What are the worst Warscrolls and Why?

[Tailessine]

Yeah KO ships at least get a prize for unfluffiest warscrolls, as they prevent (when being remotely competitive) the faction being the shipborne, mobile, heavy hitting force they are meant to be. 

[123lac]

On 9/30/2018 at 8:19 PM, ledha said:

skullcrushers are 140 pts for 15 wound, a 4+ save, good movement and ignore spell on 4+. They are FAR from being bad. They only need offensive power, and the brass stampede give them that

You have to structure your whole army around Brass Stampede just to make Skullcrushers decent.

I have to second that they are not a good unit.

Very cool looking models though.

[Kyriakin]

Literally the entire Scourge Privateers faction.

Think about it...:

The faction is Fleetmaster, Corsairs, Kharibdyss and Scourgerunner Chariots.

All four of these warscrolls are absolutely wretched and, while Corsairs may not be over-priced, who would want to paint 160 of them in a horde?

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Kyriakin said:

Literally the entire Scourge Privateers faction.

Think about it...:

The faction is Fleetmaster, Corsairs, Kharibdyss and Scourgerunner Chariots.

All four of these warscrolls are absolutely wretched and, while Corsairs may not be over-priced, who would want to paint 160 of them in a horde?

Do not forget that the 160 painted Corsairs still won‘t be able to kill anything, neither with ranged attacks nor with melee (hitting/wounding on 5+ is SUPERB for a feared elven Corsair...)

the chariot is just a LOS blocker shooting Pillows.

[Arkanaut Admiral]

6 hours ago, 123lac said:

You have to structure your whole army around Brass Stampede just to make Skullcrushers decent.

I have to second that they are not a good unit.

Very cool looking models though.

That’s the biggest shame.  That such cool looking models are so mediocre in the grand scheme of things.  

 

4 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

Literally the entire Scourge Privateers faction.

Think about it...:

The faction is Fleetmaster, Corsairs, Kharibdyss and Scourgerunner Chariots.

All four of these warscrolls are absolutely wretched and, while Corsairs may not be over-priced, who would want to paint 160 of them in a horde?

And these are also such cool looking models.  Such cool models let down by poor rules.  I’m sensing a pattern here.....

 

[rattila]

50 minutes ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

That’s the biggest shame.  That such cool looking models are so mediocre in the grand scheme of things.  

 

And these are also such cool looking models.  Such cool models let down by poor rules.  I’m sensing a pattern here.....

 

Same for Allopexes... maybe in the next edition all of them will have good rules and more people will buy them. o/

[PlasticCraic]

18 hours ago, rattila said:

Same for Allopexes... maybe in the next edition all of them will have good rules and more people will buy them. o/

Allopexes are the new Gunhaulers.  There must be a warehouse stuffed full of these amazing, useless, unsold models somewhere. 

Coming soon, to a Start Collecting box near you...

[Roark]

On 10/10/2018 at 2:54 PM, 123lac said:

You have to structure your whole army around Brass Stampede just to make Skullcrushers decent.

I have to second that they are not a good unit.

The guy you replied to said they are far from bad, and I agree - Skullcrushers definitely don't belong in a thread titled "What are the worst warscrolls". In addition to all the features he listed, they've always got a Rend option, they're Bravery 9 as soon as they kill something (anything), and they get double of any buffs to attacks (of which there are quite a few in Khorne) due to the mount.

Again, I think people are hung up on their stats not matching the fluff, but I think there's far worse out there. Not a butthurt fanboy or anything, I just honestly don't get it.

[HollowHills]

19 hours ago, rattila said:

Same for Allopexes... maybe in the next edition all of them will have good rules and more people will buy them. o/

 

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

Allopexes are the new Gunhaulers.  There must be a warehouse stuffed full of these amazing, useless, unsold models somewhere. 

Coming soon, to a Start Collecting box near you...

I don't think allopexes are that bad. If you look at their attacks they have decent damage output with a little shooting which is nice. They are just probably the third choice you'd want to take at that point cost in a deepkin army behind ishlaen and thralls. 

The unit they are most similar to is the khorgoraths, 8 w 4+ monsters with similar damage output. The difference being khorgis have a couple of nice rules and the shark just gets to reroll charges if they shot something. Oh and that one is about 50 points cheaper. 

In my view they should have given the allopexes another special rule something like;

Feeding Frenzy: At the end of the combat phase choose a unit within 3" that suffered one or more wounds from this unit during the phase. This unit can be chosen to pile in and attack again. 

I think that would be a fun thematic rule that would give sharks a place in the army. 

Unfortunately, I think the Idoneth suffer a bit from overly cautious rules. I know that might seem odd when you see how strong their eel list is but really that's just one particular combo. 

A lot of their abilities are wholly within rather than within, they lack useful battalions and other than the eels several units are hampered by their rules. 

Consider the eidolon Aspect of the Sea, 440 points for a model who admittedly has an on paper decent scroll. However, the fact he doesn't have any innate boosts to his casting coupled with the 30" inch unbind makes him a weak caster for the points. A Lord of Change or Mortarch can completely shut down his ability to cast. 

I would have changed his reroll a failed cast to "choose to reroll one dice when you cast a spell". 

The king and volturnous command ability isn't the best either. Of course an extra attack is great but it only works wholly within and in the third hero phase. Compared to knight of shrouds or a megaboss or the stormcast storm host ability that all do the same thing but without restrictions. 

Even the Leviadon, awesome model that it is, isn't great for the cost. 

Anyway while I'd like to see actual tweaks to the scrolls I fully expect to see eels rocket up in points probably to 200 for morsarr and 180 for ishlaen. The soulscryer to hit 120, reavers to hit 120, thralls to stay at 140, the shark to stay at 140, both eidolons to hit 400, king and vol to stay the same, lotann at 80, the tidecaster and render to stay at 100, turtle to stay the same. 

[Badlander86]

On 10/10/2018 at 2:13 AM, Tailessine said:

Yeah KO ships at least get a prize for unfluffiest warscrolls, as they prevent (when being remotely competitive) the faction being the shipborne, mobile, heavy hitting force they are meant to be. 

Again, the ships for the KO Warscrolls. +3 Save on the Ironclad is a must. No excuse why it shouldn't be. +4 on the Frigates.

KO has a severe lack of dealing Mortal Wounds. Now that the Orks in 40K are rumored to have some kind of "crash" or "ram" mechanic for their vehicles,  KO should be able to do the same. Maybe after charging, roll a dice, on 3+ (but lets be real, they'll make it 4+) deals 1 Mortal Wound. Basically it the Brokk Grungsson charge mechanic.

[Yoshiya]

9 minutes ago, Badlander86 said:

Again, the ships for the KO Warscrolls. +3 Save on the Ironclad is a must. No excuse why it shouldn't be. +4 on the Frigates.

KO has a severe lack of dealing Mortal Wounds. Now that the Orks in 40K are rumored to have some kind of "crash" or "ram" mechanic for their vehicles,  KO should be able to do the same. Maybe after charging, roll a dice, on 3+ (but lets be real, they'll make it 4+) deals 1 Mortal Wound. Basically it the Brokk Grungsson charge mechanic.

A crash mechanic makes little sense for KO as these are flying vehicles that never touch the ground. Maybe if you worded it to only work against monsters I can see justification but no way a giant Ironclad is going low enough to crash into a line of rank and file foot soldiers. (I know you can argue with the same logic that in that case they shouldn't be attackable but that's a gameplay decision rather a fluffy rule decision like this would be).

[Arkanaut Admiral]

22 hours ago, rattila said:

Same for Allopexes... maybe in the next edition all of them will have good rules and more people will buy them. o/

How do you mess up a big flying shark GW? ?

3 hours ago, HollowHills said:

 

I don't think allopexes are that bad. If you look at their attacks they have decent damage output with a little shooting which is nice. They are just probably the third choice you'd want to take at that point cost in a deepkin army behind ishlaen and thralls. 

The unit they are most similar to is the khorgoraths, 8 w 4+ monsters with similar damage output. The difference being khorgis have a couple of nice rules and the shark just gets to reroll charges if they shot something. Oh and that one is about 50 points cheaper. 

In my view they should have given the allopexes another special rule something like;

Feeding Frenzy: At the end of the combat phase choose a unit within 3" that suffered one or more wounds from this unit during the phase. This unit can be chosen to pile in and attack again. 

I think that would be a fun thematic rule that would give sharks a place in the army. 

Unfortunately, I think the Idoneth suffer a bit from overly cautious rules. I know that might seem odd when you see how strong their eel list is but really that's just one particular combo. 

A lot of their abilities are wholly within rather than within, they lack useful battalions and other than the eels several units are hampered by their rules. 

Consider the eidolon Aspect of the Sea, 440 points for a model who admittedly has an on paper decent scroll. However, the fact he doesn't have any innate boosts to his casting coupled with the 30" inch unbind makes him a weak caster for the points. A Lord of Change or Mortarch can completely shut down his ability to cast. 

I would have changed his reroll a failed cast to "choose to reroll one dice when you cast a spell". 

The king and volturnous command ability isn't the best either. Of course an extra attack is great but it only works wholly within and in the third hero phase. Compared to knight of shrouds or a megaboss or the stormcast storm host ability that all do the same thing but without restrictions. 

Even the Leviadon, awesome model that it is, isn't great for the cost. 

Anyway while I'd like to see actual tweaks to the scrolls I fully expect to see eels rocket up in points probably to 200 for morsarr and 180 for ishlaen. The soulscryer to hit 120, reavers to hit 120, thralls to stay at 140, the shark to stay at 140, both eidolons to hit 400, king and vol to stay the same, lotann at 80, the tidecaster and render to stay at 100, turtle to stay the same. 

I like that Feeding Frenzy rule.  Would that be in addition to its current wording?  Make them go crazy when there’s blood in the water.

 

2 hours ago, Badlander86 said:

Again, the ships for the KO Warscrolls. +3 Save on the Ironclad is a must. No excuse why it shouldn't be. +4 on the Frigates.

KO has a severe lack of dealing Mortal Wounds. Now that the Orks in 40K are rumored to have some kind of "crash" or "ram" mechanic for their vehicles,  KO should be able to do the same. Maybe after charging, roll a dice, on 3+ (but lets be real, they'll make it 4+) deals 1 Mortal Wound. Basically it the Brokk Grungsson charge mechanic.

This is a good point, and was something I was getting at before.  My suggestion would be to allow the bombs to be dropped on the charge as well.  Anything to make the ships more aggressive.  I don’t know exactly how to do it but do it.

Would it be OP if the ships dropped their bombs in the hero phase?  So that you could bomb units in that phase, and then retreat away from them?  Because I’ll be honest, I hate how easy it is to ‘trap’ our ships.  They should be slow moving juggernauts, very easy to catch, almost impossible to stop.

Except for the gunhauler.  Imo, that should be a fast moving fighter plane, which is isn’t atm.  In addition to a 4+ save (don’t argue, most chariots get it :D), it should be able to retreat and shoot in the same turn.  I’m really adamant about that.

[HollowHills]

13 minutes ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

*trim*

I think you could keep the current rule of rerolling charges for the sharks, it requires them to have done damage with the shooting attacks and there are other ways to reroll charges so it isn't great as it is.

Re: Overlords. I think they should have a bonus to save vs shooting, that represents how sturdy the ships are while melee combat would more represent crew vs borders so a 4+ makes sense.

Also think they should have an ability to retreat and shoot. KO are far too weak in the current meta.

[Dan.Ford]

All Exalted daemons and Skaarac Bloodborn are overcosted for a 4 up save models, their command abilities etc 

[TheWilddog]

Hellpit Abomination and/or Doomwheel

I know these two scrolls are not the absolute worst but they are pretty bad and compared to what they were in Old Hammer it's just saddening. They both have random movement which is the absolute pits. The Doomwheel has random attacks for both its shooting attack and one of its melee attacks, plus it can go haywire and hurt you. Blah! Both have no real offensive punch and their saves are nothing to write home about. I just don't know what role either is supposed to fill. 

They are both such great models, I want to get them to the table!!! However, ever time I field them they just make me sad. 

[Arkanaut Admiral]

This thread raises all sorts of questions about what makes a good unit.  I want all units to be effective and worth taking but not to the extent that they’re auto includes.  Nor do I want units that can just outright delete most enemy units without any effort (I’ve been on the receiving end of that so many times XD).  Units that throw out mortal wounds like they’re confetti whilst shrugging off everything you throw at them grind my gears. 

What do you guys think?

 

[JackStreicher]

32 minutes ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

This thread raises all sorts of questions about what makes a good unit.  I want all units to be effective and worth taking but not to the extent that they’re auto includes.  Nor do I want units that can just outright delete most enemy units without any effort (I’ve been on the receiving end of that so many times XD).  Units that throw out mortal wounds like they’re confetti whilst shrugging off everything you throw at them grind my gears. 

What do you guys think?

 

A good warscroll:

an obvious strength and a obvious weakness. All in one package for an amount of points that represents their strength while neither be too low costed to be an auto-include nor too high costed that no one would pick it.

Example of a bad Warscroll with explanation:

Drakespawn Chariots:

A lack of damage: with their few attacks and meager output due to either wounding or hitting on 4s with no Rend they have no killing power. Mortal wounds on a 6 when charging for Models within 1“ is unreliable and too restricted to be useful.

A lack of tankiness: It has a huge Base so a lot of potential attacks can easily target the chariot. The 4+ save is okay. It has only 6 wounds.

too high points: it‘s costs of 80pts is almost the cost of an Infantry unit of 10 Dreadspears which has more wounds, a better save and a higher damage potential (they hit easier).

=== no strengths + too high costs -> only weaknesses.

The fix:

Fix either one of the 3 categories completely or two of them slightly.

[123lac]

17 hours ago, Roark said:

The guy you replied to said they are far from bad, and I agree - Skullcrushers definitely don't belong in a thread titled "What are the worst warscrolls". In addition to all the features he listed, they've always got a Rend option, they're Bravery 9 as soon as they kill something (anything), and they get double of any buffs to attacks (of which there are quite a few in Khorne) due to the mount.

Again, I think people are hung up on their stats not matching the fluff, but I think there's far worse out there. Not a butthurt fanboy or anything, I just honestly don't get it.

Maybe we are arguing over glass half full / glass half empty perspectives, haha.

I agree Skullcrushers are not the worst warscrolls for Khorne, which is what this thread is about.

Bloodcrushers are worse.

[Yoshiya]

I don't agree that points have anything to do with a warscroll being bad. That's merely a case of balance and is kind of external to the warscroll itself.

Afterall, a small points adjustment and a 'bad' warscroll becomes a good one with no other change.

A bad warscroll in my mind is one that a) doesn't match the fluff (at the end of the day AoS is about recreating what you imagine to be an epic battle and if they don't match the fluff you can do that) and b) the rules aren't overly fiddly or counter intuitive.

I'd also add that a bad warscroll fails to keep within the overall direction of the game and looks comparable to other similar warscrolls in the game.

Regarding the latter, I think that things like the Evocators mortal wound ability is a case of a rule that doesn't keep with the overall elite mortal wound dealing rules in the game.

For example compare it to Kurnoth Hunters who are the same points with a similar rule and you see they only have a 1" range, roll at the end of the phase (meaning opponents can shut them down first) and most importantly, only roll one dice each. Evocators however can use it immediately after attacking each turn, can hit a unit they didn't attack directly, and by rolling two dice each effectively guarantee a mortal wound per model.

In my mind that rule is bad because it's too efficient, with little counter play and too much consistency.