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What are the worst Warscrolls and Why?


Ben

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2 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Since when has cav( or similar sort of role with vehicles) in military action ever been used as a tank unit ?

"Hey! You, fast unit with incredible hitting power, trott up to those fellows over there with big pointy sticks and stay there for a while while the foot soldiers catch up, flank you say? Pfft, we've no one to flank them "

That sort of command for a army is best suited for blackadder (goes forth to be specific and is probably best read in lord melchetts voice https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=TiXp9fUhjU0 )

 

I would actually go out on a limb here and say that Cavalry is most intended to exploit breakthroughs and to bog down enemy lines and redirect reinforcements from the primary battleline. Sure they CAN hit hard, but its a one trick pony and they will need to hit and run to maintain their advantage (something light cavalry does) since more often then not their lances were lost on the initial charge. I agree that they should hit harder on the charge but being a tank seems far more fitting for heavy cavalry.   I see cavalry as something is a big mobile distraction that can plug up the holes in my lines and exploit theirs. A lot of historical cavalry seems to be loaded with ranged weapons to harry the enemy flanks and cause confusion until they can find a weak point to exploit, which is well represented in things like HE reavers. The armored ones also seemed to be built around the idea of getting stuck in hard with the enemy serving as a massive distraction now that you have a metal covered man riding a metal covered horse running around the insides of your lines swinging a hammer at people. 

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As a Brayherd Player: The Beastlord, he dies so easy, that´s kind of impossible to use his command abilitiy, because he has to kill a enemy model first. When he slays a model, he dies most of the time in the same turn -this is the reason Gorthor (from compendium) is kind of an autoinclude for Monobrayherd...

And Chaoshounds und Centigors...give them proper key words!

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Mournghoul.... because that guys is stupid for his points and what he does.  The WORST. 

You mean how he contributes to every phase of the game, doing something in the hero phase, shooting mortal wounds using breath attack in the shooting phase; and trivially makes first turn 24 to 30" effective charges; and is a hero so can be buffed through the roof using artefacts and has keywords which allow him to be buffed even further.

Oh wait, none of the above is true. He's a medium speed tank with a defensive debuff aura (and Stormcast now have several of these protective auras - the good kind where they protect nearby friendly units instead of the bad kind where they debuff enemy units and so don't help against pew pew). He's pretty choppy but isn't particularly easy to buff. He's not fast enough to get anywhere he likes on the table. Feed him chaff and hit the retreat button. Or pin him with a tough hero of your own. Never even try to kill him (unless the Battleplan mandates this e.g. Take and Hold if you need a major). There are plenty of other good monsters out there. 

I beat a Mourngul list using a Grot army, by tanking him for one turn with Gordrakk and then retreating away.

 

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As a Brayherd Player: The Beastlord, he dies so easy, that´s kind of impossible to use his command abilitiy, because he has to kill a enemy model first. When he slays a model, he dies most of the time in the same turn -this is the reason Gorthor (from compendium) is kind of an autoinclude for Monobrayherd...

Agreed - he is in the top five worst command abilities, but can anyone unseat Kazyk the Befouled? 

It's staggeringly bad. The other one that infuriates me is the Warden King - he's so squishy and yet you cannot even use his command ability if you go first, as the enemy will be out of range. He should have a copy of the one on the Royal Warsphinx.

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Sayl: reduce his 18" spell to 12"

The Sayl hate looks particularly misguided. The beauty of AoS is that the game rarely descends into (a) a big scrum in the middle and a pure battle between choppy and tanky - with tanky usually winning; or (b) a repeat of the Battle of the Somme - pointless waves of melee troops running into gunlines with the battered remnants bouncing off the defences. Much of the reason for this is that there are so many "movement tricks" in the game and they are so varied (teleporting; deepstriking; fast movement in the movement phase; staying off the table; Sylvaneth Wyldwoods; Dreadwood Wargrove; summoning; tunneling Fyreslayers; infiltrate off the edge; DoT swaps; and now Stormcast Chocobo movement - I'm sure I've omitted quite a few). Even the mighty Stonelord cannot do much if he has nothing worthwhile attacking on the board until Battleround 3 for example.

Losing to an telegraphed (i.e. very obvious) alpha strike list which everyone should see coming a mile away such as 6 Stormfiends and Sayl (which has an exact 18+8" effective range) in situations where the imaginary magnet on your 12" line is not part of any Battleplan is not a compelling reason for deleting the best movement trick that Chaos have (particularly when they were probably the third best Grand Alliance before DoT and Stormcast Battletomes entered the picture.

One strong answer to a strong movement trick is for a new army to come out with a different (not necessarily an obviously better) movement trick, not to go and delete the older movement trick. Funnily enough that's pretty much what GW have done with DoT and especially (and surprisingly) Stormcast (not many people saw new Stormcast and especially a new type of movement trick coming out so soon) - so kudos to them.

Take away too many movement tricks and you take away a key pillar (along with varied Battleplans) keeping AoS from converging on designing optimal gunline bunkers with a few fast tough units to go grab objectives once everything has been shot to bits. 

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I definitely think Kairic Acolytes need to be knocked down in points. 100 for 10 would be reasonable. 140 for 10 is not.

Thundertusks and Stonehorns are absurdly good for their cost. Too good.  Everything else I can tolerate. But facing 3 Thundertusks as Fyreslayers and having them turn one blasting 3 of your pivotal characters off the board with minimal effort, denying my army synergy entirely. It's just beyond frustrating.

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51 minutes ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

I definitely think Kairic Acolytes need to be knocked down in points. 100 for 10 would be reasonable. 140 for 10 is not.

Thundertusks and Stonehorns are absurdly good for their cost. Too good.  Everything else I can tolerate. But facing 3 Thundertusks as Fyreslayers and having them turn one blasting 3 of your pivotal characters off the board with minimal effort, denying my army synergy entirely. It's just beyond frustrating.

Why are kairic acolytes expensive? When you compare them to another 100pt battleline unit they seem loads better. E.g 10 ghouls are 2 attacks, 4's and 4's maybe rerolling ones if a ghoul king is nearby

Acolytes are lower bravery and one less attack but they get:

an 18" shooting attack 

bonus to hit if near a wizard

A ward save or another +1 to hit

A one in three chance of causing a mortal wound to a wizard within 18"

100 points would not be in line with other units IMHO 

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Thundertusks and Stonehorns are absurdly good for their cost. Too good.  Everything else I can tolerate. But facing 3 Thundertusks as Fyreslayers and having them turn one blasting 3 of your pivotal characters off the board with minimal effort, denying my army synergy entirely. It's just beyond frustrating.

They are a bit overcosted, however, every new Battletome is bringing more goodies. In a few months' time, Thundertusks and Stonelords will be yesterday's filth and just another strong list.

Fyreslayers are probably one of the best armies for beating Mixed Destruction. You're playing Fyreslayers wrong (in my opinion). All you need are more Runesmiters.

Basically tunnel up 30 Auric Hearthguard in range of at least one of their Thundertusks. Press the shoot button with 60 shots - kill one or hopefully both of them. Tunnel up 30 Vulkites in range of the Stonelord, charge into it or at least suck out the Fanatics. Tunnel up ANOTHER 30 Vulkites who try to charge in or stand in the way of the Thundertusks and Grots. Meanwhile your min-sized Lords of the Lodge is sitting in the back 2" of the board (outside of Thundertusk range) and behind a building, so the Stonelord cannot charge them turn one. Add 3 to the initiative roll, take the double turn, walk forward your dudes, press pew pew with 30 axes from each unit of Aurics and 60 shots with buffs from the Runesmiter being close to the target, charge and obliterate. 

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Why are kairic acolytes expensive? When you compare them to another 100pt battleline unit they seem loads better. E.g 10 ghouls are 2 attacks, 4's and 4's maybe rerolling ones if a ghoul king is nearby

Acolytes are lower bravery and one less attack but they get:

an 18" shooting attack 

bonus to hit if near a wizard

A ward save or another +1 to hit

A one in three chance of causing a mortal wound to a wizard within 18"

100 points would not be in line with other units IMHO 

 

It's quite common for GW to create a Battletome with a few bargains (Kurnoth Hunters, Javelin Prosecutors, most 5 wound Stormcast heroes who are somehow only 100 points or thereabouts) and fairly expensive Battleline units (Dryads, Tree Revenants, Acos, Flaming Chariots). This could be a deliberate balancing mechanism (as you have to take the Battleline, so it imposes a cost constraint - giving you a choice of either seeing Battleline as a tax and minimising it, or building the list around the Battleline units - i.e. taking bigger units and buffing them up).

Often the Battleline units can shine inside a battalion, for Dryads, Winterleaf gives them an offensive synergy (gold in a Sylvaneth list which has almost zero offensive buffs (Alarielle's command ability, which I see players paying for and then not using which appears to be insanity) other than importing them from Order Wizards - i.e. Hand of Glory).

  • For Acos, they have a bunch of little things which may add up to more than appears on first sight.
  • The pew pew looks meh but adds something. It can be buffed a bit using the DoT battalions, or it can be buffed enormously using Fatesworn Warband - rend -1 on all that pew pew and the melee attacks too.
  • The champion adds a further shot, so 11 shots for 140 points.
  • The 6+ wards on the shield are a big deal. Always getting a save even against mortal wounds and chainsaw rend does help. This can further synergise with Warshrines or taking units of 9 (maybe) or 18 Acos in Fatesworn.
  • They have
  • Then there's the Vulcharc as well.

Looking at DoT Warscolls in isolation, it's easy to look at something and think wow - 6 mortal wounds on tap how amazing is that. However, what is often missed is how few models you get, or if you do have a lot of models, it's because they are 5+ save or worse Horrors that are potentially shreddable.

Very expensive Daemon units (Flamers; Screamers; Chariots; and to a lesser extent Exalted Flamers; really large minimum sizes for the good battalions), expensive Battleline - Acos and even Tzaangor, which are very susceptible to a first turn pew pew army and some expensive heroes (Kairos is hard to fit in as he doesn't count towards any Battalions except his own one; Fatemaster pricey for a non-wizard with a luck based command ability; Lord on Manticore is probably overcosted) are offset by a few bargains - Gaunt Summoner, Tzaangor Shaman also cheapish, Enlightened and maybe Skyfires (I think the jury is still out on these flying dudes - 1 shot per model! - quite a few cheap Battalions, aka cheap artefacts. I expect them to be on the losing end of duels with Hunters and especially Stormcast gunlines with some horrific defensive debuffs against pew pew).

 

 

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I'd like to add some sloppy scroll writing from forgeworld, such as the way that skinwolves used to be able to take marks, but now don't have the ability to choose a keyword, the same with the mammoth, although I have to say destruction do get it good with monsters from the arcana.

I'd like to see brayheard adn warherd be able to have the option of chaos god alignment, but I suppose with tzaangors its already starting to move that way.

 

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i don't really understand how you can defend kairic acolytes. Pink horror, for the same cost, are better in every way (except close combat, but let's be honest, kayrics in close combat are already dead too). Khorne bloodbound can have 5 skullreapers for the same price damnit !

Drayds can be buffed with ease and are a very good anvil. Kayrics are frail, don't have a good offensive power, have a low range don't bring utility and are only "worth it" in the pyroflame cult, with the "double shot".

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2 hours ago, The Nameless One said:

I find that any Warscroll under my command instantly becomes the worst.?

I too believe that the warscrolls for my army should definitely be improved for totally impartial reasons.

In fact any warscrolls in my faction that don't let me win (sportingly, I don't want an autowin more a guaranteed win) are useless.

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3 hours ago, Turragor said:

I too believe that the warscrolls for my army should definitely be improved for totally impartial reasons.

In fact any warscrolls in my faction that don't let me win (sportingly, I don't want an autowin more a guaranteed win) are useless.

This.

And bizarrely, the reverse is true of my opponents warscrolls, regardless of what they are, they will definitely be both overpowered and undercosted. 

Even in a mirror match.

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I'm gunna throw my hat in for the Corpse Cart. It seems kinda off now, as it's a cart of corpses that...gives zombies +1 to Hit, somehow? I remember back in the day it apparently gave bonuses to resurrection, which made sense, but now the only reason for its existence is in the zombie train list to give them +1 to Hit. Other than that it doesn't really do much, is pointless on its own or with non-Deadwalker units in ways that other units in the Death book aren't really. I mean, it also buffs Dire Wolves, but the short range of effect and their 6" faster move means it'll struggle to keep in range of them.

I dunno, I feel it really shouldn't be just a +1 to Hit buff wagon and more of a nuanced unit replenishment setup or...something. Just needs a rethink.

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I think I'll put in another vote for dragon ogors. There's nothing ogor about them at all. Their damage profile for their weapons is extremely underwhelming. They need to bump up the damage by 1 on each, and can adjust points if need be.
I got a box recently on discount, as i truly believe they're awesome models, but can't see myself using them in their current state. A real tragedy when awesome models have lacklustre rules.

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I'll add White Lions to the list. 

Not a bad unit in and of themselves... but in the crowded category of order elite infantry they offer nothing unique or interesting. Their ability to reroll saves of 1 in the shooting phase is identical to the Swordmasters... except those guys get to reroll all failed saves in the shooting phase. And being stuck in a joke 2 entry subfaction that has no battleline, no leaders and no synergy, there's just no reason to take them. 

If I were going to do something with them I'd give them a bodyguard type rule like Durthu or the Tomb Herald - it would fit their fluff and give them a proper niche. Their stats are fine, they just need something to make them stand out from all the other elite infantry in GA Order. 

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Imho i will add to the list some other scrolls:

Orghotts; he simply does too low damage, and the great warrior that he should be is simply a joke in terms of damage. He needs a damage 2 or d3 in the axes and the maggoth. I simply don't understand why a normal ogor should do more damage than an enormous nurgle monster.

They should change also the plague ogres warscroll (i doubt they'll do it) cause it simply has close to no sense. They need at least a -1 rend for god sake!

In the end the lord of plague. No damage, no tankiness (stuck on a 4+) awful command ability, awful aura. No absolute sense in taking him, ever

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On 10/03/2017 at 6:55 PM, WoollyMammoth said:

Bloodsecrator: I don't mind that he stacks but does he have to be 3+? Given his importance he should be 5+ to balance him out as a super key synergy piece that is fragile. He doesn't even have a shirt on!

I'd say that 4+ would be more reasonable and put him more into line with most of the Khorne heroes.  Bearing in mind the model is significantly taller than everything round him, it's not like he can particularly hide (he does wear a rather fetching necklace of skulls instead of a shirt though ;))

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I'd say that 4+ would be more reasonable and put him more into line with most of the Khorne heroes.  Bearing in mind the model is significantly taller than everything round him, it's not like he can particularly hide (he does wear a rather fetching necklace of skulls instead of a shirt though [emoji6])


3+ is fine, he's got extra tough skin from the world and his dog firing arrows at him to attempt to snipe him off, all the time.


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