists the number of points each player has to spend on the units for their army, and what limitations apply to the types of unit you can bring.

Each player must then pick the units they will use for their army as described next.

Here are the rules for fielding warscroll battalions:

Quote

If a player's army includes the units needed to field a warscroll battalion, then the player can use the battalion's abilities by paying a certain number of points.

Now would you show me the rules for including a "spell" or "a piece of scenery" in your army.

Because as far as I can see, there aren't any.

[urion]

It is not in some rules "void". It states very clearly what it is. It is a spell you pay for. And no, using points does not only apply to buying units it also applies to using Battalions, which are paid for in addition to the units involved. Are you also confused about their inclusion in matched play? Some of those Battalions also give your units spells they can use during game play so it is not the only spell that costs points.

[Squirrelmaster]

17 minutes ago, urion said:

The rules for reinforcement points, very specifically, only apply to units. It is not a unit, therefor reinforcement rules don't apply. How is that confusing? Or is the question whether it is a unit or not?

The rules for choosing an army, using points, also very specifically only apply to units.

If the vortex isn't a unit, it's in a rules void where nothing even states that it can or cannot be used in matched play, much less that its "points cost" is relevant to anything.

From the fact that GW have given it a points cost, we have to assume that that cost can be used somehow.

[urion]

The rules for reinforcement points, very specifically, only apply to units. It is not a unit, therefor reinforcement rules don't apply. How is that confusing? Or is the question whether it is a unit or not?

[Matthew Watkinson]

I think having to pay 100 points for it each time
you summon it is very over the top IMO, you've paid the points already for it why should you have to pay for it multiple times?


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[Aginor]

Funny that you mention it right now, because that's exactly what happened to me last week.

My friend's Weirdnob managed to make Gork stomp four times in the first round, killing my Astrolith Bearer, my Skink Chief and my Starpriest. After that it was a very short match...

I also used it a few times now and I think I agree that it can be very strong and probably is OK at that price.

[BURF1]

On 3/29/2017 at 9:58 AM, Aginor said:

Really? IMO that would make it absolutely useless. Heck, I thought the 100 was already a bit on the expensive side (50-80 would be more fitting IMO) but I could still understand why one could see that it should have a point cost. But 100 per cast would mean that nobody would ever risk dismissing it.

I mean: Even now, does anyone use it in competitive play? I used it once and it looked cool, but that's about it. I see its possible advantages but it does make your wizard a sitting duck with a sign saying "shoot me" around the neck. I still wonder if there are people calling it worthwhile.

It's so good it makes ironjawz a scary magic army. With perfect rolls a weirdnob shaman could completely clear off a 36" circle on the board.

[Terry Pike]

2 hours ago, Aginor said:

Really? IMO that would make it absolutely useless. Heck, I thought the 100 was already a bit on the expensive side (50-80 would be more fitting IMO) but I could still understand why one could see that it should have a point cost. But 100 per cast would mean that nobody would ever risk dismissing it.

I mean: Even now, does anyone use it in competitive play? I used it once and it looked cool, but that's about it. I see its possible advantages but it does make your wizard a sitting duck with a sign saying "shoot me" around the neck. I still wonder if there are people calling it worthwhile.

Its already very powerful at 100pts for using once. I have used it in competitive play and have had it used against me a number of times.

3 places of power: insanely powerful having the Changling casting Gateway on your heroes turn 1 in your own deployment zone.

How about it pushing your beefy combat unit forward an extra 3 inches when its summoned to give them an even longer threat range.

I had fun with a Gaunt Summoner killing 60 man units of infantry in 1 spell turn 1. It is priced fine at 100pts, any cheaper would be a bad thing for the game

[Aginor]

56 minutes ago, Terry Pike said:

The only way I've seen it played is you pay the 100pts each time you successfully cast the summon BWV spell.

After a conversation at Tomorrowburns this weekend I'm sure its being ruled as pay per cast at SCGT and FaceHammer later this year

Really? IMO that would make it absolutely useless. Heck, I thought the 100 was already a bit on the expensive side (50-80 would be more fitting IMO) but I could still understand why one could see that it should have a point cost. But 100 per cast would mean that nobody would ever risk dismissing it.

I mean: Even now, does anyone use it in competitive play? I used it once and it looked cool, but that's about it. I see its possible advantages but it does make your wizard a sitting duck with a sign saying "shoot me" around the neck. I still wonder if there are people calling it worthwhile.

[AverageBoss]

Deleted.

[Terry Pike]

The only way I've seen it played is you pay the 100pts each time you successfully cast the summon BWV spell.

After a conversation at Tomorrowburns this weekend I'm sure its being ruled as pay per cast at SCGT and FaceHammer later this year

[Sadysaneto]

the confusion is that the vortex shouldnt be a scenery, but just a summon.

[Aginor]

Everyone I talked to about it said: You pay the point cost once, think of it as paying 100 points to have the warscroll on the table.

Sounds reasonable IMO.

 

About dismissing it: Only one wizard can have it in the same round. And you cannot summon and dismiss it in the same turn.

[BaldoBeardo]

Ooh, this is a sticky one. There's an argument to be made that the BWV doesn't cost *any* reinforcement points as it's not a unit, according to the GHB as written.
But it has a points cost, so you have to pay for it some how.
Erk.


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[Jharen]

Another note to your original post.  No you cannot summon it, cast your spells, then banish it.  You can only banish it at the start of the hero phase as per the warscroll ability Held Aloft.  Once you've started casting spells it is no longer the start of the hero phase.