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The aesthetic of Undead in AOS discussion


shinros

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1 hour ago, Galas said:

Thats the problem I see with death, basically. That its a Alliance build on a single faction. To me, homogeneization, bot in faction rules, Lore and aesthetic will make it a pretty boring (In the sense that it was just only 1-2 flavours) Alliance.

 

I think GW should look to expand his tropes and themes, not make it smaller.

In my opinion that's what largely order and destruction is for, because if they separate alliances for Death gameplay wise it would cause more problems than solve and lore wise Death does not fight in separate alliances/sub-factions like order and destruction. Since they are a necromantic faction raising the dead to fight for them. 

If they went that route no one will use necromancers anymore, no one will use nagash or the mortarch's either hence as I said a hordes of nagash tome would work for them. As since in balance of power there is a pretty clear hierarchy going on with Death, it's due to them being largely monolethic and their forces largely lacking in free will since they are undead that shyish has not fallen yet. 

Also Mannfred fighting for centuries as well. 

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Yeah, but at that point you have something like a full alliance that its basically the Stormcast Eternals with all his chambers. You can make the different subfactions of Death that still are under Nagash reing very unique and different, and then you can make more Death-themed Factions that have nothing to do with Nagash.  Maybe its a bit of a retcon, but after they retcon Stormcast Eternal Orcs I don't care about that anymore! T.T 

Death need to be expanded, not more homogeiniced. Bust just my 2 cents.

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28 minutes ago, Galas said:

Yeah, but at that point you have something like a full alliance that its basically the Stormcast Eternals with all his chambers. You can make the different subfactions of Death that still are under Nagash reing very unique and different, and then you can make more Death-themed Factions that have nothing to do with Nagash.  Maybe its a bit of a retcon, but after they retcon Stormcast Eternal Orcs I don't care about that anymore! T.T 

Death need to be expanded, not more homogeiniced. Bust just my 2 cents.

Yup which I think will happen to death as I said in a previous post I expect Death to get a similar tome to the new stormcast eternals, disciples of tzeentch and the recent blades of khorne. This is just my personal opinion this would not bother me since lore wise it fits and gameplay wise it would solve many of the problems Death have right now. 

At most when they update death I could see a few new units matching the deathlord's aesthetic, new zombies, liche priest, blood knights and a plastic vampire hero but they can be run in any sub faction. Many people have said Death works better as a grand alliance than small sub factions. Since if you run skeletons or zombies necromancers are great if they separate the three of them into their own books all the synergy will be lost.

You can no longer take zombies or a necromancer and they will forget all their traits and spells. 

You just have to look at the various command traits and spells the various death general's have to see that they work better in the alliance. 

Also nagash is very hands on with his armies they state that the FEC that have not bent the knee to nagash they don't stick around they run to another realm. Since if they get within in the presence of nagash that would be the end of them, lord of undeath even details how Nagash get's the various undead to do things. 

Sometimes the vampires don't even realize they are being controlled by nagash since he is so subtle, only so far mannfred notices when he does it because of how he thinks. 

Order and destruction is a different beast where I think each sub faction should get a tome. 

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Yeah! But as I said, you can have totally different subfaction that lorewise are still of Nagash army. And then you can have Death-themed factions that have nothing to do with Nagash. You are limiting yourself to what its NOW in the game. You should expect totally new things like the Kharadron Overlords.

 

And the discusion about a Necromancer losing hits traits and spells if he picks Skeletons and Zombies... say that to my Greenskin general when he takes a Giant to his army :(  But thats how AoS work. 

You can't have everything! (Only if you are a Stormcast!) 

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9 minutes ago, Galas said:

Yeah! But as I said, you can have totally different subfaction that lorewise are still of Nagash army. And then you can have Death-themed factions that have nothing to do with Nagash. You are limiting yourself to what its NOW in the game. You should expect totally new things like the Kharadron Overlords.

 

And the discusion about a Necromancer losing hits traits and spells if he picks Skeletons and Zombies... say that to my Greenskin general when he takes a Giant to his army :(  But thats how AoS work. 

You can't have everything! (Only if you are a Stormcast!) 

Problem his spell buffs skeletons, zombies and ghouls above that he has no purpose if they go that route. Honestly you could be right GW may create a new faction but going by the campaign books and stories released on death nothing has really changed on how they fight. 

I do feel if they do that you will have more upset death players than happy ones.

edit:I mean GW would not make a box like this with the deathlords. 

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Start-Collecting-Skeleton-Horde

If they want to do something like that eh, I honestly wish GW would just give us some details on what's going on with death. 

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My point its that the Necromancer problem has more to do with how factions and Alliances work in AoS that how the Death Alliance works. You have factions like Gargant, Firebelliz, Monster of Chaos, that shoudln't broke faction traits etc... if you pick them in a more "real faction" force. Necromancers should be in that box too. They should be an add-on to different Undead factions.

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1 minute ago, Galas said:

My point its that the Necromancer problem has more to do with how factions and Alliances work in AoS that how the Death Alliance works. You have factions like Gargant, Firebelliz, Monster of Chaos, that shoudln't broke faction traits etc... if you pick them in a more "real faction" force. Necromancers should be in that box too.

Honestly all we have is that when we mentioned that we wanted a similar book like the disciples of tzeentch for death on facebook and twitch they said they will pass our feedback on along with new zombies. We just have to wait and see I guess. 

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As an alternative, I would rather see some of our branches expanded such that they do function as separate factions within an alliance.

Deathrattle would be easiest, just bring back and incorporate some of the tomb kings ideas, and expand their character roster with skeletal mages.  Rebuild them as a 'necropolis' faction, the remains of great civilizations in Shyish that were destroyed either by Nagash or by Chaos, but where the people of the civilization persisted after death in a grim mockery of their former lives due to the necromantic magic of their kingdoms.  Could include both skeletal stuff (the former citizens of the necropolis) and haunted statues (pieces of the necropolis itself rising up against invading enemies) - 
 

Spoiler

 

Like, imagine early civilization in Shyish.  The realms have just formed, and mortal and divine survivors of the old world find themselves scattered throughout including on Shyish.  Shyish proves to be among the least hospitable of the new realms, the necromantic energy that sufuses the realm means that nothing stays dead here, it's like a late stage zombie apocalypse from day one.  Worse, the souls of all creatures that die end up in shyish's underworlds, pulled there from the other realms by the gravit of that same necromantic energy, but they don't stay there, often they escape to stalk the living on the surface of shyish.

In order to survive, the mortals of shyish are forced to turn to anyone with power over the dead.  Vampires, Necromancers, Cults of Death Gods, and these form the priestly hierarchy at the heads of new civilizations, able to control the shambling dead - turning a threat into an asset - and bind ghostly spirits into soul stones that trap them so they are not free to attack mortals.

Since the dead are now a valuable tool, mortals are neither burned nor burried, but rather inturred in necropoli adjacent to the living cities, from which they can be drawn as an army to protect the civilization from invaders.  In time, it's even learned how to carve the soul stones into powerful animated statues which become weapon of war.  Over the centuries, the necropoli come to dwarf the human settlements that they serve, and as the leadership passes into undeath, those parts that weren't undead already, the living city becomes less and less the focus of civilization, and more a farm to harvest corpses, souls, and blood.

Eventually, both the living cities and their undead aristocrats are wiped out, either in conflicts between the living and the dead, or else when Nagash conquered the realm, or else when Chaos conquered it after Nagash's withdrawal.  Regardless, though, Shyish is still Shyish, nothing stays dead, so the Necropoli are still their, the skeletal armies and their stone warbeasts still rising to attack any who threaten their cities, led by wight castellans, necrotects, and spellwrights.  Powerful undead such as Nagash's mortarchs often seek out these ruined necropoli, binding them with their masters dark magic to call them to war.

From the existing deathrattle lists, add:
* bring back skeletal chariots, archers, catapults
* haunted stone giants & monstrous infantry
* monstrous cav skeletons riding stone gargoyle beasts, similar mechanically to necroknights
* In addition to fighty wight lords/castellans, add casty and supporty heroes, on foot, steed, or chariot
* stone sphinxes, including ridden by wight heroes, including a new mortarch version of Krell

 

Nighthaunt I also think could be expanded into a viable independent subfaction without too much work.

Deathmage and Deadwalker, I could more see being rolled together though.  Maybe tie them thematically to a grand college of necromancy, a Bleak Academy, something that in earlier days openly drew recruits from all corners of the realms and participated in joint arcane studies with the greatest magical schools.  Now it exists half shrouded in legend, a dark tower churning out masters of necromantic magic who work nagash's will through the realms.  A single traveler in tattered robes could prove to be a college necromancer who studied at the feet of Nagash himself, capable of raising a vast army of the shambling dead overnight from the corpses of a single battlefield.

Deathlords I'd like to see expanded, once the narrative is ready to switch focus, at least for a time, away from 'order vs. chaos' and towards 'nagash vs everything'.  Instead of 'Nagash, Mortarchs, and Morghasts', make it 'Nagash, Mortarchs, and Revenants', where 'Revenants' is a general term for powerful undead soldiers created not from mortal flesh and souls, but rather from the divine servants of deities that have dared to oppose Nagash in the past, a category that would include:

Spoiler

 

* Morghasts, the first Revenants, these are undead created from the divine servants of those long dead gods who attempted to oppose Nagash's original ascent to godhood.  The units we already know, possibly ditching the summoning bonus for abilities more keyed to their particular role, like perhaps archai being able to soak wounds for nearby deathlord heroes or the like.  speaking of heroes, a hero version of a morghast would be cool too, think of it as a sort of counterpart to the celestant prime

* Stormghasts - think smaller, wingless, more heavily armored morghasts with weapons and powers based on necrotic lightning - or 'blightning' if you will.  They would including both infantry units and cavalry mounted on smaller flightless versions of the mortarchs' dread abyssals, along with hero versions, maybe even a new mortarch.  The Stormghasts are revenants made from former divine servants of a brutish thunder god who dared to dared to steal from Nagash, and now will be taught humility at the hands of his own chosen champions.

* Blasphemies - ethereal Revenants without physical form, they are twisting clouds of madness bound to blackstone soul shards and bits of armor that contain their form.  Visually think morghasts without the skeletal body, just a swirling mass of screaming ghostly faces with a few bits of armor to suggest an overall form.  These are revenants created from daemons who are not just banished but actually slain by Nagash's dark magic, each blasphemy a nightmare amalgamation of several slain daemons from each of the gods, forced together into a being of hatred and madness that exists only to draw more souls, especially those of other daemons, into itself.  They alone represent the possibility of true and final victory over the Dark Gods, as with each daemonic entity they forever snuff out, the power of the dark gods is forever reduced by some infinitesimal degree.

 

I'd also like to see the ranks of the mortarchs themselves expanded, possible candidates including undead who survived to the end of the old world and new undead relating to AoS themes.

* Khalida, maybe
* Isabella, stepping into her late husbands shoes
* Krell didn't make it to the end, but who doesn't like Krell?
* Dieter in his towering soul form as a demigod managing the underworlds for Nagash
* That first ghoul king the FEC book hints at, as a chained mortarch serving against its own will?
* That first stormcast soul Nagash managed to tear away from Sigmar?

I don't know, there are tons of possibilities, but I certainly wouldn't mind the ranks of the mortarchs eventually getting expanded back out to nine.

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I haven't read any of the lore. Perhaps I'll get an audiobook for driving/working.

In regards to Faction/Grand Alliance anti-synergies, I think they could try something unique for Death.

For starters, they should probably combine death mages into Deathlords. And I'm not sure Deadwalkers really needs a full faction, unless we are simply gong to see zombie version of Dire Bears/Ogres/something fast/flying/ranged.

With death themed around the heroes/generals and armies that follow, they could base the rules in a way that the rulers are all faction-neutral in one way or another. So essentially you can have a Deathrattle army + Nagash and the skeletons still remember how to be good at skeleton-ing.

Same with Necromancers. They classify as heroes and should be able to walk amongst a Deathrattle/Deadwalker/Nighthaunt/Soulblight army.

Perhaps they even have to choose a Mark the way Daemon Princes do.

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