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Bretonnia Battletome Project


henin

Unofficial Bretonnian Battletome  

249 members have voted

  1. 1. Would a full unofficial Bretonnian Battletome for AoS interest you?

    • Yes! I have something to offer for this project so i will notify you!
      16
    • Yes! I would love to see this and really hope it gets done!
      146
    • Sure, hope it happens.
      44
    • Nah, too complicated...
      7
    • No I am fine with things as they are.
      21
    • NO! DEATH TO THE LADY!
      23


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Alternatively, we could make it so that all Damsels know the "Sons of Bretonnia" spell, with the limit that it may only be cast from a Blessed Lake. Meaning that you either have to spend 100 points to field at least one, or you choose the 3th option from the Finest of Bretonnia battle trait. 

 

In hindsight, we think this might be the best, as it makes more builds equally viable :) In which case the 3th option for the Finest of Bretonnia Battle Trait could simply give you a Blessed Lake for free, which you can then place in the set up phase from one of your Damsels. 

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1 hour ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

You are most welcome :) However, with all the (very fun!) new strong factions coming out, I once again wish to stress that you should not be too afraid to make them powerful. Remember, all the other factions are getting updates as well (such as undead), meaning that it's best to compare them to the newer factions, and not the currently weaker older ones.

 

In fact, we looked at the new Daughters of Khaine Allegiance traits, and realized that our 4 Bretonnian traits were basically weaker versions of theirs, and that we could even amp them up a little bit and also make them simpler. The other ideas we had in this page, and which we hope you will consider using, stay the same though:

 

Protection of the Spirits: The Gheist are long dead spirits of noble champions, come to aid the Bretons in their times of need. They are especially drawn to noble champions, but are willing to aid the peasantry through the guide of a Damsel as well. Whenever a Nobility unit suffers a Wound or Mortal Wound you may roll a dice. On a 6 or more the Wound is negated. Peasantry units may gain this boon as well provided they are within 6" of a friendly Damsel Hero

The lady Wills it!: Stays the same.

The Lady's Favor: Unless specified otherwise, you must choose to spend a Favor token before making the related rolls: 1) Reroll ALL save rolls 2) Reroll ALL hit rolls 3) You may choose to reroll failed charge rolls AFTER charging 4) The target unit does not have to roll for battle shock results this turn 6) Nobility mounted units may and must both retreat and charge in the same turn (provided you also add the change to the Revivification spell that I posted a few comments back). 

Finest of Bretonnia: You may now choose one of 3 options: 1) Exceptional Steeds:  All your mounted Heroes may gain one of the exceptional steed traits, as listed in the PDF.  2) Banner of the Lady: You may choose one Paladin Standard Bearer (you must field one in order to gain this boon), and grant it a free banner Artifact. However, you may not field any more Paladin Standard Bearers as the Banner of the Lady must shine brightest and uncontested.  3) Chosen of the Fey: One damsel in your army may be a chosen of the Fey. This Damsel may deploy a Blessed Lake in the set up phase, free of cost. However, you may not field any additional Blessed Lakes. The Chosen of the Fey Damsel knows and may cast the "Sons of Bretonnia" spell from a Blessed Lake, towards enemies within 18" of it. You may choose a standard Terrain feature, and declare that it is a Blessed Lake. 

 

The first Battle Trait is a weaker version of the Daughters of Khaine Battle trait, as only Nobility units are able to move independently. While Peasantry units only gain this boon if they are within a specific type of Hero, not all Heroes, making it a weaker version of the Undead Battle Trait.

Taken into account that The Lady Wills it Battle Traits only helps the Breton untis in a charge, and the Lady's Favor is only for one unit for one turn, and you only start with 1 Token per Hero that you field, as well as that Finest of Bretonnia gives you the option to choose one of 3 situational boons, this would seem fair. Keep in mind that these Battle traits are more limited, but in exchange allow for more unique options. 

I Firstly I think that the battletome needs to be balanced, in such a way, that the Bret player always has a fighting chance, even against a top tier army. Now that is dependent of multiple variables, but it generally mean have some of the same type of mechanics, units etc. on approximately the same level as the other armies. With that said, for a group to adopt a 3rd party product, it must ere on the side of caution in terms of the level of power of said mechanics. Which I think the latest version and revisions etc. does.

I also believe, which is the case in my gaming group as well, that placing it somewhere around the middle of the level of power of the current armies is a good way to go. That way, there is less of a chance that it would be disallowed for being too powerful. Considering that 5 Grail Knight has the ability to theoretically deal 30 mortal wounds on a 4+ wound on a charge,  is nothing to scuff about... just saying.

Soon the beta will be released, and further testing will eventually lead to a final product, which I imagine will receive both FAQ, errata and running updates, to ensure that the fighting chance against all armies and all updates e.g. GHB18, will remain.

Not saying your not right in your assessments of the current version, just that I think the cautionary approach is a good one. :)

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Oh I very much understand that, and I agree :) However, the Daughters of Khaine would still be more competetive for example. This because A) all of their units gain that defense trait while they can move independently from heroes, unlike Undead armies, and B ) they are far stronger in prolonged combat while having a lot of ways to easily deal mortal wounds. Breton Nobility units also have that independence with their defense trait, but not Peasantry. And seeing as you will usually take 1 damsel (or 2) per army, and you want to keep her more to the back, that means that that trait is more meant to help Peasantry units Protecting the Damsel.  (which fits with the lore!) Making them heroic enough to benefit from the Gheist's protection. If you want to field Peasants, you will always end up with having to send most forward to key positions, while keeping just a few back to protect your Damsel. Hence why it is a weaker version of the protection Battle Trait that other armies have.

 

Same with the others, as The Lady Wills it! only benefits your mounted units and only while they charge. And you still have to roll well in order to gain those mortal wounds, while the Daughters of Khaine have a much easier time dishing out mortal wounds and are far better in prolonged combat. With The Lady's Favor only helping a single unit for one turn, with a limited amount of charges. And Bretonnian's Finest only A) benefits your Heroes mobility, or B ) grants you a limited free item and only to a certain unit, or C) grants you a extra terrain but one which will be placed on your side of the map, and will be mostly used defensively and will not help with claiming objectives.

 

The Daughters of Khaine have two Battletraits, but they are far more powerful. With the second one greatly aiding your units in prolonged combat. While their standard units are also a lot more powerful, able to dish out mortal wounds with ease!

But that is what I like about Bretonnia: They are a mounted army of noble knights, who are protected by benevolent spirits of Ancient Nobility, able to perform great deeds, whose armies have been blessed with greater mounts/a sacred Banner/a Chosen of the Fey Damsel. Their charges are devastating, but their weakness lies in their prolonged combat. which is why it will also be important to field the cheaper and more numerous Peasantry. Keep in mind that aside from their charges, and potentially their "Sons of Bretonnia" spell (provided fielding a Blessed Lake grants Damsels access to this spell), they have very little options to deal mortal wounds. Meaning that their strength lies in mobility, great charges, and sturdy knights.

 

The 4 Battle Traits are meant to strengthen the aspects of Bretonnia for which they are most known. Giving them 4 weaker Battle traits as opposed to 2 stronger ones. Just like the Legions of Nagash Battle Traits, with the Legions of Nagash being far more competitive though. 

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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Also I noticed how many factions have 2 battletraits, but they are either insanely good or split in several parts. How does this sound as their new battletraits?

 

The Lady’s Chosen: Nobility units may roll a dice once they suffer a wound or mortal wound. This Wound is ignored on a dice roll of 6 or higher. In addition, when a mounted Breton unit charges and rolls a 6 or higher on wound rolls in the same turn with its non-mount melee attacks, it will instead deal mortal Wounds equal to its current damage characteristic.

 

The Lady’s Favor: While the Peasantry are not part of the Lady’s chosen, they do enjoy her favor. As long as you have a Damsel Hero currently in your army, you may give one of your Peasantry units one of the following boons once per turn. Nobility units may gain these boons as well, but they must spend a Favor token each time they use it. However, they may spend as many Favor tokens as they can per turn (though not multiple on the same target). You start with a number of Favor tokens equal to your number of Hero units, and you may gain a new one each time you slay a Hero or monster. Once you no longer have any Damsels in your army, you may no longer receive the Lady’s favor. 

1: You may reroll all failed hit rolls for this unit this turn.

2: You may reroll all failed save rolls for this unit this turn.

3: You may reroll the failed charge roll for this unit this turn, and you may choose this after having initially rolled for its charge.

4: This unit does not have to take a battleshock test this turn. 

5: A Mounted unit may gain +1 attack with their non- mount attacks this turn.

6: This turn a Mounted unit may and must retreat and charge in the same turn. 

----

With these battletraits, perhaps we could add the following additional effects to the Blessed Lake (still 100 points, and retains its previous boons): 

*All Damsel Heroes know the spell “Sons of Bretonnia”, (18” range from the caster) but they may only cast it while within 10” of a Blessed Lake. 

*Healing and resurrection effects are doubled on units within 6” away from the Blessed Lake

You can simple designate a random terrain as being a “Blessed Lake", put it into play and let it grant you its boons.

 

Also, perhaps we could give a trait to the Damsel and Enchantress, stating that each time a Damsel Hero suffers a wound or mortal wound roll a dice. On a 3+ a Nobility unit within 3” of the Damsel may suffer it instead. 

 

As for Revivification, may I propose this?: Cast roll 7: the target heals D3 wounds. In addition, it resurrects 1 lost model (if any), or D3 if the models of the target unit have a wound characteristic of 1.

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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Oh and don't forget, pretty much every faction has a way of dealing a lot of mortal wounds right now. And seeing as aside from King Louen and the General on Griffon (if you are okay with that), they don't have any monsters. Meaning that the 6+ on wound rolls in all phases would be crucial for the knights. We could instead of this boon grant my suggestion of a free Blessing of the Lady to one of your poor Peasants. Because peasants are filthy and they could use the love. Or they could gain this boon while within 6" of a Damsel as well?

 

Also, aside from charges, they lack ways of dealing mortal wounds, Perhaps one of their 6 spells could be a damage spell? or they could cast the Sons of Bretonnia spell as long as they are within 10" of a Blessed lake?

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Also, in Warhammer Total war the grail relique gives a leadership boon to nearby allies and makes them immune to psychology.

 

Perhaps the Grail relique could also boost Peasantry units (so not Nobility units). How about we also give those within 9” of the grail relique the “Stubborness” boom from the dispossessed? On a natural dice roll of 1 to 3 this unit does not lose any additional models. And in addition all Peasantry units within 9” gain an additional attack in the combat phase?

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This could be the new Inspired Fervour ability from the Battle Pilgrims, and the base hit of the Battle Pilgrims could become 4+, and the base wound could become 3+ instead.

 

This will be a straight buff, but it would give them a place alongside the cheaper Men at Arms. And after discussing we think it would not be too powerful, even with the extra attack. 

 

After all, the Grail Relique would only affect Peasantry units, so Battle Pilgrims could be very valuable for Peasantry heavy armies. Allowing nearby Peasantry to ignore battleshock on a 1-3 dice roll, and gaining another melee attack. 

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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Speaking of ideas, perhaps we could make the 3 Bretonnian traits in the following fashion: One for Nobility, one for Peasantry, and one for all?

 

1) Chosen of the Lady: The Nobility units gain the mortal wounds on a wound roll of 6+ In the combat phase after a charge. As well as the ability to ignore Wounds/Mortal Wounds on a 6+ Dice roll in all phases. To reflect their amazing charges, as well as divine protection. This due to the Gheist Spirits strengthening and protecting Bretonnia’s Nobility. 

 

2) Sacrement of the Lady: The Peasantry units gain something that reflects their courage based on the amount of Nobility Heroes you have. We could give them the legions of Nagash new Deathly invocation ability. With the idea that more filthy peasants are joining the crusade, inspired by their Noble heroes, to fill the place of those poor peasants lost during the battle. Each Nobility Hero may bring back D3 wounds worth of lost Peasantry models in 2 Peasantry units within 12” of them. One additional unit if the Hero is a Damsel or a Legendary Hero. 

 

3) The Lady's Favor:  The boon for all would be The Lady’s Favor, where you gain a starting Favor token for each Hero that you field. But also with my suggested boons to them (however now without the free Favor for a Peasantry unit each turn):

1: You may reroll all failed hit rolls for this unit this turn.

2: You may reroll all failed save rolls for this unit this turn.

3: You may reroll the failed charge roll for this unit this turn, and you may choose this after having initially rolled for its charge.

4: This unit does not have to take a battleshock test this turn. 

5: A Mounted unit may gain +1 attack with their non- mount attacks this turn.

6: This turn a Mounted unit may and must retreat and charge in the same turn. 

 

This basically means that Breton units have two traits, but with the first two having different effects based on the type on unit. With Nobility units becoming more durable and gaining godlike charges. And Peasantry units relying on large numbers of expendable units. 

 

How does this sound? :)

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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We talked it over with more players, and they felt that our previous ideas (The New Battletraits, as well as the Grail Relique change to the Battle Pilgrims) would be balanced. We did so by comparing it to the current Daughters of Khain Battle traits. These namely let all Daughters of Khaine roll dice rolls on Wound/Mortal Wound rolls of 6 or higher without having to be near heroes, and also allowing them to reroll hit/Wound/save rolls etc of 1 after they enough turns which stacks. The Nobility units of Bretonnia would also gain this trait, as well as the Mortal Wounds instead of normal Wounds on a wound roll of 6+ after a charge. This would make it more powerful, but this is to compensate for the "The Lady's Favor" trait, as that is a weaker compared to the Daughters of Khaine their second trait. The Lady's Favor only affects one unit for one turn, and even though it is stronger, it is still just for one unit while having a limited amount of uses. 

 

The Peasants would not gain the offensive and defensive boon that the Nobility units gain, but instead they would gain a boon based on their large numbers. Allowing them to replenish lost models (basically crusading peasants would move in to replace those fallen on the battlefield. We could call this second trait "Sacrement of the Lady", as the Lady of the Lake blesses even the lowly peasantry of Bretonnia, whom she grants fortune in their daily professions. In exchange the peasantry are willing to die for her. Joining grand crusades to fight alongside her chosen Knights, even if they are not the Lady's chosen and do not receiving the protection and might of the Gheist like they do. When Peasantry models are removed from a unit, brave and zealous Peasants quickly move forward to fill the ranks. Provided a Noble Hero is nearby to grant them the courage to move into the fray.  

 

Regardless, all Bretons are favored by the Lady. And are able to perform great and heroic deeds, which could dictate the outcome of a battle. From the mightly Knights, chosen of the Lady. To the lowly Peasants, grateful for the fortune that the Lady grants them in their difficult lives. 

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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This would also have better synergy with my proposed additional effect to the Blessed Lake terrain: All healing and model restoration effects are doubled for friendly affected units within 3” of a Blessed Lake. This to compensate for the Peasantry no longer having the ward save, as their model restoration will be greater instead. However, the Blessed Lake is still stationary, meaning that affected units can’t go after objectives. (A Blessed Lake can be a basic terrain, which you can then set up in addition to the other terrains, and place it 6” away from a Damsel in the set up phase. 

 

with that in mind, perhaps the Sons of Bretonnia damage spell could be used instead of Nature’s wrath? Where the spell can only be cast from terrain, but the Terrain then also counts as a Blessed Lake? It could work as a foot of Gork, but with Peasantry units being able to pray to support the spell on a 3+ (high spellcast roll necesarry, gaining +1 Spellcast per successful prayer). However, if the spellcast fails then the Damsel suffers the anger of the Sons of Bretonnia and is damaged for D3 mortal wounds. 

If the targeted Terrain for this spell is already a Blessed Lake, then you may succeed in dealing D6 mortal wounds to enemies each time you roll a 3+ instead of a 4+ on the dice to determine if you can deal damage again.

 

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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4 hours ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

This would also have better synergy with my proposed additional effect to the Blessed Lake terrain: All healing and model restoration effects are doubled for friendly affected units within 3” of a Blessed Lake. This to compensate for the Peasantry no longer having the ward save, as their model restoration will be greater instead. However, the Blessed Lake is still stationary, meaning that affected units can’t go after objectives. (A Blessed Lake can be a basic terrain, which you can then set up in addition to the other terrains, and place it 6” away from a Damsel in the set up phase. 

 

with that in mind, perhaps the Sons of Bretonnia damage spell could be used instead of Nature’s wrath? Where the spell can only be cast from terrain, but the Terrain then also counts as a Blessed Lake? It could work as a foot of Gork, but with Peasantry units being able to pray to support the spell on a 3+ (high spellcast roll necesarry, gaining +1 Spellcast per successful prayer). However, if the spellcast fails then the Damsel suffers the anger of the Sons of Bretonnia and is damaged for D3 mortal wounds. 

If the targeted Terrain for this spell is already a Blessed Lake, then you may succeed in dealing D6 mortal wounds to enemies each time you roll a 3+ instead of a 4+ on the dice to determine if you can deal damage again.

 

We really appreciate all your insights! Thank you for all this support. I will be posting the new draft momentarily!

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Hello Henin,

 

Thank you for the updated draft. We like some of the new changes that you added, yet also feel that other changes are a bit unwarranted. I think you guys are still too afraid of making your army "OP", to the point that it has become too complicated and underwhelming. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to give other players the impression that your Battletome is too strong, however after the new Legions of Nagash I really think even your first draft was a bit on the weak side. 

 

Remember, you did mention that this Allegiance is meant to make playing Bretonnia models viable again. At it's current state I fear that people will play one or two matches, and then put their army away again and play the new Allegiance armies because that is the only chance they have at winning. While the Bretonnia Warscrolls have decent defenses and good mobility, they lack the flexibility and ability to deal mortal wounds that all of the newer models have. There is no problem with that, but in that case they will need to gain their strength from their battle traits as well as unique abilities. 

 

I understand that you want to keep them on the weak side, in order to prevent people from complaining about playing them. Therefor we have discussed some suggestions based on the current way you are going. We tried to make these without giving them a chance to be as competitive as the current new armies. yet still strong enough that they can compete with the old armies. Keep in mind that aside from their charges the Bretonnian units are pretty mediocre, so we based that on our previous plays with them (we love the direction you have taken with them, and understand where you are coming from): 

 

1) Protection from the Spirits (can you also just change this to Protection of the Spirits? We simply called it like that as it felt more natural): Just change it so that NOBILITY units can ignore Wounds/Mortal Wounds on a dice roll of 6+ in ALL phases. Right now your current description is just too complicated, and will just make the games unnecessary long while making the supposedly tanky Knights weak as kittens in prolonged combat. This also has the nasty side effect that you will HAVE to use the Lady's Favor battletrait solely for the retreat and charge trait, as your units are now fully reliable on it as they cannot be allowed to stay in combat. Most only have 2 wounds, so any unit that has a chance to deal mortal wounds will just destroy them. Just put up some fodder, and they are dead unless you pull them immediately out, jeopardizing objectives. 

2) The Lady's Favor: I take it that with the description you mean that you can only spend one Token per turn? If so then that would neuter the battletrait. Just change it to that it instead is written that one unit is limited to receiving one Favor per turn, but that you can spend multiple per turn. Also make sure to add that the Favor Tokens can be spend on dice rolls that have already been rolled, otherwise it would just be too weak of a battletrait. Meaning that if you fail a charge you can spend a Favor token to reroll a failed charge. 

3) Exceptional Steeds: Please remove it. It was complicated, annoying to remember, and most of the time we just forgot about it. Instead, just give a 4th Battletrait that actually benefits the Peasantry. Right now ALL battletraits benefit only nobility, so people will build ONLY Knight armies, which is not fun, and not balanced to say the least. Please use my following suggestion: 

4) Add a different 4th Battletrait: This could be called Devoted to the Lady (or how you would like to name it), instead of Exceptional Steeds: Giving the Peasantry their own version of the "Deadly Invocation" ability that was just introduced in the Legions of Nagash. This is an already existing trait, and it can reflect the very numerous and devoted Peasantry, as they become inspired by their beloved Noble Heroes, and quickly refill the ranks of units who lost models. With all NOBILITY HERO units being able to restore D3 wounds worth of Peasantry models to up to 2 Peasantry units within 12" in the Hero phase. Named Heroes and Handmaiden Heroes may target an additional Peasantry units (2 if the Handmaiden unit is a Morrigna). 

5) Fair Tailwind: For a spellcast of 5+ required I think it would be more fair to let the spell move the target unit 3 inches in any direction in the Hero Phase. Plus an additional D3 inches if the target unit can fly. This will allow for much more synergy with the other items and abilities in the roster. 

6) Nature's Wrath: For a 7+ spellcast I feel that it would be fair to also allow the targeted terrain to also count as a Blessed lake for all intents and purposes. (I like your ideas to the other spells though). 

7) Duardin Greathelm: Change this so that it allows you to re-roll all failed Save rolls, as you already have a favor token that can do this for you. (We like the rest of the changes to the items though). 

8) Prayer Icon of Quenelles: I would recommend also adding +1 to Unbind spells, to make the item more viable. 

9) Blessed lake: I like the direction you took with this, but I would recommend the following additional changes: 

*Mystic Shimmer also affects our proposed "Devoted to the Lady" battletrait: the amount of returned Peasantry models that had been previous lost in a Peasantry unit increases by 1 for Peasantry units within 12" of a Blessed Lake.

*We simply love the suggested summon (I take it the base models will be the hexwraiths, due to the scythes?), however we feel that you could add something unique to it. Something that allows you to summon the Sons of Breton with the spell, but you can choose not to spend points in them, however in return they would only last until the start of your next turn. We would recommend adding the following line behind it: "In addition you can choose not to spend points when summoning the Sons of Breton, however they will then only exist on the battlefield until the start of your next Hero phase after which they will be removed, and you may not place them within 9" of enemy units during the summon. When summoning the Sons of Breton with this spell without any point cost, you must roll a dice and let the unit gain the following effects:

1: The Sons of Breton may not move in the movement phase, nor charge this turn.

2-5: The Sons of Breton may not move in the movement phase, but they may attempt to charge this turn.

6+: The Sons of Breton are not hindered in their movement this turn. 

Morrigna may add +1 to this dice roll.

10) Battle Pilgrims: We strongly disagree with the changes to the Battle Pilgrims, both to their Point cost as well as their Warscroll. To show why we want to compare them to a 60 point unit from the Undead: The Dire Wolves. They also have 5 models but they have 10 Bravery, 2 Wounds, 10 move, 5+ save (4+ if near a Corpsecart), similar hit and wound (also +1 to wound when charging, not bound by models), AND 2 attacks instead of 1 per model. Therefor we want to propose the following 2 changes: 

*Lower the point cost to 40 points per 5 models. This also gives the Bretonnians their 40 point cost units, which most other armies have as well.

*And  also add the following text to the Grail Relique ability: Peasantry units within 9" of the Grail Relique MODEL gain an additional attack in the combat phase, and do not lose any more models if they roll a natural 1 or 2 in the battleshock phase (ignoring modifiers). 

This would warrant their Warscroll a lot more, and make them a more supportive unit who can then be used to make Peasantry units more viable in armies (so that people won't field only Nobility unit armies). 

11) Battalion costs: While we feel that the Battalions feel a lot more natural, and the wording makes much more sense, we do feel that for some battalions the price cost is a bit too high. For example, if we compare it to the Legion of Sacrament battalion (which costs 70 points), we gain +1 to spellcast on the Undead casters, and +1 save on all wizard heroes. As such we wanted to propose changing the point cost to the following values: 

*Peasant Militia: 70 points

*Defenders of the Realm: 70 points

*The Order the Chasseurs: 80 points (also I would remove the text stating that the Questing vow replaces the Lances and Swords ability, otherwise this situational anti-monster boon would not be worth it).

*The Order of the Burning Lance: 60 points

*The Sage Order: 80 points

*Brothers of the Round: 60 points (as it only affects the battalions 1-2 units of Men at arms. If the two abilities will also affect the Nobility units from this battalion, provided that the Noble Champion is still alive, the cost could be increased to 80 points).

*The Exemplar Order: Due to having only one ability, as well as a pentalty, we would recommend one of the two following changes: Either A: reduce the cost to 60 points, or B: grant them a second boon, which grants a free Artifact to the Marshal on Warhorse. 

*The black Brotherhood: 60 points.

Keep in mind that even with these low costs the battalions will still be mediocre compared to the most recent battalions from other factions. However, these changes should make Bretonnia competetive enough to have a chance at fighting the newer Allegiance armies. 

 

----

 

Again, we like the direction you are going with this. But please keep in mind that matches are only fun if you have a decent chance at winning. Even with these suggested changes they will still not be up to par with the newest Battalions, but good enough to give enough of a chance to win. Creating a army that relies on either mobile elite units, or large hordes of weak fodder to grint enemies down, or both!

 

 

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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I just made some small tone downs in my previous draft. However we really hope you will consider our proposed suggestions, as they would add for a lot more synergy with other aspects of this Allegiance.

 

I hope we weren't too harsh in our previous post, but we really want this Breton Allegiance battletome to become successful. And part of that it not only having a fun one that has good synergy with it's content (in which you mostly succeeded by now, though I think our 11 suggestions would really freshen it out), but also have a decent chance at winning. The charges are great, but keep in mind that a 200 point unit of 10 Knights Unproven only has a chance to deal mortal wounds during a charge, and still has to succeed at hitting a target with a 66% chance, so say that 7 attacks go through. Then of these 7 attacks on average two will score a total Wound of 6+. That is still 4 mortal wounds ONLY during a charge for these 200 point cost units. Giving them the 6+ Ward save in prolonged combat, so not just during a charge, would be more then fair I think.

 

And again, we never used the Exceptional Steeds Battletrait, so we really hope you will consider removing that, and instead add the proposed suggestion for a different 4th trait that benefits the Peasantry (all other traits just benefit the Nobility, or in the case of the Favor benefit the Nobility the most). And even with all of our suggestions, they would still be sub-par with the newest Allegiance armies, due to their amazingly strong Warscrolls. 

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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Here's my feedback on what you've done:

Protection of the Spirits - I think it's too complicated at the moment, and you have to make a hard call as to what exactly you want it to protect from. The simplest thing would be to have a 6++ all the time, or only against particular types of attacks (Missile weapons and spells for example). The fact that it occurs in the hero or charge phase just feels odd, as you can have combats that happen in the hero phase as well.

Favour Tokesn - For number 6, I don't think there's a real reason to restrict it to Cavalry units. 

Virtue of Guardian Gheist and Shield of the Lady - Dislike multiple things that add to your save. It basically encourages you to stack bonuses to make an unkillable hero (in particular the King on Hippogryph).

Spells - Fair Tailwind - Unsure if it's weak or not at the moment, but probably you should specify it can only effect BRETON units.

Spells - Fateful Boon - It feels a bit strange that the lore ability (roll 10+ grants you a token) and there's also a spell to do so. I would consider changing one or the other (i.e removing the lore attribute or replacing this spell).

Spells - Obfuscation of Spirits - In line with the ethereal changes, I would consider modifying it to ignore all modifiers to their save rolls. I think GW are starting to crack down on making stuff 'unkillable' which is an important consideration since you have access to re-roll save rolls of 1 through favour tokens.

Spells - Revivify - The wording on the other parts of this spell is kinda weird at the moment. I would probably reword it so it's "That unit may return 1 slain model, or if it is a PEASANTRY unit it may restore D3 models instead. If the unit is within 12" of a Blessed Lake, then you may restore 1 additional model."

Exceptional Steeds - The steeds aren't super interesting at the moment, so I would consider removing it or fleshing it out to 6 with some more interesting attributes (Such as being better in combat). One example could be that for Warhorses or Pegasi they can become a Unicorn, and gain a Horn attack or something.

Artefacts - Siriennes Locket - The additional protection against rend - weapon seems unnecessary. It's like you're trying to force this extra thing onto an artefact that already seems quite interesting.

Blessed Lake  - This currently has the Arcane Ruins keyword.

Host King of Breton - The lady's champion special rule should mention that you only generate a favour token if the army is a BRETON army.

Host Knights - 5 Knights is not really massed cavalry, so I would change it back to 10. The bonuses are meant for large units after all, not min sized ones.

Bravery  - Overall I'm not sure there was a need to push the Bravery of Unproven, Host, Pegasus Host up. Like, why are Host Knights having more bravery than Demigryph Knights? Or why are they the same as Unbroken, doesn't really feel right.

Bowmen - There is just... way too much going on here now. Like, why do they get 2 bonuses for being in large numbers? It's like, this unit just gets bonuses to everything it cares about. Better hit rolls, better wound rolls, defenses against charges. I would definitely ditch Massed Accuracy, and either consider keeping Steady Aim, bring back Virtue of Empathy, or just reduce points if you think they're not good enough as is. The stakes seem unnecessarily clunky as well in determining who gets extra damage, just be simple, and use the MONSTER keyword. Behemoth is not a keyword by the way, and isn't applicable outside Matched Play.

Mounted Yeomen - Another classic case of adding stuff and now the unit just feels like fanmade because it's got all these special rules that add to what they do. Like why do these guys get Swift Volley and Hit and Run? I think it was good enough that they served a role as a chaff unit that got ahead of your lines from their bonus. The Wooden Shields also feels a bit strange, I think you either make it a permanent thing, or you make it a thing (like Grot shields, also ******) that only kicks in when there's a certain number of models in the unit.

Field Trebuchet - Crew have Free Peoples keyword rather than Breton.

Rangers - I actually like this unit because it feels like it does what it says on the tin. Ambushing shooting unit that has some interesting special rules. The Falconer might be a bit too reliable of a synergy, as the warscroll may as well just have a hit value of 3+. Potentially I would do something like make it work on a 3+ or something, as the Falcon may not return or something like that.

The Great White Hart - Make the Grand Quest is Nigh work for a BRETON allegiance as Favour Tokens are meaningless outside it.

The Ragged Brotherhood - Specifically mention for Coordinated Strike it's from the Rangers warscroll.

The Order de Chasseurs - Just specifically spell out the bonuses Knights Unproven get, it's a bit clunky to say use this but replace this text. In the same amount of words you can pretty much just spell out that ability anyway.

Pitched Battle Profiles -

Rangers should easily be 100 points.  They've got special rules out the wazoo, and are actually a competent shooting and combat unit (even if their profile is nothing special). 

I really don't think Peasant Bowmen should be Battleline. I think it has potential that you just fill your battleline with Bowmen and then invest in the better cavalry units in the army, which I feel is a bit of a disservice to Host Knights. That's my personal thoughts, and all I'd say is keep an eye on it if you get some meaningful data back in terms of competitive lists and the like.

If you want extra battleline opportunities, then I could see a world where Pegasus and Demigryph Knights are battleline if BRETON. That way you can build themed armies around them if you choose to focus on Bretons.

Still think that Forlorn Knights have an extremely good special rule in being able to pile-in and attack before being removed. It's much better on them than on Blood Warriors who don't have rend -1 attacks.

Battle Pilgrims could probably do with a drop to 40 points. 

Knights Unproven should be 100/360 (In line with other 100 point units with large unit discount).

 

 

Anyway, that's the stuff I picked up on my 2nd to 3rd read through of it and without trying to theory craft any lists.

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You are welcome, and thanks! Please don’t see this feedback as being negative, but I play a lot with a friend who runs a free guild army, and we both brainstormed on how this would work out in practice.

 

We would especially recommend trading the exceptional steeds trait for one that benefits the Peasantry as well.

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5 hours ago, someone2040 said:

Bowmen - There is just... way too much going on here now. Like, why do they get 2 bonuses for being in large numbers? It's like, this unit just gets bonuses to everything it cares about. Better hit rolls, better wound rolls, defenses against charges. I would definitely ditch Massed Accuracy, and either consider keeping Steady Aim, bring back Virtue of Empathy, or just reduce points if you think they're not good enough as is. The stakes seem unnecessarily clunky as well in determining who gets extra damage, just be simple, and use the MONSTER keyword. Behemoth is not a keyword by the way, and isn't applicable outside Matched Play.

 

I really don't think Peasant Bowmen should be Battleline. I think it has potential that you just fill your battleline with Bowmen and then invest in the better cavalry units in the army, which I feel is a bit of a disservice to Host Knights. That's my personal thoughts, and all I'd say is keep an eye on it if you get some meaningful data back in terms of competitive lists and the like.

Yea even me who is still quite new to AoS noticed the bowmen having quite a lot going for them. We don't want another Savage Orruk Archer meta now do we (though the orruks have a magic item to blame for that one).

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5 hours ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Hmm, honestly I don’t know. The crossbowmen for example could fire twice as well:

 

aos-warscroll-freeguild-crossbowmen-en.p

 

perhaps we could instead make this similar to the reload fire mechanic?

So what does that have to do with Peasant Bowmen?

Like, the point is, not every unit has to be the same. Some units are allowed to be worse than others.

Peasant Bowmen already have quite a good ability in Arrowstorm. That's their 'fire twice' ability if you will.

And at the end of the day, you're comparing Peasants with trained soldiers. They should be worse. And that's not to say they are better, I'm just calling it as I see it, the unit has too many special rules and to some extent which bloats the unit, they've stopped feeling a bit like Peasants now.

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48 minutes ago, someone2040 said:

So what does that have to do with Peasant Bowmen?

Like, the point is, not every unit has to be the same. Some units are allowed to be worse than others.

Peasant Bowmen already have quite a good ability in Arrowstorm. That's their 'fire twice' ability if you will.

And at the end of the day, you're comparing Peasants with trained soldiers. They should be worse. And that's not to say they are better, I'm just calling it as I see it, the unit has too many special rules and to some extent which bloats the unit, they've stopped feeling a bit like Peasants now.

Unless they somehow turned into demons like the dinosaur dudes!  But unlikely.

 

I'd say keep arrowstorm for the one turn hurt (but risky if someone kills off the unit before they can pop it off) and the braziers for wounding potential but remove the to hit bonuses to show they rely on sheer number of attack dice rather than accuracy. The stakes, while a longstanding  part of the bowmen, should also probably go. Though maybe they could be taken as a terrain feature?

Edited by kenshin620
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2 hours ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Personally I think the Longbowmen are fine. Remember, the Bretonnian are inspired by both France and England, and in the 100 year war those longbows kicked ******!

 

Even in historical wargames, the longbowmen doesn't come with 4-5 special rules to differ them from other ranged units. Unless you're the stupid samurais from WAB of old...

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First of all, a great cadeu for making this battletome.  Awesome awesome work.

I have been testing and comparing a lot of units and abilities from the battletome, and I have a few suggestions for it.

Protection from the spirits: Hero, shooting and charge phase. really odd. I like the fluff of it being in the shooting phase. But in the hero phase to save against spells and the charge phase it a little odd. The rule should be simplified.

Favour tokens: It should be very clear when these can be used.  Right now you could make your to hit rolls, get a lot of ones and then choose to use a token. The token should be used o a unit in the beginining of a phase.

Fair Tailwind: Should say "until next hero phase".

Obfuscation of the spirits: Should not be able to improve or decrease saves. Just immune to rend. Just like Death units have it now.

Revivify: The text is unclear and difficult to understand how many returns and the exact conditions.

Siriennes Locket: Should say "rounding down" and also discard the 5+ ability completely

Men-at-arms: should be a 6+ save as standard instead of 5+. right now it´s 60 pointsfor 10 men with a 4+ save with shield, which is easily made immune to battleshock! what a steal.

The green knight: Probably the most broken thing in the tome for 160 points!!! compare it with the mourngul at 350 and you will realise the beggist difference is 3 wounds. The mourngul even lost the ability to negate wounds at 5+ save. which the green knight still haves. The diffrence with them is 3 wounds, the moungul has´-1 to hit and can regenerate.

The green knight instead can come back from the dead, negate wounds on a 5+, actually hits better and has the ability to do 5*1d3+1 mortal wounds on the charge on a 5+, which is easiliy improved.

Perhaps the green knight should loose his blade of old, and foliate shield.   And even then he should still be set at perhaps 220 point cost.

My two cents. best regards

 

 

 

Edited by Diemer84
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