Brayherd

[Andreas]

I thought I should start a thread discussion the Brayherd. Anyone else running a Brayherd?

Do you run the Wildstalker Brayherd formation? If so which units do you ambush?

What are the optimal unit sizes? Both Gors and Ungors get bonuses when they are 20 or more. My experience is that having more than 10 is just a waste. If they get attacked and you have 20 instead of 10 the additional Gors just run away anyway due to battle shock. Minimal unit size and throw in several units if needed seems for me to be the best way.

Bestigor on the other hand I think you should have 20 or more and focus all your buffs on them, mystic shield and inspiring presence etc…

Regarding inspiring presence is there any point to using another command ability, it seems to me that having one unit not suffering battle shock always outweighs any other benefits you could get, the +1 to hit command ability for example.

What should you add to your Brayherd from other fractions? I use a few monsters just because it is fluffy.

The Brayherd is fast, usually having many capturing units and they can often generate a lot of attack. They lack resilience (except the one unit (often bestigors) that you have fully buffed), they lack shooting and they lack rend (except bestigors).

I have found that ghorgons work quite well. You use the brayherd to swarm the enemy and you use ghorgons to kill them. But the main reason for me using ghorgons are fluff more than anything else, are there any better complements to the brayherd? A shooty skaven engine coven maybe or some resilient nurgle units to hold the center. Any ideas?

[Dangermouse425]

I've been slowly assembling my Beastmen and will be running mostly Brayherd units with a couple of other flavour units (Cygors, Centigors, etc). It's a tricky army to build a strong list around and so far I haven't come up with anything that I think could hold its own against a decent top 30 SCGT list/player.

The Brayherd suffers a lot from having poor saves and low Bravery. When you take damage, you'll be losing a lot of models and when you lose models, you'll be taking a lot of casualties in the Battleshock phase. A vicious cycle.

I think the a couple of Brayshamans, potentially even three will really help buff your Bestigors as well as a couple of your larger (15-20) Gor units will help hugely. The Beastlord's Command Ability is limited, so I suspect Inspiring Presence will be the order of the day.

Using the fast movement alongside the run+charge mechanic means your Brayherd is a pretty speedy army, but my main concerns are about doing enough damage and resilience. Any supporting units would need to supplement the army in these two main areas of weakness. Your suggestions of a shooty Skaven engine coven or a resilient Nurgle core both certainly have merits.

I'll report back if I think of any alternative ideas.

[Andreas]

Top 30 SCGT list/player, that’s quite hard I think. ;-)

Just to put some list out to discuss their merits, here is the list a usually run:

size		SCGT
1	Beastlord	3
2	Great Bray Shaman	10
20	Bestigors	16
20	Gors	8
10	Gors	4
10	Gors	4
20	Ungors	6
10	Ungor Raiders	4
10	Ungor Raiders	4
10	Ungor Raiders	4
1	Tuskgor Chariot	2
1	Ghorgon	12
1	Cygor	10
1	Jabberslythe	8
--	Formation: Wildstalker Brayherd	5
117		100

 

I think to make it harder I think you need to raise the damage output.

One way could be to go full Ghorgon.

size		SCGT
1	Beastlord	3
2	Great Bray Shaman	10
20	Bestigors	16
10	Gors	4
10	Gors	4
10	Gors	4
10	Ungor Raiders	4
10	Ungor Raiders	4
10	Ungor Raiders	4
10	Ungor Raiders	4
1	Tuskgor Chariot	2
3	Ghorgons	36
--	Formation: Wildstalker Brayherd	5
97		100

 

Another way could be to go Bestigors and 3 Shamans. With mystic shield they have 3+ save and as long as the Beastlord is alive and within 16 they hit quite hard, 3 attacks each with 4+, 3+ and rend -1.

size		SCGT
1	Beastlord	3
3	Great Bray Shaman	15
20	Bestigors	16
20	Bestigors	16
20	Bestigors	16
10	Gors	4
10	Gors	4
10	Gors	4
10	Ungor Raiders	4
10	Ungor Raiders	4
10	Ungor Raiders	4
10	Ungor Raiders	4
--	Formation: Wildstalker Brayherd	5
134		99

 

And a third way could be to take the minimal formation requirement and put it in your side pool. Then when you need 9-11 ambushing scoring units throw them in.

size		SCGT
1	Beastlord	3
1	Great Bray Shaman	5
10	Bestigors	8
10	Gors	4
10	Gors	4
10	Gors	4
10	Ungors	3
10	Ungor Raiders	4
10	Ungor Raiders	4
10	Ungor Raiders	4
1	Tuskgor Chariot	2
--	Formation: Wildstalker Brayherd	5
83		50

[HobbyHammer]

I played Beastmen for a while and think I finally cracked it. I think the key is quite a few heroes body guarded by the herd. Bray Shaman giving +3 to move, plus banners and trumpets giving Run and Charge and +1 pile in, beastlord giving his command ability. The list I run is 

3 x Beastlord
3x Greay Bray

20 x Bestigor
60 x Gor (three units of 20)
30 x Ungor Raiders (3 units of 10)
80 x Ungor (4 units of 20)

Put the BrayShaman in with Gors, body guarded, 2 beast lords in with Bestigor and one lone to go kill something easy and quick. Send the ungors round the flanks and ambush the raiders to pick at the back line.

So many bodies, but it will overwhelm most opponents.

[Dangermouse425]

As cool as the Wildstalker Brayherd is, I can't help but see the Ungor tax as too much. Do you all think it's essential to running a decent mono-Beastmen list? 

[Stylus]

I'm also putting together a mostly-brayherd force (although not a very competitive one), so I'd be interested in what you find out.

Personally, I wouldn't want to run Gors in anything less than units of 30 (unless it was a small unit for capturing objectives rather than fighting) - so they can take a couple of casualties and still gain the bonus to their Anarchy & Mayhem roll.

[Andreas]

1 hour ago, Dangermouse425 said:

As cool as the Wildstalker Brayherd is, I can't help but see the Ungor tax as too much. Do you all think it's essential to running a decent mono-Beastmen list? 

In my rather limited experience I think the formation is essential because of the +1 attacks rather than abillity to ambush. But if you add other hard hitters and only use the herd to capture maybe you dont need it.

Another big plus with have the formation is that you can make the opponent go first and with the speed of the brayherd, ambush and the potential dubbel turn your threat range is essentially the whole table.

[Mehman]

I've been a Beastmen player since I started years ago. Now that we have the freedom to do what we want, they are even more fun!

When I played, this was the army that got played. One of the great things about Beastmen is their ability to merge perfectly with any other Faction in the Chaos Alliance. Any of the gods' Daemons make for great allies and are fluff-tastic. Really, the Chaos Monsters Faction was made just for the Beastmen player to select cool stuff for his/her army. (While not 100% factual, the previous statement makes sense to me !) I won't list any of the other Factions because that would waste time - they all fit perfectly.

I never got to run the Wildstalker Brayherd so I can't help you there.

Gors are our mainstay unit! Sure, some will flee due to battle, but that's their nature - we're talking about beasts here! It should be noted that for every 10 warriors you have in a unit, that unit gains 1 to their Bravery for battleshock and other tests. I know I tended to forget that ! I used to run a big unit of 30-40 Gors with Full Command and paired weapons. Make sure a hero is close by and watch them devour enemy units. It was common knowledge back in WFB to only field the Gors with Additional Hand Weapons but in AoS anyone should feel free to choose the shield option if they like that look better. Along with a big unit of Gors, I'd either go with a unit of 30 Gors with Full Command or 25 Bestigors with Full Command.

In AoS, Ungor Raiders can actually kill things. The disbelief on my face when they killed some other warriors was probably the reason my opponent was laughing at me. Anyway, I'd take two units of 12, both with a Halfhorn.

I would include Razorgors, a Chimera, and a Jabberslythe from the Chaos Monsters Faction. Pure and awesome fluff.

Lacking Rend isn't a problem when you've got 40 guys stabbing at the enemy.

Instead of a Ghorgon, take a unit of Minotaurs - Bullgors is what they're called now, I think. They also devour enemy troops.

Hope this helps!

[Stylus]

9 hours ago, Mehman said:

Gors are our mainstay unit! Sure, some will flee due to battle, but that's their nature - we're talking about beasts here! It should be noted that for every 10 warriors you have in a unit, that unit gains 1 to their Bravery for battleshock and other tests.

Is that a new ability due to their Formation? I can't see it on the Gor warscroll.

[Xerox]

No it's not in a Warscroll Batallion but in the main rules as far as i remember. But i think no one do this. ?

Edit: I was right it's written in the Battle-Shock rules! 

[Stylus]

2 hours ago, Xerox said:

No it's not in a Warscroll Batallion but in the main rules as far as i remember. But i think no one do this. ?

Edit: I was right it's written in the Battle-Shock rules! 

Of course - I'd missed that myself (I should really read those four pages more carefully ) 

[Carnelian]

Everyone misses that rule at first! But it makes a huge difference if you are running bug units with low bravery. 

[Avian]

Having been a Beastman Player back in 8th,my experience then as now has always been go big or go home. The update in AOS has really nailed the fluff and feel of the army being this stinking wall of flesh that runs at you and keeps coming no matter how many you kill. I can't speak for Gor having not played them very much reacently, but with my Bestigor and Chariots I've been using big units so that they not only gain extra bravery but can also take the casualties and absorb them while still being able to dish out plenty of damage.

Unlike Stormcasts or Elves, Beastmen should not be thought of as a small elite army, they are a massed herd and it's every Beast's duty to die for the Herd.

[Dolomedes]

I love me my beastmen.

 

I have some ****** news for Beastmen players however, if you are playing the Wildstalker brayherd formation, I'm 90% sure you have to ambush the entire battalion. This seriously gimps your ambush, deploying that many models on a table edge just isn't effective. You lose your hero phase, your movement phase, and there's a good chance you won't get a charge off at a range of 9. To make it effective you pretty much have to take the first turn, leaving you open to a double turn, because if you don't take the first turn your opponent will probably realise what's about to happen and just occupy the table edges and buff themselves up, making the idea of ambushing pretty pointless. The brayherd just isn't an army that can cope well with 2 turns of buffed up pounding, low bravery and armour and a boatload of models seriously neutering your maneuverability  makes the ambush quite ineffective at what it's supposed to do. 

 

Something that DOES work however that isn't expected of beastmen, is being more defensive. I know I know, but bear with me here.

 

Gors, should be deployed in a 30 man block. 20 minimum, or it's just pointless. In a 30 man block you will hold up pretty much anything, and with support, ( the BSB for example that isn't included in the wildstalker brayherd and not able to ambush, but still gives +1 to anarchy and mayhem roll and +1 to wound on top of anarchy and mayhem), your heroes,  and your ungors with spears in a line behind the gors providing cover for your heroes, gives you have a solid deathstar. Run the furious brayherd and laugh as you pump out an absurd amount of attacks on anything that dares to come to your line. You can even move it forward super quick if needed!

 

The downsides of brayherds are they just can't punch through some of the more elite stuff. I really struggle against death units for example, the damage done to ethereal units, units with those extra saves, and that regenerate models just isn't enough. This is where your minotaurs and ghorgons probably come in, but I've not had much experience using them yet, so I can't comment on their uses yet.

 

Destruction armies just laugh as they hack through the weaker axe wielding nutjobs.

 

I think to run brayherds effectively, you NEED a strong shooting and magic phase. Ungor raiders make for an incredibly effective shooting unit when run as 30, getting the run and shoot rule and rerolls to hit of 1 and 2. Some big monsters (Soulgrinder!) on the flanks forcing others into your deathstar line of shooting and magic is probably the way to go, surging forward if needed.

[Andreas]

Just regarding the Wildstalker formation, I dont think your interpretation is correct. RAW the use of "can place them" seems to be a premissive wording that you can place a unit in ambush but you dont need to. Compare to the wording "you must set up all of these" in the later sentence which are a restrictive wording, you can not chose. But even if you read the RAW in a different way you can always ask for a clarification since RAI I am 99,9% sure that is not the way they intent you to play it. Mainly because it seems less fun and more restrictive and they seem to rule the other way around lately and there are other similar formations and they all play it they way you would think it would work. You put some units in ambush or ready to teleport etc.

Just what I think and how I would play it.

[Dolomedes]

I hope you are right, it would make my army so much better.

In this forum post however, there is a response from GW that makes it pretty clear that's not how its meant to be.

 

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/697820.page

 

IMO, it needs a proper FAQ as it's a make or break for the Beastmen. It is just a screen shot, and you certainly shouldn't believe all you see on the internet, but it's quite compelling.

[Andreas]

Hmm it feels like he answered the wrong question. ☺

"You need to deploy all of them the first turn" = "you must set up all of these" ie all units in ambush must be deployed in the first turn. And that I agree with.

But now I am only 99,5% sure, someone should ask again.

That would be a boring ruling since a proper brayherd would have problem being able to deploy all units if the opponent goed first and blocks bord edge space. And it is not that the formation is broken and needs to go.

We will have to see. But I dont think / hope you have a problem playing it in the way that makes sense in the meantime.

[Bruinin]

I play every week at 1500.  I just acquired a wack of beastmen.  I plan on running: 

Gorthor

Beastlord

Shaman

10 Bestigors

30 Gors

20 Gors

10 Gors

20 Ungors

Jabberslythe

Cygor

My usual opponent doesn't usually run alot of shooting. So I think with the Crown of Conquest I should be able to smash face and cover enough objectives.  My biggest concern is moving ~100 models around.  Most of the games we have played usually on have half that.  Comments welcome.

Thanks,

Bru

[Dolomedes]

On 8/21/2016 at 5:02 PM, Bruinin said:

I play every week at 1500.  I just acquired a wack of beastmen.  I plan on running: 

Gorthor

Beastlord

Shaman

10 Bestigors

30 Gors

20 Gors

10 Gors

20 Ungors

Jabberslythe

Cygor

My usual opponent doesn't usually run alot of shooting. So I think with the Crown of Conquest I should be able to smash face and cover enough objectives.  My biggest concern is moving ~100 models around.  Most of the games we have played usually on have half that.  Comments welcome.

Thanks,

Bru

Furious Brayherd formation with that?

With the moving stuff around, you get used to it. I've found opponents stop paying much attention to your movement phase when there are over a hundred models in it, which can lead you to set up all sorts of nice little formations. A 2 ft wide 30 man gor unit is a scary looking thing, if you can charge it and get your buffs off properly you should put a serious hole in the enemy line.

Only suggestion I would have on your list is maybe swap the monsters for a few more Bestigors, I find 10 is just never enough for me.

Other than that, a healthy looking list I would say.

The Jabberslyth to monster hunt, a Cygor for the odd wizard or character, (and they are both sweet models!), plenty of fast moving infantry for objective taking, and if you play wisely the gors can pump out some hurt.

How are you thinking of playing your army?