What are the worst Warscrolls and Why?

[avanp]

I love Gore-Gruntas, and I find that they can hit pretty hard if you've got Gordrakk's Voice of Gork off. But relying on a 700 point model to make them effective is not idea. I'd love to see Gore-Gruntas have a charge re-roll or land mortal wounds on 6+ or something. Even making is so that you don't have to measure to the closest unit for their 8" charge thing would be great so you can have backup charge targets if you fail.

[Dez]

9 minutes ago, Taketheskull said:

they hit like a damp squib! 

Khorne would smell out a Squib so fast! No no, a Squib wouldn't last long in the Brass Army. 

[DynamicCalories]

As a very casual player I kinda feel like most of the fun toys are in the Sylvaneth and after Battletomes too. Making a Chaos force feels like cribbing from lots of sources, trying to smash synergies together. I regret taking Nurgle/Chaos as I would probably have a more informed toolkit to play with if I'd looked at Slyvaneth or waited for DoT. That said, things would go better if I stopped forgetting my command ability.

[Dez]

I think that the problem with Cav is everyone's perception of them, and what they have done in the past. Their new role is to be a tanking unit, not a hard hitting flanking unit like in the past. With their huge base, amount of wounds, and speed they are meant to block off sections of the board for (drumroll) board control. 

In the case of the Gore-Gruntaz, have the Warchanter give them +1 to hit before sending them out.

[TrexPushups]

1. Nurglings - 15 wounds for 80 points and can only be removed in lumps of 5 wounds, no save. Sounds o.k. but their damage output is zero so there opponent is always hitting them with full strength. They aren't even battleline. The Nurgles Deluge formation makes them much more interest and useful, but it is not for match play.
2. Most Khorne Heroes - sure they offer buffs and it makes Khorne armies more interesting to play than in previous editions of Warhammer, BUT, much like a Mighty Skullcrusher, they hit like a damp squib!  These guys are the mortal champions of the dread god of bloody slaughter who have risen to their position through a life of relentless butchery and you look at their damage output and think, "meh". Booooooo... to whom ever wrote those rules.

Bloodbound in general have terrible access to rend greater than 1

Literally limited to 2 special characters...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ollie Grimwood]

I think that the problem with Cav is everyone's perception of them, and what they have done in the past. Their new role is to be a tanking unit, not a hard hitting flanking unit like in the past. With their huge base, amount of wounds, and speed they are meant to block off sections of the board for (drumroll) board control. 
In the case of the Gore-Gruntaz, have the Warchanter give them +1 to hit before sending them out.

I actually think Chaos Knights are pretty good on the charge with Glaives and they are nice and tanky with their shield, they're tougher than Paladins or Orruk Brutes with the Mortal wound resistance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[boots468]

Archaon's warscroll is the biggest miss for me.

Due to how damage is assigned the whole 3 heads special rules rarely achieve anything, even if the heads manage to damage something.

Not having rend any better than -1 means he struggles against tanky units and special characters (unless he is played as disciples of Tzeentch and can make sure the slayer of kings double 6 effect goes off).

The worst though is his command ability needing you to have other models with command abilities in your army - with his large points cost that isn't the easiest, and due to him not getting a Command Trait, it is normally the case that Archaon isn't even the general in most armies he's in...

[Arkiham]

58 minutes ago, Dez said:

I think that the problem with Cav is everyone's perception of them, and what they have done in the past. Their new role is to be a tanking unit, not a hard hitting flanking unit like in the past. With their huge base, amount of wounds, and speed they are meant to block off sections of the board for (drumroll) board control. 

In the case of the Gore-Gruntaz, have the Warchanter give them +1 to hit before sending them out.

Since when has cav( or similar sort of role with vehicles) in military action ever been used as a tank unit ?

"Hey! You, fast unit with incredible hitting power, trott up to those fellows over there with big pointy sticks and stay there for a while while the foot soldiers catch up, flank you say? Pfft, we've no one to flank them "

That sort of command for a army is best suited for blackadder (goes forth to be specific and is probably best read in lord melchetts voice https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=TiXp9fUhjU0 )

[Southern trolls]

I'm going out on a limb here. The entire Firebellies faction, or rather the only member making up this faction the Firebelly. Not understanding what role he can fill @ 140pts and a spell that only targets himself, high save (5+),  medium amount of wounds (7), weak combat stats. 

Not only does the spell target just himself, it only deals D3 mortal wounds to enemy units within 3" at the END of combat on a 4+.  So he needs to stay alive in combat, with his thrilling 5+ save to have a 50% chance to do D3 mortal wounds. Mmmm Tasty 

[WoollyMammoth]

This is an interesting topic. Most people address the point issues, probably because we now know that will get updated. But there are some inherent issues with some scrolls, that no point change is really going to fix. 'Worst' can be interpreted as either, its the worst to play against, or it is the worst scroll in an army that you would never want to use.

Worst to Play Against
Some rules are just crazy good and create roadblocks in your game. These make my top lists;

Kurnoth Hunters: Their ability to go into defensive mode at any charge phase is crazy. This rule should be only on the turn they are charged. Also, they look like 4 wound models but they have 5. They really should be 4 wound models, they are not beefy like a heavy cavalry unit. The -2 rend on the Scythes is insane, their damage output is way too high. It should be -1.  With all 3 of these changes, they would become just a really good unit, and not totally overpowered.

Bloodsecrator: I don't mind that he stacks but does he have to be 3+? Given his importance he should be 5+ to balance him out as a super key synergy piece that is fragile. He doesn't even have a shirt on!

Fanatics: This rule is just insane coupled with the fact that your unit that was just blocked is most likely about to take an insane barrage of arrows. This is also super shady, where your opponent should be writing down where they are. I like the way the new stormcast birds work, the fanatics should be on the board and able to make a move, not pop out of nowhere with a free counter charge.

Knight-Heraldor: This rule is super crazy given you can target a huge piece of terrain and hurt everything in the army at once. It should be D6 from the center of the terrain piece, not from the edges of the terrain.

Stonehorn: The rule should have been that they reduce enemy damage to 1. This is how it was in 8th and even how the rule is written, but then FAQ'd to work like the Necrosphinx instead. It should be that it reduces all weapon damage to 1, making it susceptible to hordes but strong against monsters.

Thundertusk: One of these guys is cool, but when you see 3-4 of these guys in an army, it gets to be crazy. The shooting should be D6 mortal, starting at 3+ and getting worse chance as they take damage. It should also be a To Hit roll, not an ability roll.  They would still be super good this way.

Mourngul: Make him 4+ and take away his healing, and hes still worth the points.

Sayl: reduce his 18" spell to 12"

Sylvaneth Wyldwood: Its cool that they make forests all over the board, and hurt you with their forests. But do they really have to be dangerous terrain as well?

Worst to Play With (bad/boring rules) 
I can only speak for the armies that I have and that I have played with.

Corpse Cart: I love this model but it does not do much. They need to bring back the necromancer on top. As a mount for a wizard it could be awesome. So much lost potential in this cool model. The Black Coach complaints are similar. 

Mortis Engine and Coven Throne: These models are beautiful but just don't have any bite. They could do with some more useful rules and synergy to make them good centerpieces. 

Black Knights: these guys are so cool but are nothing more than a wet noodle that wont die. There is already plenty of tarpits in death,  these guys really need something interesting to make them useful.

Knight-Questor: his 6" rule makes no sense. Hes cool as an anvil guy but is overshadowed by every other stormcast hero which has a key use in your army. I would like to see him become a more of an expensive combat badass to lead your troops in melee. 

Knight-Venator: there's no reason why his star-fated arrow needs to be only once per game. Make it on a 4+ instead.

Tzeench Acolytes: These guys are just so boring. 

Tree Revenants & Spite Revenants: For only 5 models with a 5+ save, they should have 2 wounds each. 

[Dez]

16 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Since when has cav( or similar sort of role with vehicles) in military action ever been used as a tank unit ?

"Hey! You, fast unit with incredible hitting power, trott up to those fellows over there with big pointy sticks and stay there for a while while the foot soldiers catch up, flank you say? Pfft, we've no one to flank them "

That sort of command for a army is best suited for blackadder (goes forth to be specific and is probably best read in lord melchetts voice https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=TiXp9fUhjU0 )

My point proven

[Nico]

Kurnoth Hunters cannot charge after applying the reroll saves mechanic!

A lot of players get this wrong!

They aren't as broken as people think! Don't charge into them when they're in a Wyldwood - sit back and let them come to you.

[Ollie Grimwood]

Do be fair I don't recall any historical cavalry that rode daemonic Rhinos or Giant Boars ?

I starting to suspect @WoollyMammoth may have issues with Bloodsecrators, he doesn't like to mention it though ?

[Tuluth]

Echoing on Gore-Gruntaz, but only on part of the warscroll. Stats wise, they're good, with a decent save and bravery, and low mounted movement before you add in battalion and Destruction movement traits. Their weapon reach is  bad (1" vs 2" with a huge base), but they have a decent number of attacks.

The problem is with their Charge mechanic/benefit. Changing damage on the mounts attacks from 1 to D3 sounds good, but having it only kick in when the nearest enemy unit is 8" or more away, and the charge is successful, is painful. It hurts more when you whiff all those rolls, and the Gruntas do no damage. Boar Boys at least get a re-roll on any charge. A flat change to D3 mortal wounds on an charge roll of 8+ would help eliminate the confusion issue we have with the model.

[Nico]

All of your comments on Scythe Hunters are misinformed.

Sylvaneth have only got 11 Warscrolls to choose from (not counting Treekin).

Stormcast probably have 11 different heroes to choose from.

As I'll bet you've never even seen a Spite Revenants, it's closer to 10 Warscrolls. 2 of those are overcosted named characters (although not as overcosted as Archaon or Gordrakk or Nagash or Mannderp).

Sylvaneth do not have any burst mortal wound damage (cf Letterbomb, Stormfiends, Husktusks). Hence they desperately need a supply of -2 rend to open cans and scratch tank units. Scythe Hunters fulfil that role. They are also the only bargain Warscroll in the Sylvaneth list (everything else is costed about right or overcosted). Gnarlroot as a Battalion is a bit cheap too. 

Above all else - like Stormcast prior to one month ago - Sylvaneth rely on elite troops with good stats and rules - and not on synergies and offensive buffs. There is one offensive buff for Kurnoth Hunters in the whole book - Alarielle's Command Ability (Winterleaf also works vs Chaos). Other armies can pull off a buff stack on average or even bad troops which can put out an obscene amount of damage.

 

[BURF1]

Not gonna quote the big wall of text but in response to wooly mammoth: Very few things that are good actually need rules changes, points work fine. Some of the stuff that's bad like blacknights could use some rules love though. I mean they'd have to be like 60 to be worth and at that point they cause problems with how survivable they are.

Hunters: Underpriced, simple as that, at 220-240 they'd be fine.

Bloodsecrator: Probably a little cheap considering they stack.

Fanatics: Since they FAQed it these are fine, just need to be a bit pricier. Before the FAQ I would have agreed on a rules change

Heraldor: I think he's fine, not many people take them and they're very fragile AND they do friendly fire. 

Stonehorn: Nope, absolutely not. The rules are fine and a small price increase is all they need. What they did in 8th is totally irrelevant today.

Thundertusk: A huskard on thundertusk should be more expensive than a frostlord on thunderstusk and both should be only slightly less than a Stonehorn.

Mourngul: Bull, take away his healing at all and he becomes worthless. The 4+ wouldn't be the end of the world but I honestly think just bumping him up to 440 would take care of the problem.

Sayl: Agreed, point changes won't help that ability. It'll be an auto include until it becomes worthless.

Wildwoods: Make them cost points after the first one. Even 40 pts per set of 3. Or force tournaments to use more terrain.

[Nico]

Some of these comments are just absurd. Nerfing Fanatics into oblivion when these are the only reason why Moonclan armies exist.

[Nico]

Quote

Thundertusk: One of these guys is cool, but when you see 3-4 of these guys in an army, it gets to be crazy. The shooting should be D6 mortal, starting at 3+ and getting worse chance as they take damage. It should also be a To Hit roll, not an ability roll.  They would still be super good this way.

This is probably a 40% nerf - you should consider putting the nerf hammer back in its box. Let's try a 10-15% price adjustment or bring out a specific Hard or soft counter in the new releases instead.

These comments look like you're just trolling. I suggest listening to Scruby & Wells podcast interview with Vince Venturella.

[Nico]

Quote

Hunters: Underpriced, simple as that, at 220-240 they'd be fine.

Try writing a Sylvaneth list with those absurd costs. At most increase the bows by 20 or 30 (because surprise surprise practically the only time purported "Sylvaneth" win events is when they are part of a Mixed Order filthfest with 1+ Hurricanums), but leave the melee options untouched.

[BURF1]

4 minutes ago, Nico said:

This is probably a 40% nerf - you should consider putting the nerf hammer back in its box. Let's try a 10-15% price adjustment or bring out a specific Hard or soft counter in the new releases instead.

These comments look like you're just trolling. I suggest listening to Scruby & Wells podcast interview with Vince Venturella.

Wooly mammoth is very well known for hating anything that's powerful. It's sort of his thing. On the flipside trying to deny that Kurnoth hunter's/Thundertusks/Wyldwoods and the other things that see consistent top tables aren't a bit cheap for what they do is pushing it. And if Kurnoths go up then the things that underperform should come down to compensate. Drycha, TLA, Tree Revs(by at least 40) Alarielle should all drop a bit.

[TrexPushups]

Not gonna quote the big wall of text but in response to wooly mammoth: Very few things that are good actually need rules changes, points work fine. Some of the stuff that's bad like blacknights could use some rules love though. I mean they'd have to be like 60 to be worth and at that point they cause problems with how survivable they are.
Hunters: Underpriced, simple as that, at 220-240 they'd be fine.
Bloodsecrator: Probably a little cheap considering they stack.
Fanatics: Since they FAQed it these are fine, just need to be a bit pricier. Before the FAQ I would have agreed on a rules change
Heraldor: I think he's fine, not many people take them and they're very fragile AND they do friendly fire. 
Stonehorn: Nope, absolutely not. The rules are fine and a small price increase is all they need. What they did in 8th is totally irrelevant today.
Thundertusk: A huskard on thundertusk should be more expensive than a frostlord on thunderstusk and both should be only slightly less than a Stonehorn.
Mourngul: Bull, take away his healing at all and he becomes worthless. The 4+ wouldn't be the end of the world but I honestly think just bumping him up to 440 would take care of the problem.
Sayl: Agreed, point changes won't help that ability. It'll be an auto include until it becomes worthless.
Wildwoods: Make them cost points after the first one. Even 40 pts per set of 3. Or force tournaments to use more terrain.

Best way to address sayl is for Nurgle, Khorne, & slaaneesh to get compelling allegiance abilities.

Makes using him a sacrifice instead of an auto include.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BURF1]

1 minute ago, TrexPushups said:

 

Best way to address sayl is for Nurgle, Khorne, & slaaneesh to get compelling allegiance abilities.

Makes using him a sacrifice instead of an auto include.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

How's that gonna stop stormfiends and warp lightning cannons?

[Oppenheimer]

1 hour ago, WoollyMammoth said:

 
Corpse Cart: I love this model but it is totally useless. They need to bring back the necromancer on top. As a mount for a wizard it could be awesome. So much lost potential in this cool model. The Black Coach complaints are similar. 

Mortis Engine and Coven Throne: These models are beautiful but just don't have any bite. They could do with some more useful rules and synergy to make them good centerpieces. 

Black Knights: these guys are so cool but are nothing more than a wet noodle that wont die. There is already plenty of tarpits in death,  these guys really need something interesting to make them useful.

 

Tree Revenants & Spite Revenants: For only 5 models with a 5+ save, they should have 2 wounds each. 

Very much agree with these four points. Black knights in particular used to be so good in 8e with killing blow and good save. Now they are almost the same as skeletal horsemen. No longer are they grave guard on horses.

I still find the corpse cart to be OK if you are fielding a lot of zombies and dire wolves. At least it's pretty cheap.

[WoollyMammoth]

@Oppenheimer
You know you want to put a necromancer on a corpse cart. I hope when they do the zombie book they give it really cool rules. its a pile of corpses pulled by corpses! I want it on the table for longer than its 5+ save normally allows for.

[Lord Aquillor]

Mournghoul.... because that guys is stupid for his points and what he does.  The WORST.