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Bretonnia Battletome Project


henin

Unofficial Bretonnian Battletome  

249 members have voted

  1. 1. Would a full unofficial Bretonnian Battletome for AoS interest you?

    • Yes! I have something to offer for this project so i will notify you!
      16
    • Yes! I would love to see this and really hope it gets done!
      146
    • Sure, hope it happens.
      44
    • Nah, too complicated...
      7
    • No I am fine with things as they are.
      21
    • NO! DEATH TO THE LADY!
      23


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Thank you :) Me and my friends spend the day brainstorming and discussing the ideas, while comparing them with various armies (we have a lot of different armies, but we all feel like Bretonnia could receive some love. Many of us still have some Bretonnian units). We love the direction that was taken with it, and these small changes are meant to make it more competitive. We always go full out in our matches (where is the fun in holding back right?), so we wanted to make this Battletome strong enough that it could compete with several of the current strong factions as well. We think that with all these changes it will be strong enough, without making it too powerful. And we hope our ideas will be considered :) 

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Thanks for the comments @Nielspeterdejong there's a couple of things in there that has given me food for thought.

However overall it seems like you think that the rules we're putting forward are somewhat underpowered? In all honesty I feel like they're a bit too good in some areas (spells and items particularly). If anything going forward we're going to be scaling things back a bit, while also tightening up wording and interactions.

Our intention isn't to have a battletome that can challenge the top tier Skyfire Spam or Vanguard Wing lists (or whatever the list de riguer becomes). But to have something that sits squarely in the middle of the pack.

 

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You are most welcome :)

And honestly we didn't feel that way at all. Keep in mind that if we are going to play Bretonnia, we would love it to be competitive and able to compete with the current popular armies fielded out there. However we think that with these changes they won't be up to par with the Seraphon or the Stormcast Ethernals, but they will still be strong enough to have a chance to win.

 

The army should not be too powerful, but we have all come to agree that these boons don't make them as powerful as the top tier factions. Especially the changes to the Warscrolls we mentioned (and the price changes), as well as the Protection of the Spirits change. With these changes they will be strong enough to allow you to field more different style armies and tactics, without making them too weak. This is based on all of our experience playing different factions, and seeing in which areas they could improve.

 

Bretonnia as a faction would still not be as strong as the Free People armies for example, but with these changes they would be strong enough to gain a fighting chance. So we hope you would not tone down your current ideas, and consider buffing them in the suggested areas. This to keep them fair when compared to most current armies, including the ones in the middle of the pack as you have suggested. Especially the Foot Knights would have to have 3 wounds each if you are going to give them a cost of 160 points. Seeing as they no longer have as much mobility, fewer attacks, and won't benefit from the "Lady wills it" boon. 

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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I too feel that some places are underpowered... your version of the king is one, green knight another! I understand that it’s not supposed to be over powered, but unless they get a somewhat large improvement over the official people won’t use it! That’s why I hope you will shake up things instead of nerfing them! Again the official King is in my view better at the moment than your Alfa version! The archers are a bit too expensive, and the green knight should do mortal wounds on a 6+ 

Furthermore I really think nielspeterdejong has some really valid points! And I agree that a skaling  up, not a nerfing is appropriate! 

 

That said! It’s such a cool thing you are doing! And I love what you are doing!

Edited by Melcar
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In relation to the Foot Knights they're pretty much an altered version of Freeguild Greatswords so I feel like they're attributed and costed appropriately.

That being said in terms of scaling things back it's more the Allegiance abilities rather than the warscrolls. 

And as always bumping things up and down is part and parcel of the process.

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Well the greatswords cost 150 gold for 10 models, giving them 10 wounds and 20 attacks compared to the 5 wounds and 10 attacks for the Foot Knights. We could keep their Warscrolls the same, but then the minimum amount of models would have to be 10 for 150 points. The greatswords have a really usefull intercept charge ability after all, so they are pretty much equal in strength (I’ve added this idea to my previous post, instead of the 3 wounds).

 

As for for scaling back, how about implementing our suggested changes, but removing the exceptional mounts part? With the Protection of the spirits, The lady wills it, and The lady’s favor it would be 3 well rounded traits. Even with our suggestions to bonus items (especially for the Paladin Standard bearer), and boons to spells, this would still not give them the same strength as say the Seraphon and Free People’s Guilds.

 

However, it would give some usefull flavors to them, usefull enough to make it worth playing them against other factions :)

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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1 hour ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

In relation to the Foot Knights they're pretty much an altered version of Freeguild Greatswords so I feel like they're attributed and costed appropriately.

That being said in terms of scaling things back it's more the Allegiance abilities rather than the warscrolls. 

And as always bumping things up and down is part and parcel of the process.

The foot knights should definitely have 2 wounds! No doubt!

Its true... it back and forth, but they way I see it, what people are looking for is not only cool lore, they also want to win from time to time, even against Seraphon and Stormcast, so the warscrolls need to basically all be better than the current official one or something like 20% cheaper per model, thus allowing more models per army.

Again its not only the power of the individual units, but if a hero cost 140 poits it should not loose 10 times out of 10 against a mega boss. If it does its either too expencive of not powerful enough.

I want to make it clear that I think its awesome, and Henin knows how much I appreciate you doing this, but I too must admit I was a little surprised reading the alpha version. Some things does indeed look a bit underwhelming . I do like however that lances now all have 2 inch range. Thats super!

Please take this a constructive criticism, because I so want to implement this in our group, but it wont have appeal if it does not yield a substantial improvement over the current official - or even the first AoS version (Now obsolete, but still better than the current official one).

Point being, basically all units have to be better that the two official (old and current) to have appeal. That include more powerful warscrolls, better allegiance abilities, better artifacts, command traits, spells and synergies.

Again I'm loving the great effort, I just fear that if it does not deliver what people want the most... competitiveness... it might just be ignored. So would it be if it was too powerful, and I know finding balance is hard, I'm just trying to say its important to really think and test the different units. But bottom line is, they have to more powerful than the current official one or somewhat cheaper - if the power is not increased!

Cheers! And keep up the excellent work!

EDIT: I also want to complement you on the blessed lake, I think that's an awesome addition!!!

Edited by Melcar
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Here are my own comments on the document:

Battle Traits

I like Protection of the Spirits (coincidentally, my version is pretty similar except units lose it if they retreat/flee due to battleshock). I think it's fine to have something that's situational, I don't feel it's the main focal point of the allegiance abilities anyway.

Personally what I would've liked to see (even if they are not the 'goto' trait/artefact) are ways to increase the power of the Protection. When I created my own Bretonnian ones, I had a trait that effected the General himself, while a one-use artefact which boosted all nearby units. 

I have mixed feelings about the Lady Wills It. Something about it doesn't feel quite right to me. Maybe it's the name, maybe it's because it feels like one of the 'bandaid' fixes for medium cavalry. Dunno. Maybe it feels right when it's played in game, but on paper to me it doesn't feel right.

Really like the Favour token concept. I think if anything, what you'll want to do is make sure the wording is crystal clear. At the moment it's not clear if you use it at the start of the phase, or right before a unit attacks/makes saves/charges/etc.

Command Traits

They all look fine to me. As mentioned above, I think you could've probably put in an increase in some form to the Generals Spirit Protection save.

Lore of the Lady

Fair Tailwind - Would suggest to simplify it that the unit just adds D3+1" to their movement value until your next Hero phase. That way it feels right, since the tailwind would surely help whichever direction they are going. I guess if this was a Wind Blast, then I would understand pushing units around, but the theme doesn't feel that way.

Entanglement - This is super powerful, and perhaps could even argue that a casting value of 6 may be too much. In essence, you're almost shutting down an enemy units movement and charging opportunities potentially for 2 of their turns (of course, it could also end up being 0). I'm actually not sure that this is a healthy spell for the game in it's current state. Something potentially not as 'oppressive' would be to reduce the units move and charge distances by D3".

Glimpse of Fate - Honestly feels a bit boring. A more interesting 'foresight' ability might be that unit can use one Favour of the Lady ability for free until your next hero phase. IMO actually more thematic as there are many ways you can change your fate, not just by smashing the enemy better.

Nature's Wrath - Not fussed. Dunno how it compares to similar Sylvaneth spells. It may potentially be one point too high in casting power, but can see it being quite powerful.

Strengthen Spirits - Really dislike this spell. Spiritual strengthening to me doesn't scream 'increase armour even more!'. Would much rather this was just a 'bonus save' instead.

Revivify - You probably need to be clearer on how this interaction works, as I assume you should heal models then revive models first?

Steed Traits

 I think it would've been nice to have different traits for the different mount types.

Artefacts

It feels weird that the Morningstar has a defensive ability when it's a weapon (althought I kinda get where it's coming from). Think it would've been better off on a re-imagined Armour of the Midsummer Sun.

The Silver Mirror is super good IMO and I wouldn't it. Any ability that can automatically unbind is very useful.

Warscrolls

I really feel it's weird to add back in the named characters. Embrace Age of Sigmar. Those heroes no longer exist. The Bretons or whatever you want to call them, should be some form of AoS faction and exist solely within the Age of Sigmar. So feel like it's a real step backwards to change them back into named characters.

The Lord on Demigryph command ability feels a bit good. Personally I would make the ability one or the other. Don't make it like the Lord on Warhorse +1. I get that they have different attack profiles (Which is kinda another weird thing between the 3 Lords), but I personally dislike command abilities that do everything the lesser one does + more (Order Draconis has the same issue).

Paladin's Heroic blow might be a bit good and is probably far more reliable than actually doing your regular attacks. Would have to do the maths, but that's my gut feel.

Not quite sure why the Paladin Standard Bearer works better on Peasants than Nobility. Is there a thematic reason behind this?

Not really sure I like that Questing Knights cause enemy Monsters to suffer -1 to hit them. The way I always saw them is that they're eager and ready to slay monsters, not that Monsters are frightened of them.

personally don't like the idea of including Demigryph Knights in Bretonnia. They're an Empire/Free Peoples thing, and I dislike crossing them over. Bretonnia also already has Pegasi that fulfil a monstrous cavalry role. That's just my 2 cents though.

I like the extra wound on Grail Knights, although it potentially could've been represented by something else also.

Personally I would simplify the Pegasus Knights sweep over the lines. There seems to be a lot of writing to basically allow them to go wherever they want with those 6". Or if you want them to do that, change it so instead of a double pile-in and attack, at the end of the combat phase if they charged that turn you may move each model D6".

Massed Accuracy is completely unnecessary on Peasant Bowmen. They already have an ability which gets better with more models you take (generally units only get one ability that increases they increase in size).

Battle Pilgrims prayer needs a wording fix, should affect 'that' unit rather than 'this' unit considering you can effect other PEASANTRY units.

I would probably simplify the Reliquae. Just give the unit +1 bravery and NOBILITY keyword while the Reliquae is alive. Feels a bit weird to get bravery from nearby heroes.

Mounted Yeomen feel like they've got a few too many rules. Most fast cavalry units get ONE of scouting, hit and run, swift volley. Feels like you're trying too hard to make them 'good'. I would just revert them back to their compendium scroll.

I would consider decreasing the Woodsmen's armour save to 6+. I doubt that they are very armoured moving through the woods (To put things in perspective, Free Peoples Archers are also 6+, while Freeguild Guard are 5+).

My suggestion for the Foot Knights would be to have them always hitting on 3+ and get rid of Redemptive Resolution. At the moment it feels like the unit has a special ability too many.

 

Ahh I see, you've got buffs baked into the Protection of the Spirits based on the Blessed Lake warscroll. Seems cool, not sure that the Lakes come with them when they're on the move. Personally I think it should just be an optional warscroll that makes for cool narrative games, but not part of the matched play army because of that.

Battalions

Didn't really read through these.

Points

Skimmed through these, but at a glance look pretty in line with the Free Peoples stuff and probably good enough for playtesting.

The one thing I will mention is that the Lord on Warhorse may be a bit too cheap. He has a very competitive offensive profile even without the Pegasus IMO. Would consider pushing him up to 120.

I don't really know where the Collegiate Arcane allies comes from. I'd probably just leave them out unless there's some kind of fluff justification that backs it up.

 

Those are my thoughts anyway. I think they'd honestly be on a pretty similar power level to Free Peoples which I think is a good thing to aim for IMO.

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I have added some minor changes to my suggestion post regarding the Sage’s Order. That battallion always felt to us like it had the most potential yet something was missing. We  did some quick brainstorming after your reply, and we feel that the current change I just added would be the most interesting. And it would also make much more sense with regards to the backstory of the order :)

 

also I added the suggestion of making the Foot Knight cost 150 points per 10 models, as they are similar in strength to the Greatswords. Again, we hope you will consider these changes. We spend quite some time discussing this in our group, and honestly this should make them competetive enough without making them too powerful or even one of the top tier armies

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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8 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

also I added the suggestion of making the Foot Knight cost 150 points per 10 models, as they are similar in strength to the Greatswords. Again, we hope you will consider these changes, as we spend quite some time discussing this in our group, and honestly this should make them competetive enough without making them too powerful or even one of the top tier.

The Foot Knights are basically identical to Greatswords except they get 2 extra abilities and an extra point of bravery. IMO the musician/standard bearer changes really just balance each other out, where the Greatsword standard is better if you take larger units.

Righteous Indignation is reason enough to know they should cost more than Greatswords, as the ability to pile in and attack before removing a model with an elite infantry statline is super good.

The fact they get Holy Fervour is just icing on the cake which occasionally puts out some rend -2 attacks (Although even that can be buffed with the Enchantress spell).

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Hmm perhaps I'm being overly self critical. I do tend to err on the side of caution, and I'm acutely aware that in some ways I'm standing on the shoulders of giants (namely @Auticus and @Oppenheimer).

As I said before, all these suggestions really gives me some food for thought, and all of them are welcome as it helps us to strive for the best outcome to this project.

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Well I talked it over with some friends, and we decided to give this battlerome a field test :)

 

We are going to add our 25 suggestions, and remove the exceptional steed, while also adding a trait to The Lady’s favor that gives you an additional favor each time you kill a MONSTER or HERO unit. 

 

We feel that with this they should be fairly balanced, but we wanted to try it out regardlessly :) We might try it tomorrow or the day after, depending on how many have time.

 

also, Will the final version have a battle time similar to Mengel Miniatures? :)

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14 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Well I talked it over with some friends, and we decided to give this battlerome a field test :)

 

We are going to add our 25 suggestions, and remove the exceptional steed, while also adding a trait to The Lady’s favor that gives you an additional favor each time you kill a MONSTER or HERO unit. 

 

We feel that with this they should be fairly balanced, but we wanted to try it out regardlessly :) We might try it tomorrow or the day after, depending on how many have time.

 

also, Will the final version have a battle time similar to Mengel Miniatures? :)

Very nice initiative. Great stuff. I'm looking forward to hearing your results!

I have done some testing myself. The King and the Bret Lord - the official ones, and they are massively overpriced as far as I can tell.

Good hunting!

Cheers

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18 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Well I talked it over with some friends, and we decided to give this battlerome a field test :)

 

We are going to add our 25 suggestions, and remove the exceptional steed, while also adding a trait to The Lady’s favor that gives you an additional favor each time you kill a MONSTER or HERO unit. 

 

We feel that with this they should be fairly balanced, but we wanted to try it out regardlessly :) We might try it tomorrow or the day after, depending on how many have time.

 

also, Will the final version have a battle time similar to Mengel Miniatures? :)

Huh for some reason the uploaded version didn't include the fact that we already had a rule in place that gives you a favour token when one of your heroes kills an enemy hero or monster.

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Oh, and we discussed King Louen Leoncour, and we all seem to agree that his price is a bit too high. We wanted to lower his price to 320 points, as the General on Griphon may lack his utility, he also does have better stats then him.

 

speaking of which, Could you also add a Bretonnian version of the General on Gryphon like you did for the Demigryph Knights? Tweaking the Keywords a bit while giving the charging lance a +1 to wound if he has charged as well. This could be the 260 point cheaper version of Leon, while giving Bretonnia a much needed monster unit. It could be called a Archduke on Gryphon or something similar :)

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4 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Oh, and we discussed King Louen Leoncour, and we all seem to agree that his price is a bit too high. We wanted to lower his price to 320 points, as the General on Griphon may lack his utility, he also does have better stats then him.

 

speaking of which, Could you also add a Bretonnian version of the General on Gryphon like you did for the Demigryph Knights? Tweaking the Keywords a bit while giving the charging lance a +1 to wound if he has charged as well. This could be the 260 point cheaper version of Leon, while giving Bretonnia a much needed monster unit. It could be called a Archduke on Gryphon or something similar :)

 

I have actually proposed in our home group, that one simple gave the king a new mount, namely the Griffon, to enable use of the, IMO cooler looking model of the Free Guild General on Griffon. That way he would have added stats from a better mount and then his cost would be more appropriate the 400... Unless ofc. one were to reduce his  number of attacks in which case his cost even on a griffon should go down.

Edited by Melcar
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Honestly, I think King Leon is fine, though he could have his price reduced to 320

 

if my suggested Bretonnian version of the General on Gryphon could be added, then that would give you more options. As well as access to a monster unit for Bretonnia. (I added these ideas to my previous suggestions, making it a total of 27 :))

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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I suggest not having named characters. They are dead, so should they remain. I suggest just making them generic models like the official battletome.

 

The Green Knight: I think the green knight should have 6 wounds. I think the price is right!

 

Foot-Knights: These are cool, fit the whole fantasy setting, but they should really be considered elite units. So, what is comparative to them? I have tested them against Iron Jaws Ardboys. They were not able to stand against them long! If they are elite infantry, which Is what I see them as being, give them 2 wounds! That would really make them worthwhile! Price should be 150 points! I only did 5 tests, but they lost all 5, fast!

 

Grail Knights: I like the things you have done here. I have tested them against Ironjaws Brutes, and they still seem to be a little underwhelming. I suggest giving them 3+ to wound and keep the extra damage against DEATH and DEAMON, just like the official version! They are supposed to represent the pinnacle of human knighthood, make them so! I also suggest giving them a commander like a Paragon or Galant – who has 4 attacks! Grail Knights should cost 180. Why, because they can’t take 5 Iron Jaws Brutes. I tried 5 times, no victories – they charged every time!

Pegasus Knights: They should definitely have -1 rend! Keep the price the same!

 

That’s it for me for now! Hope you are able to consider some of my comments. The testing really helped, and I think they just need a bit more to be competitive!

If I had to choose only one of my comments to be implemented, it would be the grail knights! They should be very very close to the power of either Chaos Knight or Blood Knights and should be able to take down the 5 Ironjaws Brutes, because they cost more (But they canst!!! Ergo, they are not powerful enough for their point or too expensive!)

Cheers!

PS: Great job btw!

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34 minutes ago, Cayseymax said:

I suggest not having named characters. They are dead, so should they remain. I suggest just making them generic models like the official battletome.

 

 

 

The Green Knight: I think the green knight should have 6 wounds. I think the price is right!

 

 

 

Foot-Knights: These are cool, fit the whole fantasy setting, but they should really be considered elite units. So, what is comparative to them? I have tested them against Iron Jaws Ardboys. They were not able to stand against them long! If they are elite infantry, which Is what I see them as being, give them 2 wounds! That would really make them worthwhile! Price should be 150 points! I only did 5 tests, but they lost all 5, fast!

 

 

 

Grail Knights: I like the things you have done here. I have tested them against Ironjaws Brutes, and they still seem to be a little underwhelming. I suggest giving them 3+ to wound and keep the extra damage against DEATH and DEAMON, just like the official version! They are supposed to represent the pinnacle of human knighthood, make them so! I also suggest giving them a commander like a Paragon or Galant – who has 4 attacks! Grail Knights should cost 180. Why, because they can’t take 5 Iron Jaws Brutes. I tried 5 times, no victories – they charged every time!
 

 

Pegasus Knights: They should definitely have -1 rend! Keep the price the same!

 

 

 

That’s it for me for now! Hope you are able to consider some of my comments. The testing really helped, and I think they just need a bit more to be competitive!

If I had to choose only one of my comments to be implemented, it would be the grail knights! They should be very very close to the power of either Chaos Knight or Blood Knights and should be able to take down the 5 Ironjaws Brutes, because they cost more (But they canst!!! Ergo, they are not powerful enough for their point or too expensive!)

Cheers!

 

 

PS: Great job btw!

I think you are spot on with all of these ideas! 

 

I will I’ll propose using these changes in our test run as well :) 

 

Except for the Foot Knights: I propose giving them a minimum of 10 models like the Great swords for 160 points instead. That way they could be the Bretonnians version of that elite unit.

 

I think your idea for making those LL generic is interesting. With the Bretonnian version of the General on Griffin becoming a Archduke on Griffon, and the LL’s becoming a King on Griffon and Enchantress.

However, every army has at least one Legendary Lord. So I think those could stay the same, while we add the Bretonnian version of the 260 points costing General on Griffon as well to fill up that hole. What do you think about my proposed cost for King Louen?

 

I agree with you about both the grail knights, the Green Knight and the Pegasus knights though. And we will try that out ourselves in our test run as well!

 

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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