What are the worst Warscrolls and Why?

[Skreech Verminking]

Skavenslaves.

they are known to be thrown at the enemeny like trash and they are known to be more numerous than any other skaven unit.

but for some reason they cost 20points more then clanrats do 1-2attacks which only hits on 5 or 6 and wound on 4.

also they aren’t Battleline anymore, and so it makes no sense to even take them.

in aos Calvary seems to have gotten the short edge of the stick.

most of them will die horrible cannot do damage at all, and cost for some reason a fortune on points.

[Enoby]

The Fiend of Slaanesh is pretty rubbish. In an army that is already overwhelmingly fast and has rend on 99% of models, the fiends bring nothing new and are just meh at everything. They're much slower than seekers, get fewer attacks, do about the same damage (2.5~ against a 4+ save), and they still die to a stiff breeze. All of this for 140 points. The only thing they do have is a -1 to hit them, but if I wanted a -1 to hit I'd just take Hellstriders as they help other units as well as themselves, give the negative in the shooting and combat phase, are faster, and 40 points cheaper. I think one of the most annoying things is that their claws don't have rend normally - you have a roll a 6+ to wound to get -2 rend on them. It just doesn't feel right, especially when daemonettes always have rend and their claws are much sharper. 

Basically, the fiends need to have a proper role and their abilities should be tied to this role, because at the moment they perform as well as they look. 

To top it off, at least Skull Crushers, Gore Gruntas, and Chaos Knights look awesome. The Fiends of Slaanesh are monopose (despite coming in units of 3), cost a lot of money for a unit, and are a contender for the worst looking model ever. 

[Mcthew]

Yeah, the new updates this year didn't really do much to improve any of the weak warscrolls which is a real shame, and a lost opportunity. Not sure why either.

I've previously posted annoyance at the SE Prosecutors "flannel-attack at distance" (the ole flinging celestial hammers thing) as being just a bit wee-poor, but SkullCrushers were pants. And are still pants.

What gets me is that GW must realise that people aren't just buying these models 'cos they look cool. They've also got to play cool too. A scary looking brute who prances into battle like a pansy is going to be shelved and gathering dust within a month, so why do it? Doesn't make much business sense to me. I've stopped myself from buying heavy cavalry for Khorne for precisely that reason, and another Kharadron Frigate (because for a big-ass gun, on the tabletop it's about as effective as throwing a custard-pie at the enemy).

I don't mind paying higher points for something that should play as effectively as it looks, and this stops me from shelling out on big monsters and machines, which should be a licence to print money for GW. Sense wise, you get more bang for your buck on mid-powered units of troops than behemoths or war machines.

Which is a truly weird way to go about any business. If they don't want people to use them, why make 'em at all?

[Enoby]

47 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

Yeah, the new updates this year didn't really do much to improve any of the weak warscrolls which is a real shame, and a lost opportunity. Not sure why either.

I've previously posted annoyance at the SE Prosecutors "flannel-attack at distance" (the ole flinging celestial hammers thing) as being just a bit wee-poor, but SkullCrushers were pants. And are still pants.

What gets me is that GW must realise that people aren't just buying these models 'cos they look cool. They've also got to play cool too. A scary looking brute who prances into battle like a pansy is going to be shelved and gathering dust within a month, so why do it? Doesn't make much business sense to me. I've stopped myself from buying heavy cavalry for Khorne for precisely that reason, and another Kharadron Frigate (because for a big-ass gun, on the tabletop it's about as effective as throwing a custard-pie at the enemy).

I don't mind paying higher points for something that should play as effectively as it looks, and this stops me from shelling out on big monsters and machines, which should be a licence to print money for GW. Sense wise, you get more bang for your buck on mid-powered units of troops than behemoths or war machines.

Which is a truly weird way to go about any business. If they don't want people to use them, why make 'em at all?

I think this is a really good point, and has been echoed a few times already in this thread - points increases and descreases aren't enough, warscrolls should suit the model. When Archaon swoops in with pitiful rend and rather rubbish damage, we don't think "wow, this guy should be cheaper" but rather "wow, how did this guy become the Everchosen?". When a model feels like a wet noodle it's not very satisfying to use them, regardless of their points. 

One of the things I love about 40k is that big models like knights feel epic and as powerful as they should be. Archaon should feel the same way - the opponent shouldn't think "meh, it's Archaon, I can probably hold him up for a turn or two" they should think "holy Sigmar's hammer, I need to put everything into this guy if I stand a chance of surviving", even if this increases his points cost. 

[Ravinsild]

3 hours ago, Enoby said:

I think this is a really good point, and has been echoed a few times already in this thread - points increases and descreases aren't enough, warscrolls should suit the model. When Archaon swoops in with pitiful rend and rather rubbish damage, we don't think "wow, this guy should be cheaper" but rather "wow, how did this guy become the Everchosen?". When a model feels like a wet noodle it's not very satisfying to use them, regardless of their points. 

One of the things I love about 40k is that big models like knights feel epic and as powerful as they should be. Archaon should feel the same way - the opponent shouldn't think "meh, it's Archaon, I can probably hold him up for a turn or two" they should think "holy Sigmar's hammer, I need to put everything into this guy if I stand a chance of surviving", even if this increases his points cost. 

I think the problem is that typically the most damaging weapon in very rare circumstances is 3 damage and the most rend which is very rare is -2.... 

whereas in 40k things can and do often deal D6 damage not just random one off models and you can pretty easily get -3 to -4 AP, so jacked up models also have jacked up counters. 

In AoS everything is flatter so if you made some super crazy Titan-like thing it would be so broken it might as well be banned from ever seeing play because nothing can kill it... at least not efficiently. 

I may be wrong on this but it makes sense to me. AoS feels diluted compared to 40k, most things have a terrible save, most rend is weak but its enough to counter the terrible rend and damage carries over so its easier to kill small things but more difficult to kill big things. 

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, Ravinsild said:

I think the problem is that typically the most damaging weapon in very rare circumstances is 3 damage and the most rend which is very rare is -2.... 

whereas in 40k things can and do often deal D6 damage not just random one off models and you can pretty easily get -3 to -4 AP, so jacked up models also have jacked up counters. 

In AoS everything is flatter so if you made some super crazy Titan-like thing it would be so broken it might as well be banned from ever seeing play because nothing can kill it... at least not efficiently. 

I may be wrong on this but it makes sense to me. AoS feels diluted compared to 40k, most things have a terrible save, most rend is weak but its enough to counter the terrible rend and damage carries over so its easier to kill small things but more difficult to kill big things. 

I get what you're saying, and I partially agree (we shouldn't have anything titan-like in AoS), but some models like Archaon and the varanguard are weak compared to other AoS models. When you look at the potential damage of the exalted Keeper of Secrets (may have the highest damage per combat phase of any model with its command ability and the fact it can take artefacts) and compare it to Archaon, you have to wonder how he beat all of those other greater daemons (unless Slayer of Kings was just feeling lucky that day). It ends up looking like the only thing he's exceptional at is letting other people use command abilities. 

For example, Archaon only does 9 damage on average in a combat phase against a 4+ save. A bog standard keeper of secrets does 6 wounds on average, and 12 with its command ability. That doesn't seem right - Archaon shouldn't have comparible DPR to the weakest of the great daemons - he should be blowing them out of the water. Even giving his sword -3 rend and the claws -2 would help alleviate this, and make him feel like the Everchosen rather than the Neverchosen. 

[JackStreicher]

Imo Archaon should have died with the old world - that depressive, childish wimp.

 

but I get what you mean.

most Warscrolls could be easily fixed by just adding +1 Attack, +1 to hit or the generic +1 to wound and damage on the charge - but GW ignores the WSs.

 

Varanguard is quite nice though: Hits as hard as 3 Chaos Lords while costing less.

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

I get what you're saying, and I partially agree (we shouldn't have anything titan-like in AoS), but some models like Archaon and the varanguard are weak compared to other AoS models. When you look at the potential damage of the exalted Keeper of Secrets (may have the highest damage per combat phase of any model with its command ability and the fact it can take artefacts) and compare it to Archaon, you have to wonder how he beat all of those other greater daemons (unless Slayer of Kings was just feeling lucky that day). It ends up looking like the only thing he's exceptional at is letting other people use command abilities. 

For example, Archaon only does 9 damage on average in a combat phase against a 4+ save. A bog standard keeper of secrets does 6 wounds on average, and 12 with its command ability. That doesn't seem right - Archaon shouldn't have comparible DPR to the weakest of the great daemons - he should be blowing them out of the water. Even giving his sword -3 rend and the claws -2 would help alleviate this, and make him feel like the Everchosen rather than the Neverchosen. 

Oh I see what you mean. 

Basically the lore hierarchy does not reflect the Warscroll game Hierarchy. 

Sometimes it does (Nagash) but sometimes the best possible thing for a faction is somehow worse than something it should by default be better than, or rather some things which are good in the lore but not exceptional are too good in the game itself. 

So basically either Archaon is too weak (probably) or the Keeper of Secrets is too strong (possibly) or both simultaneously (probably). 

Basically greater demons are the best of the best but Archaon is better than them except for SKARBRAND but he doesn’t count. Khorne flicked him across the universe for trying to hit him and doing no damage. 

[Forrix]

I'm kinda surprised people think Archaon is so weak. I mean, if you don't take advantage of his command trait or keywords or other special abilities and just plow him into bricks of battleline troops you'll be hard pressed to get your points back with him but that's ignoring everything that makes him unique. Stack the buffs up on him and watch him go 20+ inches across the board to insta-kill a couple of monsters and/or heroes with bonus attacks, 5+ or better trigger for his sword, and two activations. With 20 wounds, 3+ save, The eye of Shireen, mortal wound and spell protection he's easily one of the toughest models in the entire game. You can take a harbinger for an extra 5+ save too if you really want.

[Enoby]

8 minutes ago, Forrix said:

I'm kinda surprised people think Archaon is so weak. I mean, if you don't take advantage of his command trait or keywords or other special abilities and just plow him into bricks of battleline troops you'll be hard pressed to get your points back with him but that's ignoring everything that makes him unique. Stack the buffs up on him and watch him go 20+ inches across the board to insta-kill a couple of monsters and/or heroes with bonus attacks, 5+ or better trigger for his sword, and two activations. With 20 wounds, 3+ save, The eye of Shireen, mortal wound and spell protection he's easily one of the toughest models in the entire game. You can take a harbinger for an extra 5+ save too if you really want.

It's less that he's weak full stop, but more that he's weak on his own. For example, the exalted keeper of secrets is pretty much self sufficient; sure, it needs a command point, command trait and artefact to reach its full potential, but those are not more costly than the model on its own.

Archaon needs a self esteem team to help him reach that level. That's not saying he's bad, but the Everchosen should be amazing on his own and then even better with friends. You can spend 140 points to get him to pile in and attack twice, 160 points for the 5+ ward save, or however much more to give him the edge and make him scary. His base stats don't feel like an apocalypse, but rather a mildly annoyed zombie dragon. 

[Bellfree]

Tempestors and Desolators, not because they're actually the worst warscrolls in the game, but because they got made worse for no reason and didn't even drop points.

[Ravinsild]

Does point cost factor into being good or bad? 

Allegedly Blood Knights are 100 points too expensive for what they do/are...? 

So that begs the question: if you get 5 at 140 points and everything is the exact same except the point cost: is it still bad? 

[EMMachine]

9 hours ago, Forrix said:

I'm kinda surprised people think Archaon is so weak. I mean, if you don't take advantage of his command trait or keywords or other special abilities and just plow him into bricks of battleline troops you'll be hard pressed to get your points back with him but that's ignoring everything that makes him unique. Stack the buffs up on him and watch him go 20+ inches across the board to insta-kill a couple of monsters and/or heroes with bonus attacks, 5+ or better trigger for his sword, and two activations. With 20 wounds, 3+ save, The eye of Shireen, mortal wound and spell protection he's easily one of the toughest models in the entire game. You can take a harbinger for an extra 5+ save too if you really want.

 

11 hours ago, Enoby said:

I get what you're saying, and I partially agree (we shouldn't have anything titan-like in AoS), but some models like Archaon and the varanguard are weak compared to other AoS models. When you look at the potential damage of the exalted Keeper of Secrets (may have the highest damage per combat phase of any model with its command ability and the fact it can take artefacts) and compare it to Archaon, you have to wonder how he beat all of those other greater daemons (unless Slayer of Kings was just feeling lucky that day). It ends up looking like the only thing he's exceptional at is letting other people use command abilities. 

For example, Archaon only does 9 damage on average in a combat phase against a 4+ save. A bog standard keeper of secrets does 6 wounds on average, and 12 with its command ability. That doesn't seem right - Archaon shouldn't have comparible DPR to the weakest of the great daemons - he should be blowing them out of the water. Even giving his sword -3 rend and the claws -2 would help alleviate this, and make him feel like the Everchosen rather than the Neverchosen. 

Hm, but Archaon still has the highest potential damage. I mean. The keeper of secrets can make a maximum damage of 18 (without looking for Artefacts of Command Traits) and the exalted keeper of Secrets can make a maximum damage of 26, while Archaon has a potential damage of 42 with Melee Weapons only.

I think this is one of the main reason for his high cost.

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

 

Hm, but Archaon still has the highest potential damage. I mean. The keeper of secrets can make a maximum damage of 18 (without looking for Artefacts of Command Traits) and the exalted keeper of Secrets can make a maximum damage of 26, while Archaon has a potential damage of 42 with Melee Weapons only.

I think this is one of the main reason for his high cost.

That's a good point. When I've used him, he's been a bit of a flunk - especially with some attacks having a 4+ to hit and his rend never going above -1. I think that his low average damage makes him feel unlike what the Everchosen should be. 

That said, the exalted greater daemon of Slaanesh has a max damage of 52 with its own command ability (I know you said no artefacts or command traits, but the command ability is on the warscroll itself). 

[EMMachine]

19 minutes ago, Enoby said:

That's a good point. When I've used him, he's been a bit of a flunk - especially with some attacks having a 4+ to hit and his rend never going above -1. I think that his low average damage makes him feel unlike what the Everchosen should be. 

That said, the exalted greater daemon of Slaanesh has a max damage of 52 with its own command ability (I know you said no artefacts or command traits, but the command ability is on the warscroll itself). 

If you mean the Ability that lets a SLAANESH DEAMON fight twice. If having both models on the field the exalted greater daemon of Slaanesh could also use the ability on Archaon (after he also has SLAANESH and DEAMON, boosting his maximal potential on 84.

With the Keyword combo CHAOS, DEAMON, MORTAL, KHORNE, NURGLE, SLAANESH, TZEENTCH. Archaon can be buffed by nearly anything.

[Mikeymajq]

My new favourite worst unit is the glaivewraith stalkers. For the not so amazing prize of 4 models for 60 pts you get ghosts that aren't much better than your basic cannonfodder but with under half the amount of wounds/models. They have that wierd unit size of 4 instead of 5 for some reason. The only special thing about them is retreat and charge from the unit champion, but just to take away any redeeming factor, Bladegheists have that too and they are better in almost every aspect, making the stalkers even more reduntant. (Also you get 5 of them in the soul wars box even though their min size is 4 and that just irritates me)  

[Mcthew]

18 minutes ago, Mikeymajq said:

My new favourite worst unit is the glaivewraith stalkers. For the not so amazing prize of 4 models for 60 pts you get ghosts that aren't much better than your basic cannonfodder but with under half the amount of wounds/models. They have that wierd unit size of 4 instead of 5 for some reason. The only special thing about them is retreat and charge from the unit champion, but just to take away any redeeming factor, Bladegheists have that too and they are better in almost every aspect, making the stalkers even more reduntant. (Also you get 5 of them in the soul wars box even though their min size is 4 and that just irritates me)  

Yeah, and in all honesty, been finding Nighthaunt a little underwhelming, but then I'm not an experienced AoS gamer. I think Nighthaunt are for those who can combine strengths etc to maximum strategic effect. For a relative novice (just a few battles under my belt) trying to get the best out of Nighthaunt is proving to be a pain in the ass. 

I guess that doesn't mean they're rubbish - just not for the newbie (I've always felt they were an odd choice for a starter set - Khorne were always more straightforward).

Entry level armies, on the other hand, are tending to have the worst war scrolls because they as effective as a handful of daisies, and, as we've pointed out in a parallel thread, their appears to be a rules disconnect in GW somewhere...

[Mikeymajq]

2 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

Yeah, and in all honesty, been finding Nighthaunt a little underwhelming, but then I'm not an experienced AoS gamer. I think Nighthaunt are for those who can combine strengths etc to maximum strategic effect. For a relative novice (just a few battles under my belt) trying to get the best out of Nighthaunt is proving to be a pain in the ass. 

I guess that doesn't mean they're rubbish - just not for the newbie (I've always felt they were an odd choice for a starter set - Khorne were always more straightforward).

Entry level armies, on the other hand, are tending to have the worst war scrolls because they as effective as a handful of daisies, and, as we've pointed out in a parallel thread, their appears to be a rules disconnect in GW somewhere...

For sure. I think Nighthaunt might have gotten a bit hyped up on their powerlevel at release and now we're finding them to be sortof middle ground.

What I've feel is that they feel very swingy, either you will hit hard as heck and almost feel sorry for your opponent , but then again you might hit like a soft marshmallow and just stand there getting pummeled and it feels like you can't really do anything about it. And I think that's just how it is for a glass cannon army, that unfortunately I think mostly deserves the cannon part of glass cannon when/if you roll high enough on the charge to procc wave of terror. 

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

If you mean the Ability that lets a SLAANESH DEAMON fight twice. If having both models on the field the exalted greater daemon of Slaanesh could also use the ability on Archaon (after he also has SLAANESH and DEAMON, boosting his maximal potential on 84.

With the Keyword combo CHAOS, DEAMON, MORTAL, KHORNE, NURGLE, SLAANESH, TZEENTCH. Archaon can be buffed by nearly anything.

Yup, that's true. But as I don't find Archaon needing a self esteem team to reach his Everchosen potential to be fitting. I think I mentioned it before, but he isn't bad - it's just his warscroll on its own isn't befitting of his title. He was meant to slay things like the exalted greater daemons, but he looks meek in comparison (when using his average damage) unless he has help. 

For example, just using the warscrolls of the two models and nothing else, Archaon had an average damage of 9~ against a 4+ save. The Exalted Greater Daemon of Slaanesh has an average damage of 10, or 20 with its own command ability. That's not to say the daemon is better, but rather Archaon doesn't feel all that flashy in combat and that seems wrong.

I don't necessarily think it's bad design to have a big monster that can be buffed by everyone (I think it's a cool idea), but Archaon doesn't seem like an Everchosen most of the time.

I think a lot of this came from when his warscroll was created. As we had no points, I think GW were a little cautious to make a single model super powerful. It's understandable, because having a pay to win model would be bad for the game and community. Now we have points, however, Archaon could be made stronger on his own. 

[amysrevenge]

I see that I have posted in this thread, but I don't remember what I said.  I'll go look afterward and see how it compares.

They probably weren't out yet at that time, but Castigators are right up there for me.

Varanguard are underwhelming, in a power:lore ratio sort of way.

Lord-Veritant.  Why?

Edit: Added a quote from my old post.  Hahahaha

On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:15 AM, amysrevenge said:

I don't have any new units to add - my picks are already in here.

• Dragon Ogors. So disappointing.  As a completely objective voice, who totally doesn't have 25+ old metal DOs (as well as 6 of the shiny new plastic ones), I really wish they were worth fielding.
• Light and medium chariots.  Take up so much real estate on the board, to practically zero effect.

[yarrickson]

The Lord Exorcist. Same points as the Knight Incantor but without the lovely spirit vials or dispel scroll. He gets a couple of short ranged mortal wound abilities and that's it. Just to rub it in he's not allowed a magic staff or scroll.

[Furuzzolo]

The Dispossessed hero Unforged. 100 points cost for a crippled Grimwrath Berserker (80 points. Fyreslayers)

[heywoah_twitch]

On 3/10/2017 at 7:12 PM, Nico said:

They are a bit overcosted, however, every new Battletome is bringing more goodies. In a few months' time, Thundertusks and Stonelords will be yesterday's filth and just another strong list.

Nostradamus over here calling the shots mostly right, athough even he didn't realize how far down bcr would fall. Rock bottom as essentially ally-tier for mixed GA. One frostlord with a realm artefact sometimes appears in mixed destruction, everything else is 404.

I can't miss an opportunity to grumble about my army, so here we go:

Stone Skeleton Fluff: "there are few things that can do them any real harm. Even if a Stonehorn’s skin is shorn away, the hard mineral skeleton beneath remains unharmed. The price for this hardiness, however, is that if the beast stands still for too long its joints might fuse together as its rock bones grow."

On The Table: the crappiest, rustiest 1-damage battleline weapons will drop a stonehorn with the greatest of ease, completely bypassing stone skeleton.

They really missed an opportunity to make stonehorns the anti-horde tanks we desperately need. Though now that I think about it, before the nerf that's what they were. Effectively having 60% of the wounds of your average massive regiment for a similar cost, though now it's just 12.
 

Icebrow Hunter bears special mention as a comically bad warscroll. As the only cheap hero we have, he is a 140 point footslogger with no CA/spells/prayers, a 5+ save, bad attacks with no rend, two short-range single shot bad ranged attacks, a 6" range 4+ d3mw that you have to give up your other two ranged shots to try for, and an ambush that can't bring anything else along, unlike, say, a 100 point hero who can bring 30 vulkites or two different IDK units of any kind. But for another 150 points you can bring cats (only) along with a battalion.

That's a staggering 370 points to ambush one hunter and four frost saber models. You can get 30 witch aelves and a hag queen for 40 fewer points.

And he locks your cheapest battleline behind a paywall of him being your general, which works anti-synergistically with everwinter's master so you can't reroll the dice while he's not on the table turn 1.

2nd edition updates to the old battletomes can't come soon enough.

[TheMuphinMan]

Especially considering points, stormvermin. Paying over twice the points for clanrats for +1 to save, 1 more attack and -1 rend

[JackStreicher]

6 hours ago, TheMuphinMan said:

Especially considering points, stormvermin. Paying over twice the points for clanrats for +1 to save, 1 more attack and -1 rend

You pay extra for style