looking for support Bretonnia Battletome Project

[Lord Bretonnia]

6 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

I will try to use my latest proposal

 

Though could you do me a favour? Could you quickly make my version of the King (24” range abilities, called King Leoncouer, and 13 wounds). That way it will be easier for us to use. 

Sure.... If you are able to, I would like for you to test both his weapons.

king-leouncouer.pdf

[Nielspeterdejong]

I will try, though we also wanted to try out the enchantress. However we will definately try some matches with him.

 

Oh, and it’s King Leoncouer, you accidentally misspelled it and didn’t change the keywords in the description. However that is nitpicking, and we will try your warscroll for him

[Diemer84]

Very nice work with the tome so far, I am impressed and really like the idea.

A few comments on what I have seen so far:

1/ Why have you chaged the spell of the Fay enchantress to give +1 TH and +1 TW and casting 8? I think it makes the spell very risk/reward. But also the +1 TW would make 10 grail knights mortal wounds machines, dealing 30+ mortals and equally many rend -1, which sound like too much to me..

2/ the favour tokens, love ém. But the retreat/charge mechanic seems very un-bretonnian, and also extremely potent. Being able to break from combat and doing a charge 20 inches awar from the combat perhaps even with the above mentioned buffs...  what map control!

3/ The spell that offers +2 to save seem imbalanced. combined with mystic for +3. Does really¨get the normal AoS feel with such powerstacking.

4/ achers, making them hit on a 2+ doesn´t feel right for peasant bowmen...

What I could remember after a quick read :-)

 

[SpiritofHokuto]

53 minutes ago, Diemer84 said:

Very nice work with the tome so far, I am impressed and really like the idea.

A few comments on what I have seen so far:

1/ Why have you chaged the spell of the Fay enchantress to give +1 TH and +1 TW and casting 8? I think it makes the spell very risk/reward. But also the +1 TW would make 10 grail knights mortal wounds machines, dealing 30+ mortals and equally many rend -1, which sound like too much to me..

2/ the favour tokens, love ém. But the retreat/charge mechanic seems very un-bretonnian, and also extremely potent. Being able to break from combat and doing a charge 20 inches awar from the combat perhaps even with the above mentioned buffs...  what map control!

3/ The spell that offers +2 to save seem imbalanced. combined with mystic for +3. Does really¨get the normal AoS feel with such powerstacking.

4/ achers, making them hit on a 2+ doesn´t feel right for peasant bowmen...

What I could remember after a quick read :-)

 

Yeah I'm still not sure about that spell. I don't think it's massively overpowered in and of itself but as you said the way Bretons can leverage it means that the Enchantress is somewhat of an auto-include.

Retreat and charge is a very powerful ability but as others have said Bretons need a bit of a leg up. Retreating may seem un-chivalrous but if it's to face the existing enemy or a new one with renewed zeal I think it fits with the fluff. I'll probably put a stipulation in that the unit must attempt a charge after the retreat move.

Yeah that spell is being replaced. The idea I'm thinking of is basically a spell that gives a unit pseudo-ethereal, so they gain the benefit of ignoring Rend for a round.

As far as I can tell the only way to make Bowmen hit on a 2 is to not move, have 20 or more of them, and to be in range to benefit from a Celestial Hurricanum. Powerful on the Arrowstorm turn to be sure, but that's using all your ally points up and it'll be tricky to try and get your cavalry in a position to benefit from the CH as well.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Personally I think the enchantress spell is fine, as you only benefit from most traits if you successfully charged. Without the charges the Knights don’t perform that well as I found out. And those charges are their only source of mortal wounds aside from spells.

 

As for the bowmen, even with my suggested boons, crossbow men from the Free Guilds will always outperform them. Trust me on that ;p

Edited January 22, 2018 by Nielspeterdejong

[Diemer84]

I think the crossbowmen should be better than peasant archers. I havent dont the math on the crossbowmen. But the danger with the bowmen is the once per game ability to autodelete most things. 3+TH reroll 1s(token), 4+ TW reroll 1´s with 90 attacks, gives me an average og 42 wounds for 30 bowmen. 

I would like to warn about the retreat and charge. With puny slow skaven clanrats it can be a game-winning map control move, for fast moving high damaging bretonnian  knights, it takes them up a power level for sure and changes their gameplay drastically, making them almost impossible for opponents to tie up/respond to.  Haven´t tested it with knights, but I have used skaven tactics a lot;-)

Best regards

[Nielspeterdejong]

Therefor I agree with that if a knight unit retreated that he may but also must charge in the same turn  

 

Also for Skaven, use the borrow and get behind them: Once stuck and without fly, they get destroyed pretty quickly

[Nielspeterdejong]

So I managed to get one of my friends tonight, and we are going to try this alternative Bretonnia Battletome idea Also I will add some of the features mentioned here (like having to Charge in the same turn that you retreat). Also we looked over the current version of King Leoncouer, and we agreed that the price of 400 points would be fairer. And the Lions Lance now only rerolls hit and wound rolls of 1 if you charged in the same turn. Also we added the effect from the Seraphon's Shadowstrike Starhost to the Royal Airforce battalion, to give the Bretonnians some more tactical options. I will list our current changelist here as well as my army list, and then tonight I'll let you guys know how it went

 

1) Protection of the Spirits: All BRETON units may ignore wounds and mortal wounds on a dice roll of 6 or higher in the shooting phase. If the Breton unit is within 6" of a BRETON HERO  it may gain this effect for all phases and not merely the shooting phase. A BRETON unit within 6" of a DAMSEL may re-roll failed Protection of the Spirits dice.

2) The Lady's Favour: The Lady's favour protects both its Peasantry and Nobility, granting different effects to both as long as your army is graced with a DAMSEL hero. Peasantry units may roll two dice during a battleshock, and pick the lowest value. Mounted Nobility units may and must both Retreat and Charge in the same turn, meaning that once you retreat out of combat (Move +D6) you can and must immediately charge towards an enemy unit of your choosing within that turn. If you no Longer have a DAMSEL within your army, then your units may only benefit from these boons if they start the movement phase within 6" of your General. 

3) Virtue of Favour: The Virtue of Favor now instead gives all BRETON units within 6" of your General a +1 on their Protection of the Spirits rolls. 

4) Virtue of Duty: The range of the command trait increases to 9" similar to the Free Guild people. 

5) Remove Exceptional steeds: This only makes it more complicated, and it's strength has been added to the new Lady's Favour. 

6) Lore of the Lady: We looked at the Lore of the Lady, and while we liked the idea behind them, we felt that some of their casting values were a little bit too high. Reducing the casting value of some spells would seem fair, especially considering that Bretonnia has no effects (except for the Sons of Bretonnia spell) that increase the casting values of your spells, they only allow you to reroll them:

The casting value of Fair Tailwind could become 4+, and for Revivify 8+. Nature's Wrath can stay the same if it also includes our idea (see below).

7) Fair Tailwind: We would suggest to make it so that the unit can move in any direction, not just away from the spell caster. The distance also becomes D6" instead, and if the unit is mounted then it may add +1 to this dice roll. Flying units may move double this amount. Also for clarification, add the following text: "The friendly unit may not be placed closer then 1/2" to a enemy model. Moving them in this manner will not count as its movement, as it has not moved on its own". That way flying units like Pegasi can make the most out of this, as they could potentially be moved over enemy units they are in combat with, and charge again in the same turn.

8) Entanglement: We liked the idea behind it, but I would add that the halved values would be rounded down. This would be fair for a 6+ casting value spell, as there is still a chance that the enemy might reach it's target (unless you roll a 10+, for which you should be rewarded).

9) Nature's Wrath: We like the idea behind it, but we feel that it is lacking a bit. We wanted to also add the "Dwellers below" effect in addition to it's current effect, as in that any enemy model within 3" of the terrain (unless it's a monster unit) must roll a dice. On a 6 or more they suffer 1 mortal wound. If these models have the DEATH or DAEMON keywords then you may add +1 on these dice rolls.

Seeing as this is a 7+ spell which only works on enemy units near terrain (meaning that they can easily avoid it) this would be a more then fair compensation for this. 

10) Remove the spell Strengthen Spririts, and replace it with Sons of Bretonnia: This spell will be based on the Sons of Bretonnia: http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sons_of_Bretonnia which are the male counterparts of the Damsels. The Damsels can attempt to summon them, but their pent up rage can be hard to control. Nearby Peasant units may attempt to aid the Damsel during the spell, by praying to the Lady of the Lady, and strengthening the Damsels magic with their faith.

Sons of Bretonnia: Sons of Bretonnia has a casting value of 10+ to cast. When casting the spell, roll a dice for each PEASANTRY unit within 10" of the Damsel. On a roll of 3 or more the Damsel adds a +1 on her spellcasting for this spell. Mounted Squires and Battlepilgrims allow you to roll two dice instead of one. A Blessed Lake within 10" automatically grants her a +1 on this spell cast. However, if she fails to cast the spell the power will backfire onto her and she will suffer D3 mortal wounds. If successfully cast, inflict D6 mortal wounds on a unit within 18". Then roll a dice - on a 4 or more the Sons of Bretonnia will relentlessly continue their assault. Resolve another D6 wounds on a eligible unit. The Sons of Bretonnia keep on their assaults until you fail to roll a 4 or more. 

11) Revivify: The explaination is a bit confusing here, and I would add the following additional text: "Any excess wound points may then be used to heal one of the units models."

12) Artifacts of Legends: We felt that the Paladin with Standard was a bit underpowered for it's cost, and as such we wanted to add the following changes to the Artifacts of Legends item list: "NOBLITY HERO units with the TOTEM keyword provide your army with a free Magical Standard item each, but it may and must only be equipped to them." 

This is in addition to the standard item you gain, as well as the items you gain for each battalion that you field. This would also be fair, as the 100 point cost Paladin with Standard is really weak without it, and by giving him this standard he can no longer be improved with other items. Think of it as giving them one of 3 abilities, at the expense of not being able to wield other items. 

13) Shield of the Lady: The text is changed in the following way: "Add 1 to this models save rolls. In addition, this model may add 1 to it's Protection of the Spirits roll in the shooting phase."

14) Sirienne's Locket: we wanted to add the following text after it: "If the attack has a damage characteristic of 1 and "-" rend, then for each wound suffered you may roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more the wound is negated."

15) Prayer Icon of Quenelles: While we like the originality, we feel that it is not worth an item. As such we instead wanted to remove this effect, and give it a previous item effects which you removed:

"The Damsel may cast one additional spell per turn". 

16) Twilight Banner: We wanted to add the following text after its current text: "If the friendly BRETON unit can already fly, then add +1 to its run and charge rolls instead". 

17) Mounted Squires: Give Mounted Squires the Peasantry Keywords, as they are basically Peasants trying to attain Knighthood (This way they will not benefit from the Retreat and Charge from the Lady's Blessing, but they can aid the Lady with casting the Sons of Bretonnia spell). In addition  the Mounted Squires their save will be 4+ instead of the current 5+ (They do cost 80 points per 5 models after all, and this would seem fair when compared to other units). 

18) Foot Knights: We think that Foot Knights should gain the Nobility Keyword as well.

19) Peasant bowmen: My friend is a competitive Free People's player, and often deploys Crossbow men who cost 100 points, and who can fire twice in their turn with a 4+ to hit and wound as long as no enemy is within 3" and they didn't move. It also has a ability that allows all its models to fire upon a enemy unit that has charged it as an interrupt, as well as a ability that allows some of their attacks to have -1 rend. Seeing as the Peasant Bowmen are supposed to be the best battleline archers around, he felt that their price could be reduced to 100 point (and a 40 model horde could cost 360 points) while also buffing them a little bit. These were his suggestions:

Stakes: "Once per battle the Peasant bowmen unit can set up Stakes in the Hero phase. Any enemy unit that finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit must roll a dice. On a 1 nothing happens, on a 2 or 3 the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds, and on a 4 or higher the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds and its models will be pushed back 3^1/2" and may not pile in. The protection of the stakes is lost if the Peasant bowmen unit moves or is attacked in the combat phase."

Burning Braziers: Add the following text in front of the Burning Braziers text: "Once per battle the Peasant bowmen unit can set up Burning Braziers in the Hero phase."

20) Woodsmen: We like the concept of these guys, but when compared to for instance the Chameleon Skinks they are a bit lacking. We were thinking about giving their Woodman's bows a -1 rend. In addition, add the following text to Ambush: "If the model is placed within terrain then it suffers none of these restrictions, and may be placed in the first turn on any terrain".  And change the text of Surefooted Stalkers as following: "If a model from this unit would be slain while on terrain, roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more, the model deftly avoids harm and is not slain."

(The -1 rend feels fair as the Chameleon Skinks have 10 attacks for 120 points, with 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound. And the change to Ambush would give you the same flexibility of the Chameleon Skinks, however only provided you put them on terrain. With all these restrictions, and the greater cost, changing the Surefooted Stalkers trait to avoid being slain on a 4+ for all effects did seem more then fair to us. Meaning that your Woodsmen will be more restricted then the Chameleon Skinks, but if you put them in terrain they will be a bit more durable). 

21) Brothers of the Round: My friends and I felt that some of the Battalions could receive some love. The Brothers of the Round battalion reminded him of a Free People's one, and he recommended adding the following text after the second Ability text: "If the unit contains any Standard Bearers, then none of its units flee on a roll of 1 or 2. 

22) Seeing as you need FIRESLAYER units for the Order of the Burning Lance, I think it's important to add the Fireslayers as potential allies. 

23) When comparing the Field Trebuchet with the Canon, I feel that 180 points would be more then fair as they are very similar. With each having advantages over the other. 

24) For the SAGE'S ORDER, change the allies to COLLEGIATE ARCANE, and exchange the Swordmasters for Foot Knights. In addition, we were thinking about changing the text as following:

*All units in the Sage's Order may re-roll hit rolls of 1 if they are within 10" of a COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD. If they already have this effect, then they may reroll all failed hit rolls.

*Friendly COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD units add +1 to their casting rolls if they are within 10" of a unit from the Sage's Order. In addition, the COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD from the Sage's Order gains the BRETON and NOBILITY keywords and can temper with the fates. Once per phase you can increase or decrease the result of a single dice roll for this unit  by one.

In addition the battalions cost could be decreased to 120 points, as the second trait mostly only affects the Sage’s Order Wizard. 

25) Royal Airforce: The first ability also gives your Pegasus Knights their lances a -1 Rend. In addition, remove the current second ability and give the battalion the Stealthy Advance and Strike from the Skies abilities from the SHADOWSTRIKE STARHOST for all units under the battalion. The former lets its units advance 2D6 at the end of the Set-up Phase. The latter allows them to be placed outside the board in the set up, and then placed anywhere on the map but 3+ away from enemy models in any of your movement phases, and you may then add +1 on wound rolls for these units in their next combat phase. The only restriction is that you may choose only one unit from this battalion which may be placed outside the board for the Strike from the Skies ability. With this the point cost could remain 160 points, as that would be fair for their new abilities.

26) Perhaps the Ragged Brotherhood could be reduced to 120 points, and the Peasant Militia to 80 points? Looking at what you gain for their cost this did seem like a fair cost reduction to us. 

27) The Examplar Order: We liked how it had a restriction, but at the very least we feel that for 120 points it should have another trait. As such we were thinking about adding the following second text: "All units from the Examplar order may add +1 on their hit rolls if they are within 10" of the Ducal Lord on Warhorse from this battalion, and they made a Charge move this turn. 

28) The Black Order: We feel that for 100 points he should have another ability trait, and as such we were thinking about adding the following second trait: "Enemy units within 8"must always make a battleshock test, and must ignore effects that would otherwise prevent them from doing so. In addition, if your opponent makes a battleshock test for these units roll a dice. If the result is higher than the result of your opponent's dice, D3 additional models flee from the unit (as well as any that flee because of the test).

29) King Louen Leoncouer will instead become King Leoncouer, as he is a descendant and the current King of Bretonnia. The Fey Enchantress on the other hand doens't feel too powerful for her cost, so I think that she can also be a generic lord known as Enchantress again. 

The only other Lord that I think should be a named character is the Green Knight. We could make the story that King Leon Leoncoeur and the Fey Enchantress have dissapeared. Presumably dead, but his descendants have survived. Rumors being that the Lady of the Lake sired the first descendant of King Leon Leoncoeur's bloodline, as she was madly in love with him. This would also be fair, as his version of the Green Knight is strong (yet for 180 points fair), so he has no need for an additional item or Command traits.

We talked it over, and we agreed that Lord Bretonnia his new Warscrolls and point costs for The Green Knight and the Grail Knights are spot on, so we wanted to include that as well:

 

On 1/21/2018 at 1:37 PM, Lord Bretonnia said:

I have made examples below of how I think the below three units needs to look.

Point cost for the version of the units I propose are as follows:

Green Knight 180

5 Grail Knight 200

grail-knights.pdf

green-knight.pdf

As well as an updated version of his version of King Louen Leoncouer, now instead named King Leoncouer:

10 hours ago, Lord Bretonnia said:

Sure.... If you are able to, I would like for you to test both his weapons.

King Leoncouer 400

king-leouncouer.pdf

However, the Lion Lance ability now only lets you reroll hit and wound rolls of 1 if you charged in the same turn. 

Both King Leoncouer and The Green Knight are named characters, and as such can't be equipped with weapons.

30) We loved the idea of adding the Demigryph Knights to the Bretonnian roster, but how about you also add a Breton version of the General of Griffon? You could use the concept of the Freeguild General on Griffon https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-freeguild-general-griffon-en.pdf while replacing some keywords for the unit and its abilities, and also giving the Charging Lance a +1 on wound rolls if the model charged this turn. That way he could be a cheaper alternative (260 points like the standard General on Griffon) to the Bretonnian King. Also this would give Bretonnia a much needed Monster unit. This NOBILITY HERO could be called a ARCHDUKE ON GRIFFON, giving you more options to choose from. 

31) Pegasus Knights: Their cost could be reduced to 160 points, while their current Warscroll remains the same

32) The Order of the Burning Lance: Change the first text as following: "All units from the Order of the Burning Lance add one to their charge rolls. In addition, all of their non-mount attacks deal 1 additional Mortal Wound on a wound roll of 6 or more, provided they charged in the same turn."

In addition we wanted to make the Archduke on Griffon an alternative option to the Ducal Lord on Demi-Gryph for this battalion. 

33) The Order of Chasseurs: We were thinking about making the requirement 1-3 Knight Errant units. In addition we wanted to add the following text at the end of the second text: "In addition the Knight Errant units from this battalion gain the Questing Vow ability from the Questing Knights. Provided they are within 10" of a Questing knights unit."

34) Defenders of the Realm: We felt that the Defenders of the Realm was a bit lacking, therefor we wanted to add the following lines at the end of the second text: "In addition, the charging units from this battalion attempt to trample lesser foes. All of their hoof and talon based attacks deal D3 damage instead of 1 against non-monster units, provided they charged in the same turn. During this time the Demi-Gryph their Savage Ferocity allows them to deal 3 damage instead of D3."

In addition we wanted to add that instead of the Ducal Lord on Warhorse you can choose Archduke on Griffon as well.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Nielspeterdejong

[Nielspeterdejong]

This will be my army list for tonight: 

 

King Leoncouer 400

Royal Airforce 160

Archduke on Pegasus 140 (Silver lance of the blessed) 

Pegasus Knights 160

Pegasus Knights 160

 

Damsel 100 (Carries the prayer icon, and knows the spell Revivification). 

 

Exemplar order 120

Ducal Lord on warhorse 100 (shield of the lady)

Unit of 5 Knights errand 100

Unit of 10 Knights of the realm 240

Unit of 5 Knights of the realm 120

Unit of 5 Grail Knights 200

 

Total= 2000 points

 

This build will be an all knight build. The upside of this is that it could allow for some devastating charges. The downside is that once you are charged first you will lose many of your bonusses (both offensive, and defensive), and you must be able to pull back all your units towards safety if you want to cycle charge with them. However this could potentially be a pretty strong build, so wish me luck

Edited January 22, 2018 by Nielspeterdejong

[Lord Bretonnia]

Looking forward to hearing how it went!

I think its perfectly fine to reduce the lance's ability to only reroll 1s!

[Nielspeterdejong]

So that was a fun match! I lost, but I went against Stormcast and they had a lot of tools to use against me. My charges were devastating, as was the Archduke on Pegasus that I was able to swoop in on one of his key units. (the other Two pegasi helped as well, they did great charges!). But his teleportation allowed him to keep my cavalry stuck. King Leoncouer was a beast though! Well worth the 400 points (though not too strong for that cost), and his superior stats allowed him to free up some of my knights. Sadly my Damsel got sniped, so only my Lord and my Pegasi Knights which I put close by were able to cycle charge from there on. 

The mobility of Bretonnia is great though! There in lies their strength. However, once you get stuck and your knights are unable to pull out and then cycle charge back in, you lose your mortal wound chance as well as many offensive and defensive boons. Basically their entire strength is based on finding those glorious charges, while more durable units like King Leoncouer are able to attack key positions and hold them off.

This basically confirms my request for adding the Archduke on Griffon, as Bretonnia really needs him as a monster unit for this. However, I found them to be a ton of fun, and allowing your enemy to ruin your cycle charges is indeed a fair counter I think. Basically without the charges they are very mediocre units. Hence why mixed cheap Peasant and charging knight armies might be the most optimal, just like with Bretonnia in Fantasy  

The 6+ Ward save was pretty situational though, and even with it being free in the shooting phase I still suffered great damage on my knights (without charging they lose the +1 save, which also only works in the combat phase). Their lords often don't have the most HP, so the boons to the items were definitely needed! And again, I think the Archduke on Griffon would be a great addition as the armies only monster unit aside from King Leoncouer. 

Overall I think that it is fair to keep the knights so cheap, and allow them a chance to deal tons of damage when Charging. They can deal devastating damage at first yeah, but with enough enemy units screening they can get your knights stuck fast. So I think these boons are more then fair, as they do have their weaknesses and aren't as OP as some feared in practice.

Though then again, I would recommend trying this alternative version of mine out yourself. Me and my friends aren't the most competetive, even though we are decent. So perhaps you might come to other conclusions. Though for now I think these boons make them above average to good, yet making them strong enough to give them a good chance to defeat the top tier factions as well.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Nielspeterdejong

[Melcar]

17 hours ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

So that was a fun match! I lost, but I went against Stormcast and they had a lot of tools to use against me. My charges were devastating, as was the Archduke on Pegasus that I was able to swoop in on one of his key units. (the other Two pegasi helped as well, they did great charges!). But his teleportation allowed him to keep my cavalry stuck. King Leoncouer was a beast though! Well worth the 400 points (though not too strong for that cost), and his superior stats allowed him to free up some of my knights. Sadly my Damsel got sniped, so only my Lord and my Pegasi Knights which I put close by were able to cycle charge from there on. 

The mobility of Bretonnia is great though! There in lies their strength. However, once you get stuck and your knights are unable to pull out and then cycle charge back in, you lose your mortal wound chance as well as many offensive and defensive boons. Bsasically their entire trength is based on finding those glorious charges, while more durable units like King Leoncouer are able to attack key positions and hold them off.

This basically confirms my request for adding the Archduke on Griffon, as Bretonnia really needs him as a monster unit for this. However, I found them to be a ton of fun, and allowing your enemy to ruin your cycle charges is indeed a fair counter I think. Basically without the charges they are very mediocre units. Hence why mixed cheap Peasant and charging knight armies might be the most optimal, just like with Bretonnia in Fantasy  

The 6+ Ward save was pretty situational though, and even with it being free in the shooting phase I still suffered great damage on my knights (without charging they lose the +1 save, which also only works in the combat phase). Their lords often don't have the most HP, so the boons to the items were definitely needed! And again, I think the Archduke on Griffon would be a great addition as the armies only monster unit aside from King Leoncouer. 

Overall I think that it is fair to keep the knights so cheap, and allow them a chance to deal tons of damage when Charging. They can deal devastating damage at first yeah, but with enough enemy units screening they can get your knights stuck fast. So I think these boons are more then fair, as they do have their weaknesses and aren't as OP as some feared in practice.

Though then again, I would recommend trying this alternative version of mine out yourself. Me and my friends aren't the most competetive, even though we are decent. So perhaps you might come to other conclusions. Though for now I think these boons make them above average to good, yet making them strong enough to give them a good chance to defeat the top tier factions as well.

So how many times did you retreat and charge?

 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Melcar

[Nielspeterdejong]

1 hour ago, Melcar said:

So how many times did you retreat and charge?

 

 

Well still plenty, though not as much as I had hoped as the enemy was able to teleport behind me. And if you want to reatreat all of your models must be able to move back, and I believe that you could not move over enemy units unless you had flying.

 

I believe we were right in that? We assumed that as long as a enemy model was behind you, you could not retreat and charge. Which was a great counter from my opponent.

[SpiritofHokuto]

No I believe that the only qualifier for a successful retreat is that all models in the unit end up 3" or more away from any enemy models.

Skinks retreating through units to claim objectives is a main reason why they're so good.

[Nielspeterdejong]

17 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

No I believe that the only qualifier for a successful retreat is that all models in the unit end up 3" or more away from any enemy models.

Skinks retreating through units to claim objectives is a main reason why they're so good.

Ah, well that is good to know

It wouldn't matter though, as my units were pretty much surrounded. This means that your models may each seperately move in a straight line in any direction, as long as it's not over enemy models right?

[Nielspeterdejong]

But can anyone confirm this? When charging you can’t move over an enemy unless you have fly. Does the same count for retreat?

[SpiritofHokuto]

16 hours ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

But can anyone confirm this? When charging you can’t move over an enemy unless you have fly. Does the same count for retreat?

Yes, retreat is still considered movement and so can't be done over other models unless otherwise specified.

[Nielspeterdejong]

2 hours ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

Yes, retreat is still considered movement and so can't be done over other models unless otherwise specified.

And in order to succees at a retreat, all models must move 3" away right, meaning that if one enemy model is behind you, you cannot retreat? Or that other can retreat if they can move in one line past them without ending 3" near an enemy?

[SpiritofHokuto]

5 hours ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

And in order to succees at a retreat, all models must move 3" away right, meaning that if one enemy model is behind you, you cannot retreat? Or that other can retreat if they can move in one line past them without ending 3" near an enemy?

You can move your models in any order you wish. As long as at the end of their retreat move all models in the unit are >3" away from any enemy model.

[SpiritofHokuto]

So after much deliberation here's the first set of revisions that are being contemplated. Exact wording to be worked out if the suggestions pass muster.

1. Protection of the Spirits - change to "Each time a NOBILITY unit suffers a wound or mortal wound in the enemies hero and shooting phase. Roll a dice, on a 6+ ignore that wound or mortal wound.

2. Lady's Favour - Additional - If a friendly NOBILITY unit slays an enemy HERO/MONSTER, gain one favour token (up to a maximum of 6) Addendum - Only one favour token may be used per phase

3. Virtue of Favour - Additional "Add +1 to all friendly units Protection From the Spirits rolls, while within 6" of this model.

4. Virtue of Duty - Change to 9"

5. Fair Tailwind - CV5 friendly unit within 18", +3" to move.

6.Entanglement - Remove 10+ CV kicker.

7. Fateful Boon - CV6, gain 1 favour token, can't take total above 6 - Replaces Glimpse of Fate

8. Obfuscation of the Spirits - CV7, a BRETON unit within 18" ignores Rend. Replaces Strengthen Spirits

9. Revivify - CV8 friendly BRETON unit within 18" 1 slain model from that unit is returned. 1D3 for PEASANTRY unit.

10. Duardin Great Helm - Replace with "This model may re-roll save rolls of 1."

11. Ducal Shield - Replace with "+1 to saves if they made a charge movement this turn."

12. Guilded Cuirass - Replace with "Heal 1 wound every hero phase."

13. Sirenne's Locket - Add - "When this model suffers a wound from a weapon with Rend -, roll a dice. On a 5+ ignore that wound.

14. Tress of Isloude - Add - "+1 to wound rolls"

15. Silver Mirror - Remove LOS ignoring - Add "An enemy caster that is unbound by the Silver Mirror suffers 1D3 mortal wounds.

16. Prayer Icon of Quenelles - Replace with "Add +1 to casting rolls"

17. Twilight Banner - Increase range to 12"

18. Banner of Chalons - Replace with - "Enemy models targeting friendly BRETON units within 12" of this model, must re-roll to hit rolls of 6+ in their shooting phase."

19. Louen Leoncouer - attacks go from 4 to 6 on Sword of Couronne. Point drop to 360, Wounds down to 11 from 13, Lion Shield wording same as Ducal Shield plus unbind attempt.

20. Green Knight - Attacks go from 4 to 5, Foliage Shield go from 6+ to 5+, remove Summon Green Knight spell, wounds go from 5 to 7.

21. Ducal Lord on Pegasus/Demigryph - +1 attacks & wounds

22. Ducal Lord on Warhorse - Replace Lord of the Realm with: "Target NOBILITY unit within 15" may re-roll charge rolls and gain +1 attack if they charge this turn. Doesn't stack with additional attack from favour token usage."

23. Remove Mounted Squires, replace all references to Mounted Squires with Knights Errant.

24. Grail Knights - Grail Vow range increased to 12"

26. Points changes: Men-at-Arms 60 for 10/200 for 40, Peasant Bowmen 100 for 10, Grail Knights 180 for 5, Pegasus Knights 160 for 3, Trebuchet 180, Royal Air Force 140, Ragged Brotherhood 120, Sage Order 140, Exemplar Order 100, Defenders of the Realm 100,

27. Brothers of the Round - Ignore battleshock on a 1 or 2.

28. Add Fyreslayers as Allies

29. Black Order - Remove -1 Bravery, add "Enemy units must roll 2 dice and pick the highest when taking battleshock tests while within 3" of a unit from this battalion.

30. Order de Chasseurs - replace second ability with "In addition the Knight Errant units from this battalion gain the Questing Vow ability from the Questing Knights. Provided they are within 10" of a Questing knights unit."

31. The Lady's Favour - Favour Token Choice 6 - replace with "NOBILITY unit may retreat and charge this turn, however they must attempt to make a charge move this turn.

Edited February 2, 2018 by SpiritofHokuto

[Nielspeterdejong]

Thanks for the update!

 

Well it's a step in the right direction, but with the new Nagash coming up and being quite competitive (and yes, we are going to pick that up, Arkhan FTW!) I'm afraid that at most this army will see just a few plays and will then quickly be forgotten. Playing is only fun IF you have a chance to win. 

 

I understand using the favor tokens though, as I agree that that part of our previous idea was a bit too powerful, and we can tone down in that area. But that again leaves us with a few problems with regards to their overall strength. 

 

Let me reply directly to that: 

 

1) I see where you are trying to go with this, but what about peasantry units? What do they receive? Right now this is more flexible but also weaker version of the Undead trait. Perhaps you could add the text that all BRETON units within 6" of a BRETON HERO will receive this boon in all phases?

2) Yup, seems fair. Though I would remove the text that you can only gain one favor token per turn. Remember, someones you only succeed at weakening an opponent. And it would not be fair to force BRETON players to wait with killing a deadly unit one turn. 

3) Fully agree there, nice one!

4) Same, it's good that you keep it similar to the Free Guilds

5) Sounds fair to me, though I would also add that this would allow them to be moved outside 3" of enemy units. This way it would allow you to use the spell to cycle charge with a Nobility unit (to make it simpler you could just state that the target unit moves 3^1/2" in any direction).

6) Agree, though I would also add that the values are rounded down. For such a high spell casting cost that does sound fair. 

7) I like this change, though there should then be other ways for Breton to gain +1 on hit on attacks. There are a lot of -1 to hit spells and abilities in the current meta.

8) I would also add that it allows the target to ignore mortal wounds on a dice roll of 4+ or 5+. There is a similar spell like this for the Death faction, so it would be fair to keep it similar. 

9) Much better! But also add that it in addition also heals Nobility units for D3 wounds. 

10) Fair enough

11) Don't you mean shield of the lady? If so then that does sound fair I think. Though I would also give it a +1 on Protection of the Spritis rolls in the Hero and Shooting phases. 

12) I actually liked the D3 wounds to be healed, but this seems more fair. Seeing as this is restricted to champions, how about you add that the healing increases to D3 wounds if the unit is within 12" of a Blessed lake? 

13) Looking good!

14) Looking good as well!

15) Fair enough.

16) I strongly disagree with this. The damsels could really use the +1 spell being cast per turn. Especially with the new lore. I would make it so that they can cast one additional spell per turn (but not also dispell another spell per turn).

17) Sounds fair. But again, I would allow Standard Bearers to gain this item for free. Without it they are a very weak Hero!

18) That sounds fair I guess, -1 to hit is pretty strong. But then I would definately add my suggestion for the Protection of the Spirits, as well as make this item free for Standard Bearers.

19) Sounds fair to me! Though I would suggest also adding the Archduke on Griffon (and adding the Archduke on Griffon in some texts as well) for 260 points. 

20) For 180 points I would add the previous suggestion as well: That once he dies he can be summoned again, but then on a 5+ the second time, and a third time for 6+. But he can only be revived like this twice. 

21) Sounds good!

22) Very good idea!

23) That would make things less confusing yeah, no problems there.

24) Yup, seems only fair.

26) (this was meant to be 25 right?) The changes all sound good to me. Though I would really suggest adding my suggestions for the Peasant Bowmen. The Free Guild equavilent Crosbowmen have an ability that lets them counter attack a unit that charges them. I would first give them the option to put down those stakes in the Hero phase (same with the bonfire), as well as give the Stakes a chance (4+) to instantly push back one charging enemy unit outside the 3" range (and dealing D6 mortal wounds to large targets if those are pushed back instead of D3), but that the stakes are then removed (even if the enemy didn't attack them in the combat phase). 

27) Perfect!

28) Yup, fully agreeing there!

29) I like that change! But I would also add that enemy units nearby may not benefit from effects that lets them ignore battleshock results.

30) Perfect!

31) Sounds fair to me as well. 

 

I'm still not sold on Sage's Order, as it really feels there is something missing there. Also High elves don't give me that "Gandalf the Wizard helping the good people of middle earth" feel that I got when reading the lore of the Order. Having the Collegiate Arcane, and more useful abilities, would really help them out there!

Also, about Nature's Wrath, I understand not adding the extra damage effect, but might I recommend adding one additional feature? How about the target land also counts as a Blessed Lake until the start of your next turn?

 

Aside from that I like most of the changes. Though I feel they really need these few additions I mentioned to make them more competetive. They will still not be as good as the current meta armies, but they will be good enough to compete.

[SpiritofHokuto]

3 hours ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Thanks for the update!

 

Well it's a step in the right direction, but with the new Nagash coming up and being quite competitive (and yes, we are going to pick that up, Arkhan FTW!) I'm afraid that at most this army will see just a few plays and will then quickly be forgotten. Playing is only fun IF you have a chance to win. 

 

I understand using the favor tokens though, as I agree that that part of our previous idea was a bit too powerful, and we can tone down in that area. But that again leaves us with a few problems with regards to their overall strength. 

 

Let me reply directly to that: 

 

1) I see where you are trying to go with this, but what about peasantry units? What do they receive? Right now this is more flexible but also weaker version of the Undead trait. Perhaps you could add the text that all BRETON units within 6" of a BRETON HERO will receive this boon in all phases?

Yes this is intentional as it's one of three Allegiance abilities so it being weaker than the Death version seems right in line. 

2) Yup, seems fair. Though I would remove the text that you can only gain one favor token per turn. Remember, someones you only succeed at weakening an opponent. And it would not be fair to force BRETON players to wait with killing a deadly unit one turn. 

There shouldn't be a caveat that only one token can be gained per turn, but that only one token may be spent per phase.

3) Fully agree there, nice one!

4) Same, it's good that you keep it similar to the Free Guilds

5) Sounds fair to me, though I would also add that this would allow them to be moved outside 3" of enemy units. This way it would allow you to use the spell to cycle charge with a Nobility unit (to make it simpler you could just state that the target unit moves 3^1/2" in any direction).

It would be too powerful and negate the favour token usage if the spell could pull units out of combat. It still gives the utility of a +3" move plus charging with a favour token which is really powerful maneuverability. 

6) Agree, though I would also add that the values are rounded down. For such a high spell casting cost that does sound fair. 

As I said before, everything in AOS appears to be rounded up, so I see no reason that this would buck the trend.

7) I like this change, though there should then be other ways for Breton to gain +1 on hit on attacks. There are a lot of -1 to hit spells and abilities in the current meta.

Yeah I'm thinking maybe the Ducal Lord on Warhorse's command ability should be +1 to hit instead of attacks?

8) I would also add that it allows the target to ignore mortal wounds on a dice roll of 4+ or 5+. There is a similar spell like this for the Death faction, so it would be fair to keep it similar. 

Which spell is that? I based this off Neferata's signature spell but made it slightly worse as it's only fair that a special characters spell would be better.

9) Much better! But also add that it in addition also heals Nobility units for D3 wounds. 

10) Fair enough

11) Don't you mean shield of the lady? If so then that does sound fair I think. Though I would also give it a +1 on Protection of the Spritis rolls in the Hero and Shooting phases. 

No this changes all of the standard shields that heroes carry.

12) I actually liked the D3 wounds to be healed, but this seems more fair. Seeing as this is restricted to champions, how about you add that the healing increases to D3 wounds if the unit is within 12" of a Blessed lake? 

This brings it in line with similar items.

13) Looking good!

14) Looking good as well!

15) Fair enough.

16) I strongly disagree with this. The damsels could really use the +1 spell being cast per turn. Especially with the new lore. I would make it so that they can cast one additional spell per turn (but not also dispell another spell per turn).

Flat out way too strong. It would not only invalidate the other arcane items but most of the other items as well. 

17) Sounds fair. But again, I would allow Standard Bearers to gain this item for free. Without it they are a very weak Hero!

18) That sounds fair I guess, -1 to hit is pretty strong. But then I would definately add my suggestion for the Protection of the Spirits, as well as make this item free for Standard Bearers.

Giving out free items is a bad idea. The Paladin BSB is still a unit that needs to be finalised.

19) Sounds fair to me! Though I would suggest also adding the Archduke on Griffon (and adding the Archduke on Griffon in some texts as well) for 260 points. 

We're still working on what the final roster of units will be.

20) For 180 points I would add the previous suggestion as well: That once he dies he can be summoned again, but then on a 5+ the second time, and a third time for 6+. But he can only be revived like this twice. 

He still comes back on a 3+ so I think that is a happy medium.

21) Sounds good!

22) Very good idea!

23) That would make things less confusing yeah, no problems there.

24) Yup, seems only fair.

26) (this was meant to be 25 right?) The changes all sound good to me. Though I would really suggest adding my suggestions for the Peasant Bowmen. The Free Guild equavilent Crosbowmen have an ability that lets them counter attack a unit that charges them. I would first give them the option to put down those stakes in the Hero phase (same with the bonfire), as well as give the Stakes a chance (4+) to instantly push back one charging enemy unit outside the 3" range (and dealing D6 mortal wounds to large targets if those are pushed back instead of D3), but that the stakes are then removed (even if the enemy didn't attack them in the combat phase). 

I'm not convinced on the push back, I'm thinking more a negative to the charge roll is more approriate. Allowing for setup in a hero phase is something that's going to be implemented. 

27) Perfect!

28) Yup, fully agreeing there!

29) I like that change! But I would also add that enemy units nearby may not benefit from effects that lets them ignore battleshock results.

All Bravery/Battleshock based stuff gets countered by Inspiring Presence and the like so I don't feel like this should be an exception. That being said this battalion does need something else.

30) Perfect!

31) Sounds fair to me as well. 

 

I'm still not sold on Sage's Order, as it really feels there is something missing there. Also High elves don't give me that "Gandalf the Wizard helping the good people of middle earth" feel that I got when reading the lore of the Order. Having the Collegiate Arcane, and more useful abilities, would really help them out there!

If you look through the fluff document there's lore justification for it being Aelves.

Also, about Nature's Wrath, I understand not adding the extra damage effect, but might I recommend adding one additional feature? How about the target land also counts as a Blessed Lake until the start of your next turn?

That might be an idea, we're thinking about if there could be an interesting side effect for this spell.

Aside from that I like most of the changes. Though I feel they really need these few additions I mentioned to make them more competetive. They will still not be as good as the current meta armies, but they will be good enough to compete.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

1) In that case, perhaps it could instead be for all Breton units? It feels like the Peasantry got the shorter end of the stick here. 

2) That makes more sense then, though I think that that might be a bit of a problem. Right now the Bretonnians rely on large numbers of charging cavalry. Without the charge they are exceptionally weak. I think I would remove that, as they are already limited by a number of points available.

Also, perhaps we could change one of the current items? Which permanently grants one hero the ability to both run and charge. There is already a Command trait like that for the Death faction, so for a faction that relies upon charges so heavily it would seem only fair. 

5) I disagree on that for the same reason as the previous point: The knights are not that strong and cheap, meaning that you will field many. Plus you often just take one damsel, and only get one spell from the Lore of the Lady. As such you can use the Damsel to pull back one unit, but then you will have to use a Favor token to pull back another one. Also the spell can be counter spelled by enemy wizards. Perhaps you could increase the cost to 6 if you prefer that?

6) Fair enough, I think it will still be pretty powerful.

7) That would make more sense yeah, as you already get the +1 attack from the favor (again, I'd still add that you can use multiple Tokens per turn, just not on the same unit). 

8) The obfuscation of Spirits. In that case (looking at Neferate), I would make it at least the same Spell cast requirement as neferate (6), or better yet lower it to 5. As Legendary Lords often can cast better spells, but they also do cost more. You can then forget my suggestion to give a chance to remove mortal wounds. 

11) Ah, that makes more sense. 

12) Indeed, though I think the ability to heal more wounds when near a lake would also make the Lake more worth taking. And it would allow for better strategies. 

16) In that case, perhaps the item could gain an additional effect? Perhaps it could also allow the Damsel to cast one additional spell per turn as long as she is within 6" of a Blessed Lake?

18) Well in that case they really need an extra ability. The idea I had for the item was that it would grant them a "ability" of their choosing. However in exchange they could not be equipped with yet another item. Thus balancing it more

19) Alright!

20) So to understand this, even if you kill him you can get him back on a 3+ ? That would seem more fair for the price yes.

26) Well it doesn't have to be a pushback, but just something that punishes charging enemies just like the Crossbowmen have. Keep in mind that the Crossbowmen can do that once per turn, but they can do that every turn as they don't lose any effects that grants them that ability (unlike stakes). 

29) Indeed, but perhaps they could gain something like the Oldblood on Carnosaur its Blood Roar? Allowing the battallion to make a elite unit lose an additional D3 models. 

 

Thanks for all the good work

[SpiritofHokuto]

48 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

1) In that case, perhaps it could instead be for all Breton units? It feels like the Peasantry got the shorter end of the stick here. 

Well that unfortunately is the Peasants Lot. Extending it to the whole army would mean making the other Allegiance abilities less powerful to compensate.

2) That makes more sense then, though I think that that might be a bit of a problem. Right now the Bretonnians rely on large numbers of charging cavalry. Without the charge they are exceptionally weak. I think I would remove that, as they are already limited by a number of points available.

Realistically you don't want to be charging with more than a few units in one turn due to the IGYG activation of units in combat so I don't feel this limitation is all that bad.

Also, perhaps we could change one of the current items? Which permanently grants one hero the ability to both run and charge. There is already a Command trait like that for the Death faction, so for a faction that relies upon charges so heavily it would seem only fair. 

That is definitely a good idea for a command trait, and they're not set in stone yet.

5) I disagree on that for the same reason as the previous point: The knights are not that strong and cheap, meaning that you will field many. Plus you often just take one damsel, and only get one spell from the Lore of the Lady. As such you can use the Damsel to pull back one unit, but then you will have to use a Favor token to pull back another one. Also the spell can be counter spelled by enemy wizards. Perhaps you could increase the cost to 6 if you prefer that?

It seems fine as is. An easy to cast, useful spell with plenty of utility.

6) Fair enough, I think it will still be pretty powerful.

7) That would make more sense yeah, as you already get the +1 attack from the favor (again, I'd still add that you can use multiple Tokens per turn, just not on the same unit). 

8) The obfuscation of Spirits. In that case (looking at Neferate), I would make it at least the same Spell cast requirement as neferate (6), or better yet lower it to 5. As Legendary Lords often can cast better spells, but they also do cost more. You can then forget my suggestion to give a chance to remove mortal wounds. 

Bringing it down to a 6 is definitely a consideration.

11) Ah, that makes more sense. 

12) Indeed, though I think the ability to heal more wounds when near a lake would also make the Lake more worth taking. And it would allow for better strategies. 

Yeah we're still working out how to integrate the Lake better, so ideas like this are very welcome. 

16) In that case, perhaps the item could gain an additional effect? Perhaps it could also allow the Damsel to cast one additional spell per turn as long as she is within 6" of a Blessed Lake?

I did think of this but then it's essentially like buying another Damsel (except one has +1 to cast) and just puts a big fat target on her delicate head.

18) Well in that case they really need an extra ability. The idea I had for the item was that it would grant them a "ability" of their choosing. However in exchange they could not be equipped with yet another item. Thus balancing it more

Is the Bravery buff not enough? With him nearby Peasantry go up by 3 Bravery, plus any other heroes nearby Peasantry can get very respectable Bravery.  

19) Alright!

20) So to understand this, even if you kill him you can get him back on a 3+ ? That would seem more fair for the price yes.

26) Well it doesn't have to be a pushback, but just something that punishes charging enemies just like the Crossbowmen have. Keep in mind that the Crossbowmen can do that once per turn, but they can do that every turn as they don't lose any effects that grants them that ability (unlike stakes). 

The Stakes would still retain the damage aspect (additional damage vs Monsters/Behemoths is a nice touch) but also impose say a -2" charge move penalty.

29) Indeed, but perhaps they could gain something like the Oldblood on Carnosaur its Blood Roar? Allowing the battallion to make a elite unit lose an additional D3 models. 

Perhaps something even better? Like giving them the Furies special rule?

Thanks for all the good work

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

16) Honestly I think it already does that Regardless of this trait, so I would just pick it

18) Wait, I thought that was only for the Paladin? The Paladin on foot is great as he is! With the chance to do mortal wounds, and buffing peasants. The Paladin on Horse on the other hand costs 100 points and is kinda mediocre. Giving him a trait (or giving him the free item as a trait, meaning that he will get a trait but cannot pick another item) would seem fair. 

26) That could work too. And that way they could retain their stakes and not lose it against the first target. Though perhaps against monster units this charge penalty could be increased to -3" ? That would seem fair and would make sense, as the stakes were mostly for keeping cavalry away. 

29) That would work too, with the effect being that they'd have to within 12" of one unit of the battalion. Though seeing as it is only one model, perhaps  the range could be shortened to 6", but the effect could stack for nearby units from the battalion?

 

And happy to help