looking for support Bretonnia Battletome Project

[SpiritofHokuto]

While I agree that perhaps the Green Knight was bumped up a little too much and needs reining (sic) in a bit. Comparing it to the horribly mismanaged rules of the Mourngul is a pretty poor baseline for comparison.

[Diemer84]

Sure, even though the mourngul is nerfed to the point is it nigh unplayable, it still has many similarities to the current green knight. Before the mourngul lost it´s 5+ save against wounds and mortal wounds, at 400 points the mourngul was no powerhouse, but still usable. I merely wished to make the clear that the extreme difference in points(160 and 400) should call for a point increase and also removal of abilities for the green knight.

Thank you for pointing out that the mourngul is mismanaged! It has a great spot on my shelf which it will not be removed from for a while;-)

[Nielspeterdejong]

39 minutes ago, Diemer84 said:

Sure, even though the mourngul is nerfed to the point is it nigh unplayable, it still has many similarities to the current green knight. Before the mourngul lost it´s 5+ save against wounds and mortal wounds, at 400 points the mourngul was no powerhouse, but still usable. I merely wished to make the clear that the extreme difference in points(160 and 400) should call for a point increase and also removal of abilities for the green knight.

Thank you for pointing out that the mourngul is mismanaged! It has a great spot on my shelf which it will not be removed from for a while;-)

Well to be fair, the Bretonnians lack the monsters of the other races, so they will have to rely more on their strong heroes. I think the Green Knight is in a good spot right now, due to his current capabilities. If anything, making it simpler by giving the Protection of the Spirits boon for all phases (it is just for half the army), and removing the exceptional steeds in favor of a boon for the Peasantry should be enough. Though the point cost for the battalions would also help a ton!

[Cayseymax]

18 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Well to be fair, the Bretonnians lack the monsters of the other races, so they will have to rely more on their strong heroes. I think the Green Knight is in a good spot right now, due to his current capabilities. If anything, making it simpler by giving the Protection of the Spirits boon for all phases (it is just for half the army), and removing the exceptional steeds in favor of a boon for the Peasantry should be enough. Though the point cost for the battalions would also help a ton!

No... just no!

The Green Knight is way too powerful for 160 point. That's not even an argument! If you keep him in the current form, he should probably cost 280... but I think a reduction of his powers and and increase of his cost if better. The green knight is not supposed to be a crazy unkillable powerhouse. He has never been so in any editions.

Making it possible for nobility whole army to have 5+ save against all wounds is ridiculous! That is also broken! If anything is should only be shooting phase and as Someone2040 point out the stacking or multiple things giving by Shield of the Lady, Sirine's Locket and Virtue of Favour, should be removed!

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

For 280 he would be butchered. The Steamtank (which is amazing! You can reroll all dice that are involved with it) costs 280 as well, and has 4 great ranged attacks, and Mortal wounds whenever it charges. 

 

And as I remember, the Undead already have that. Have you forgotten that they have a 6+ ward save on ALL undead units, including fodder? And if they are close to a General the value changes to 5+ which is the same. And these fodder units ALSO have the ability (not even battle trait) to ressurect units.

 

Peasantry, if they are allowed to have the same ability as a battle trait, still don't have the 6+ ward save. Only Nobility units have those, which is a huge limit. 

[SpiritofHokuto]

28 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

For 280 he would be butchered. The Steamtank (which is amazing! You can reroll all dice that are involved with it) costs 280 as well, and has 4 great ranged attacks, and Mortal wounds whenever it charges. 

 

And as I remember, the Undead already have that. Have you forgotten that they have a 6+ ward save on ALL undead units, including fodder? And if they are close to a General the value changes to 5+ which is the same. And these fodder units ALSO have the ability (not even battle trait) to ressurect units.

 

Peasantry, if they are allowed to have the same ability as a battle trait, still don't have the 6+ ward save. Only Nobility units have those, which is a huge limit. 

That 5+ save changed with the GHB2017, it can only be a 6+ and has to be within 6" of a hero (12" with a command trait). The regeneration is also keyed off of heroes as well.

[Nielspeterdejong]

Yes, and the Nobility units can only have that 5+ if they are close to a General as well, provided you invest a command trait into it. Or near a 100 point costing Blessed Lake. 

 

The lack of monsters means that they are reliant on their Nobility units, so it is natural that those should be more tanky. 

[Diemer84]

2 hours ago, Cayseymax said:

No... just no!

The Green Knight is way too powerful for 160 point. That's not even an argument! If you keep him in the current form, he should probably cost 280... but I think a reduction of his powers and and increase of his cost if better. The green knight is not supposed to be a crazy unkillable powerhouse. He has never been so in any editions.

 

I completely agree!

[Nielspeterdejong]

2 hours ago, Diemer84 said:

I completely agree!

Well in which case he would have to be on par with the Steamtank, so he would have to be buffed. Remember, the Steamtank has 3+ ward save, 4 ranged attacks, and provided you didn't take too much damage you can reroll ALL dice that are involved with the unit. Along with having 12 wounds. 

[Diemer84]

Not to be impolite, but I don’t think that you have read the steam tanks actual warscroll. The green knight vs steam tank is an odd comparison which I am not going to do. 

Also, in general, perhaps one should be careful not to cherrypick and always compare to strong units for their points. 

Said with the best of intentions. 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Well actually I have, and you have the "turn up the steam" ability that lets you re-roll all random values (aka dice). My comparison is to show that for 280 you get a very strong unit with the other factions, so I feel that the current price of the Green knight is warranted.

 

Especially if you are only allowed to field one at a time. 

 

And no problem, we are here to discuss our opinions after all. Though I feel that you have a tendency to under-power units. I love the current draft, but I fear that they will be blandly under-powered. And one of the fun things about playing is also the concept of having a good chance at winning. 

[someone2040]

So taking a closer inspection to the Green Knight.

So before getting onto balanced/not balanced, I'm not exactly sure why there was a need to change his sword to have lance like mechanics. Don't really see the justification, and just means he probably outputs more damage than before. Given that, I would definitely revert the changes of his sword back.

 

As for balance, it's a bit hard to tell where tanky heroes sit in the line of things. One thing I'd be worried about is that he is be stacking a lot of saves. A 3+ unmodifiable save, followed by a 5++, followed potentially by a 6++ on a model that has 7 wounds and can be healed and comes back from the dead once per game. This can be an extremely frustrating mechanic to deal with.

My gut feeling is that probably he's a bit too tanky at the moment, and for an extra 20-40 points is a far better pick than a Marshal on Pegasus/Warhorse unless you particularly need the command ability. There's definitely a place for tanky heroes IMO.

Essentially it's important to point out, that this version of the Green Knight is pretty much better than both the prior versions in the Compendium and comes with 20 point price decrease.

 

So here are some things I would be consider if he turns out to be too powerful:

Lowering his wounds down to 6. 

Lowering the save of the foliate shield back to 6++. 

Upping his points.

Not necessarily all of them, but those are some options I feel. I think a safe bet, would be to put him back to 180 points and see if he requires further tweaking from there.

[henin]

Thank you guys very much for your comments in regards to the tome! We have made a lot of strides in such a short time with this last draft version and we should be releasing an edited new version by next week! 

[Nielspeterdejong]

7 hours ago, henin said:

Thank you guys very much for your comments in regards to the tome! We have made a lot of strides in such a short time with this last draft version and we should be releasing an edited new version by next week! 

We will look forward to that

 

7 hours ago, someone2040 said:

So taking a closer inspection to the Green Knight.

So before getting onto balanced/not balanced, I'm not exactly sure why there was a need to change his sword to have lance like mechanics. Don't really see the justification, and just means he probably outputs more damage than before. Given that, I would definitely revert the changes of his sword back.

 

As for balance, it's a bit hard to tell where tanky heroes sit in the line of things. One thing I'd be worried about is that he is be stacking a lot of saves. A 3+ unmodifiable save, followed by a 5++, followed potentially by a 6++ on a model that has 7 wounds and can be healed and comes back from the dead once per game. This can be an extremely frustrating mechanic to deal with.

My gut feeling is that probably he's a bit too tanky at the moment, and for an extra 20-40 points is a far better pick than a Marshal on Pegasus/Warhorse unless you particularly need the command ability. There's definitely a place for tanky heroes IMO.

Essentially it's important to point out, that this version of the Green Knight is pretty much better than both the prior versions in the Compendium and comes with 20 point price decrease.

 

So here are some things I would be consider if he turns out to be too powerful:

Lowering his wounds down to 6. 

Lowering the save of the foliate shield back to 6++. 

Upping his points.

Not necessarily all of them, but those are some options I feel. I think a safe bet, would be to put him back to 180 points and see if he requires further tweaking from there.

I see where you are coming from, but in that case I would trade that nerf for some more offensive power. Remember, aside from charges, the Bretonnians lack the amazing damage from the other factions.

 

also, how do you guys feel about giving the Paladin the command to buff peasantry? Like the new Lord-Ordinator who can greatly buff warmachines?

 

just to add more fun and good mechanics

[Diemer84]

Really looking forward to the next drafts with whatever edits you will make. Having a game against bretonnia next weekend, so I wait in eagerness.

Also, I think I forgot to mention the retreat and charge mechanic. I really dislike that. The ability to keep dealing mortal wounds each turn with an extreme range capacity(12"+3d6, from any model in the unit) is just too good. Also I hate it fluff wise. The one problem with the knights should be if they fail to do lethal damage on the charge and are stuck in a prolonged combat. They have no weaknesses right now.

 

Best regards

[Nielspeterdejong]

18 minutes ago, Diemer84 said:

Really looking forward to the next drafts with whatever edits you will make. Having a game against bretonnia next weekend, so I wait in eagerness.

Also, I think I forgot to mention the retreat and charge mechanic. I really dislike that. The ability to keep dealing mortal wounds each turn with an extreme range capacity(12"+3d6, from any model in the unit) is just too good. Also I hate it fluff wise. The one problem with the knights should be if they fail to do lethal damage on the charge and are stuck in a prolonged combat. They have no weaknesses right now.

 

Best regards

In which case they should do better in sustained combat. Though I quite like the charges, due to the fact that you still have to roll for them.

[SpiritofHokuto]

6 hours ago, Diemer84 said:

Really looking forward to the next drafts with whatever edits you will make. Having a game against bretonnia next weekend, so I wait in eagerness.

Also, I think I forgot to mention the retreat and charge mechanic. I really dislike that. The ability to keep dealing mortal wounds each turn with an extreme range capacity(12"+3d6, from any model in the unit) is just too good. Also I hate it fluff wise. The one problem with the knights should be if they fail to do lethal damage on the charge and are stuck in a prolonged combat. They have no weaknesses right now.

 

Best regards

Agreed it is a powerful ability but there are other favour token uses that are vying for the small pool which you'll have. Fluff wise see it as them having unparalleled sweeping coordination, also having to make and complete a charge move that turn could conceivably be a detriment. I could type up the ability with much the same wording as retreat but call it something different, however we feel that using existing terminology is the better call.   

[someone2040]

9 hours ago, Diemer84 said:

Really looking forward to the next drafts with whatever edits you will make. Having a game against bretonnia next weekend, so I wait in eagerness.

Also, I think I forgot to mention the retreat and charge mechanic. I really dislike that. The ability to keep dealing mortal wounds each turn with an extreme range capacity(12"+3d6, from any model in the unit) is just too good. Also I hate it fluff wise. The one problem with the knights should be if they fail to do lethal damage on the charge and are stuck in a prolonged combat. They have no weaknesses right now.

 

Best regards

Personally I agree to an extent, retreating is not a very Bretonnian thing to do and is supposed to be a clear weakness of Lance based Knights (In fact, in my version of Bretonnian allegiance you lose the 'Protection' bonuses if you retreat from combat). If you want Knights that are better in a protracted combat that should be a list choice and you lean on Questing Knights or Demigryph Knights instead.

That being said, I think it's definitely worth trying out for a while. With playtesting feedback, the developers can find out if it's something you always use your favour tokens on or not. It's possible you could be using favour tokens on more important things during the game, but you get one amazing retreat + charge off during the game. And that might be alright, or it might not.

[henin]

Once again I bring to you a new revised draft! Hope you enjoy! let me know how it is

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qTi3W93x9GsVDeJSw9QcU6mwG5IxbI-4/view?usp=sharing

 

edit: Missed the Defenders of the Realm

Edited March 19, 2018 by henin

[someone2040]

Some very quick feedback:

Marshal's Shield on the Demigryph Marshal is inconsistent with the other Marshal's shields.

Still disagree with Host Knights and Knights Unproven having Bravery 7. It's inconsistent with Demigryph Host Knights, and in general there should be a hierarchy between non elite and more elite units/heroes.

Really think Steady Aim would've been better kept on the Peasant Archers than Massed Archery. You've basically got 2 rules representing the same thing, firing lots of arrow (Arrowstorm and Massed Archery). It feels strange to have 2 abilities representing the same kind of thing. I don't think there are any other units in the game that have 2 abilities that proc on having large unit sizes.

The defensive stakes seems like a pure buff from old. I really dislike the whole dragging Stakes around, as it doesn't make logical sense in a battle. One idea I do kinda like is that they count as terrain and you get one set of stakes for free for each unit of Peasant Bowmen (and must be deployed at same time as Bowmen and within 3" of the unit. But anyway, I think it's far too good to just have them for free.

Still feel the Mounted Yeomen are just doing too much without any real justification. I mean, I think they're definitely better than Marauder Horsemen who are 10 points more. It also feels weird that they can become tankier than Knights by having more than 10 models in the unit.

[Nielspeterdejong]

Good evening,

 

thank you you for the update, I love seeing Bretonnia come to life like this

 

I looked it over, and there are some small things which I think would be more fair:

 

1) For Protection from the Spirits: I think we could make it simpler: “Nobility units may ignore wounds and mortal wounds on a 6+ dice roll. Peasantry units may gain this effect as well, provided they are within 6” of a Nobility Hero.

 

With all the nerfs this would really help them out, especially since they get most of their boons only in the turn they charged. And if they are charged instead they gain no boons at all. This would help them be a bit more durable in sustained combat.

 

2) Nature’s wrath: It feels like it is missing something. Right now it is too situational.

 

Perhaps we could add 2 versions to the spell:  you can choose to either:

A) Target a Terrain and all units within 6” suffer D3 mortal wounds (this seems more fair for range, as 7+ is a high casting cost).

or B ) we could give the spell the option to be cast on a single enemy target dealing D6 damage, but if the enemy is not within 6” of any terrain then you must roll a dice and succeed at a 3+, or the damage becomes D3 instead.

 

This would also give the Bretonnians their direct damage spell. 

 

3) I miss the +1 protection from the spirits boon for the Blessed Lake. Right now it is not worth the cost. For 100 points you can get a game changing Balewind Vortex. Why would I want to spend points on it now? It is definately not worth it for the summoning, unless you make it so that summoning the Sons of Breton would not cost any points, which might make it overpowered.

 

Might I recommend returning this feature? As the General can no longer gain this effect as one of his command traits.

 

In addition, I would add that summoning the Sons of Breton does not cost any points, but each turn afterwards the Damsel must recast the spell at a +1 difficulty per turn after casting to maintain them. If she fails then the Sons of Breton will be removed from play and cannot be summoned in this manner again. Afterwards the Blessed Lake will lose the “Protection from the Spirits” boon for the rest of the battle. Sons of Breton which were summoned with points don’t cause these penalties, and they may move in the movement turn when summoned. 

 

4) For it’s cost the Field Trebuchet should have 3 attacks instead of 2, like the hellfire rocket launcher. 

 

5) with a 7+, perhaps the Lady wills it could be in every situation and not just in charges? That way it would also benefit the Questing Knights for example. 

 

Or better yet: make it so that it triggers on a natural 6 Wound roll on non-mount attack’s after a charge. This way the lances for example for the Demigryph knights are no longer a must, as each Nobility unit has a equal chance of getting the mortal wounds during a charge. But the lances let you deal more damage with it.

 

6) Perhaps the Green Knight his Foliate Shield could instead cancel mortal wounds on a 4+? Similar to the Bastiladon. Also he only has 1 hoof attack, and 4 instead of 5 blade attacks. (This is provided the Protection from the Spirits works in the combat phase as well). 

 

7) The rangers are too expensive for what they do now, 60 points would be fine. Especially when compared to Chameleon Skinks, who can appear everywhere. 

 

8) Demigryph: I would once again give the Demigryph the option to get lances. Both will gain the same chance to deal the mortal wounds (provided you go with my idea), but the lances would deal more damage.

 

8) Men at arms: I feel that the 5+ original safe was fair, as they only gain the +1 save if they didn’t charge. I would return this, as that defensive stat is all they have going for them.

 

9) bowmen: I’m fine with these changes, provided Stakes gives some protection against large targets. Perhaps this as additional text: “Enemy units with a move of 7 or higher (like Saurus Knights) suffer a -2 on charge rolls against this unit, provided it did not move in the movement phase and there are no enemy models within 3” of this unit.”

 

I love how you made this simpler though, nice work!

 

10) Battle Pilgrims: I like the changes! However, I would give them 2 attacks instead of 1. As that seems more fair for their cost. 

 

11) The exemplar Order: I love it! Great idea  I would remove the limit though, orcs Warboss don’t get an limit either.

 

12) Where is the defenders of the realm?

 

——

 

These are my suggestions after taking a quick look through it. I think that changing “the Lady wills it!” to that it triggers on natural dice rolls of 6 (ignoring modifiers) after a charge would feel more natural. And the other changes would help them in small areas where  they could receive some love.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Nielspeterdejong

[Nielspeterdejong]

Also, how do you feel about using the model for the Free Guild Generals as a potential model for a Arch Duke on Griffon?

[Nielspeterdejong]

23 hours ago, someone2040 said:

Some very quick feedback:

Marshal's Shield on the Demigryph Marshal is inconsistent with the other Marshal's shields.

Still disagree with Host Knights and Knights Unproven having Bravery 7. It's inconsistent with Demigryph Host Knights, and in general there should be a hierarchy between non elite and more elite units/heroes.

Really think Steady Aim would've been better kept on the Peasant Archers than Massed Archery. You've basically got 2 rules representing the same thing, firing lots of arrow (Arrowstorm and Massed Archery). It feels strange to have 2 abilities representing the same kind of thing. I don't think there are any other units in the game that have 2 abilities that proc on having large unit sizes.

The defensive stakes seems like a pure buff from old. I really dislike the whole dragging Stakes around, as it doesn't make logical sense in a battle. One idea I do kinda like is that they count as terrain and you get one set of stakes for free for each unit of Peasant Bowmen (and must be deployed at same time as Bowmen and within 3" of the unit. But anyway, I think it's far too good to just have them for free.

Still feel the Mounted Yeomen are just doing too much without any real justification. I mean, I think they're definitely better than Marauder Horsemen who are 10 points more. It also feels weird that they can become tankier than Knights by having more than 10 models in the unit.

I strongly disagree. They lack the variety of the free guilds, and if they want to compete then they definately need those boons. I’d argue the stakes should also give -2 charge against enemy units with move 7 or higher (like Saurus Knights).

 

this makes sense as the longbow men had stakes which could hinder cavalry. 

[henin]

A little experimental draft but indeed a new version! I hope you all enjoy!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Iyir3nveQC3_nvCE8Y4Sh1HllgYUJ-lK/view?usp=sharing

[Nielspeterdejong]

I am not sure what is different here?