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Bretonnia Battletome Project


henin

Unofficial Bretonnian Battletome  

249 members have voted

  1. 1. Would a full unofficial Bretonnian Battletome for AoS interest you?

    • Yes! I have something to offer for this project so i will notify you!
      16
    • Yes! I would love to see this and really hope it gets done!
      146
    • Sure, hope it happens.
      44
    • Nah, too complicated...
      7
    • No I am fine with things as they are.
      21
    • NO! DEATH TO THE LADY!
      23


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34 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

Yeah they're a relatively new addition to the Breton social dynamic. Designating them as battleline would make them appear more common and accepted within the Breton society than they really are.

But I mean knights are pretty common... having knight dismounted cant be that special... Personally I would love to see them as battleline, and I don't think its a stretch to do so!

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Hey Guys…

So, I wanted to pitch an idea for the Trebuchet.

So, if nothing is changed, from the current official one, we talked about pricing it at 180. This I think is a good price.

Now, what I wanted to suggest was adding new added feature:

 

Overcharge:

For one round, once per battle, the crew can overcharge the engine, increasing the range to 24-60 inches. When doing so, the engine is less accurate and thus receives a -1 to its to hit characteristic.

 

Adding this feature, I suggest pricing it at 200 points!

 

What do you guys think?

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Good evening,

 

We haven't been able to find more time to have more matches, but we will see if we might get some time next week. In the mean time, did you manage to find time yourself? Also, would this battletome be as detailed as the Fanmade Tomb Kings one?

Oh, and this is the spell we meant: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-orruk-weirdnob-shaman-en.pdf We would love to see a similar trait, but then where the peasants could try and pray to bolster the Damsel their magic instead. Something along the lines of them bolstering her with their faith? The Spell could also have a spellcasting of 10, and have a effect similar to the Foot of Gork (reroll after dealing the damage). However, each Peasant unit within 10" of the damsel may pray to try and bolster her spellcasting. When casting the spell, roll a dice for each Peasant unit within 10". On a roll of 3 or more the Damsel adds a +1 on her spellcasting for this spell. The Battlepilgrims may roll two dice instead of one. A Blessed Lake within 10" automatically grants her a +1 on this spell cast. However, if she fails to cast the spell the power will backfire onto her and she will suffer D3 mortal wounds. 

 

This spell could be related to the Lady of the Lake, as she tries to summon the Sons of Bretonnia: http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sons_of_Bretonnia who are the male counter part of the Damsels, who would be taken away by the Enchantress at a young age. When successfull casting the spell, they will be summoned and relentlessly wash over the enemy over and over again. If the Damsel fails however, their wrath will turn against the damsel, untold years of rage build up.

 

Thoughts?

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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In the following I have outlined my thought on this matter. I have been playing Bretonnia for a long time and was sad to see them go. This community based battletome is a great thing, but it must fill a void.

To fill that void several things needs to be present.

1) They must be competitive. This means that they have a real shot at beating any army in the game. Not always, and not by anyone, but even against Seraphon or Stormcast, they have to have a fighting chance around 50% chance of winning if played well.

2) More important they have to follow the lore. Bretonnians have some of the coolest fantasy lore of all the armies, and I think that more than anything they must follow this lore.

3) The battletome must be balanced. What I mean by that is that is has to be something that fits mechanically and strength to the other factions on average. They can have super powerful units if the others are less so and wise versa.

Now here my specific comments on my three favorite units:

King: Leoun Leoncuear is dead. Keep him that way. I think you can base the abilities off him, but you cannot use him. He exists no longer! There can still only be one King, therefore I suggest that he is still a unique character, but it cannot be Leoun in my opinion.

Based on some of the original royal items I have given him his hereditary items.

  • The Sword of Couronne was a mighty relic weapon, wielded by many heroes of Bretonnias past. This powerful weapon was forged from the finest Silverline and was quenched in the mirror pools of the Great forest. A purified weapon of The Temple of The Lady herself, The sanctified blade was steeped in righteous power. As Louen wielded this blade, it would catch the suns rays, dazzling his enemies as he charged into battle.
  • The Lion Lance was a mighty relic weapon carried by the kings of Bretonnias past, granting the wielder enhanced strength it attacked with a relentless fury.
  • The Tabard of Kings was a magnificent embroidered tabard which had been passed down through Bretonnias greatest Kings, enchanted with powerful counter spells it protected its bearer against enemy magic.
  • The Armour of Brilliance was a near impervious relic of holy might, the dazzling light from the armors polished plates making it painful for dark beings to even look upon their foe.
  • The Crown of Bretonnia shone with a golden light and was blessed by The Lady herself, enhancing the character of its wearer and inspiring those near him.

The Grail Knights: "Considered the ultimate human warrior, a Grail Knight is a successful Questing Knight who fulfilled his quest proving his valour and purity to the Lady of the Lake, only then is he allowed to drink from the holiest of artifacts, The Grail Upon this moment he becomes a Grail Knight, infused with part of the goddess's own power. These knights are among the mightiest warriors in the world, only the greatest of Blood Knights or Chaos Champions could hope to match a Grail Knight in combat. " (Warhammer wiki)

Considered the ultimate human warrior, infused with part of the goddess's own power. These knights are among the mightiest warriors in the world. So too should their stats be!

 

 

The Green Knight: It really talks for itself. See below attachment

 

I have made examples below of how I think the below three units needs to look.

Point cost for the version of the units I propose are as follows:

King: 450

Green Knight 180

5 Grail Knight 200

 

 

 

bretonnian-king.pdf

grail-knights.pdf

green-knight.pdf

Edited by Lord Bretonnia
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1 hour ago, Lord Bretonnia said:

In the following I have outlined my thought on this matter. I have been playing Bretonnia for a long time and was sad to see them go. This community based battletome is a great thing, but it must fill a void.

To fill that void several things needs to be present.

1) They must be competitive. This means that they have a real shot at beating any army in the game. Not always, and not by anyone, but even against Seraphon or Stormcast, they have to have a fighting chance around 50% chance of winning if played well.

2) More important they have to follow the lore. Bretonnians have some of the coolest fantasy lore of all the armies, and I think that more than anything they must follow this lore.

3) The battletome must be balanced. What I mean by that is that is has to be something that fits mechanically and strength to the other factions on average. They can have super powerful units if the others are less so and wise versa.

Now here my specific comments on my three favorite units:

King: Leoun Leoncuear is dead. Keep him that way. I think you can base the abilities off him, but you cannot use him. He exists no longer! There can still only be one King, therefore I suggest that he is still a unique character, but it cannot be Leoun in my opinion.

Based on some of the original royal items I have given him his hereditary items.

  • The Sword of Couronne was a mighty relic weapon, wielded by many heroes of Bretonnias past. This powerful weapon was forged from the finest Silverline and was quenched in the mirror pools of the Great forest. A purified weapon of The Temple of The Lady herself, The sanctified blade was steeped in righteous power. As Louen wielded this blade, it would catch the suns rays, dazzling his enemies as he charged into battle.
  • The Lion Lance was a mighty relic weapon carried by the kings of Bretonnias past, granting the wielder enhanced strength it attacked with a relentless fury.
  • The Tabard of Kings was a magnificent embroidered tabard which had been passed down through Bretonnias greatest Kings, enchanted with powerful counter spells it protected its bearer against enemy magic.
  • The Armour of Brilliance was a near impervious relic of holy might, the dazzling light from the armors polished plates making it painful for dark beings to even look upon their foe.
  • The Crown of Bretonnia shone with a golden light and was blessed by The Lady herself, enhancing the character of its wearer and inspiring those near him.

The Grail Knights: "Considered the ultimate human warrior, a Grail Knight is a successful Questing Knight who fulfilled his quest proving his valour and purity to the Lady of the Lake, only then is he allowed to drink from the holiest of artifacts, The Grail Upon this moment he becomes a Grail Knight, infused with part of the goddess's own power. These knights are among the mightiest warriors in the world, only the greatest of Blood Knights or Chaos Champions could hope to match a Grail Knight in combat. " (Warhammer wiki)

Considered the ultimate human warrior, infused with part of the goddess's own power. These knights are among the mightiest warriors in the world. So too should their stats be!

 

 

The Green Knight: It really talks for itself. See below attachment

 

I have made examples below of how I think the below three units needs to look.

Point cost for the version of the units I propose are as follows:

King: 450

Green Knight 180

5 Grail Knight 200

 

 

 

bretonnian-king.pdf

grail-knights.pdf

green-knight.pdf

I really like those changes :) The Bretonnian king is really expensive, but if the Peasant Bowmen (100 points, gains the improved Stake ability) and Pegasus Knights (160 points, -1 Rend on their lance attacks) could be improved as we described, it should still leave enough points for a decent enough army. 

 

The Green Knight Summoned from the Mists ability seems like a great idea! And I like all the other changes they have as well.


As for the Grail Knights, I agree with making one of the models a commander, and giving them a +1 damage characteristic against DEATH or DAEMON units.  I think that for my previous ideas CHAOS should be replaced with DAEMON as well.

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I think this is a great Idea. Sorry for being late to the discussion.  I think it would be a great time the mould the lore to fit AOS. I just love the aesthetic of the charge of knights with flowing banners. I thing the idea of Vows and oaths being a way of gain power from your leaders would be a run dynamic for the army. I like the idea of a powerful lord/wizard granting his troops a portion of his power and regaining it as his men die. Your hero starting the game comparatively week but becoming more powerful as the game goes on. It would give your opponent an interesting tactical problem. 

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I just wanted to say, that although I have tried to make them competitive, I have taking my point of departure on abilities and stats on older editions and the lore of Bretonnia... Which I think is the best way to go about it. So when the lore says "Best knight in the world" well that means they have to have the best cavalry unit in the game! Well within reason of course, but basically it means at least 50/50 against the most powerful cavalry unit in the game.

After rereading the alpha draft, I have to say that I'm not a fan of the Token system. I think its another layer to complicate the game. I would rather that the base units were a bit more capable and then simplified.

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Actually I have been thinking about that as well, and while the Token system does sound nice, perhaps I could propose an alternative? Just see what you think about it :)

1) Protection of the Spirits: If we take the Tomb King fanmade similar trait, we find that they give that effect within 10" which is only fair. If we lower the range to 6", then we could put some power into another aspect of that trait. How about this:

All BRETON units may ignore wounds and mortal wounds on a dice roll of 6 or higher in the shooting phase. If the Breton unit is within 6" of a BRETON HERO  it may gain this effect for all phases and not merely the shooting phase. A BRETON unit within 6" of a DAMSEL may re-roll failed Protection of the Spirits dice.

2) The Lady Wills it! stays the same.

3) The Lady's Favour: The Lady's favour protects both its Peasantry and Nobility, granting different effects to both as long as your army is graced with a DAMSEL hero. Peasantry units may roll two dice during a battleshock, and pick the lowest value. Nobility units may both Retreat and Charge in the same turn. If you no Longer have a DAMSEL within your army, then your units may only benefit from these boons if they are within 6" of your General. 

4) Command Traits: The Virtue of Favor now instead gives all BRETON units within 6" of your General a +1 on their Protection of the Spirits rolls (maybe now called Virtue of Protection). And the Virtue of Duty's range is increased to 9"

 

If the Peasant Bowmen and the Woodsmen could gain the proposed boons, it would allow for an army that is very reliant on being well rounded. Meaning that there will be less cheese strategies, and you only get the most out of these boons if you can make the sons and daughters of Bretonnia work together.

 

Also it would be a nice theme if that proposed Spell for Damsels that summons the Sons of Bretonnia could have a higher chance of succeeding thanks to the Peasants, while the Peasants (and the Nobility) could benefit in a similar manner from the Damsels. It would also fit the noblity Knights and Damsels theme :) (the airforce would need to be reworked a little bit though).

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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So I showed this latest version to my friends tonight, and we wanted to update our ideas and add the ideas that we had seen here :) We will try and play it tomorrow for one match, and probably later as well. But here are our change ideas: 

 

1) Protection of the Spirits: All BRETON units may ignore wounds and mortal wounds on a dice roll of 6 or higher in the shooting phase. If the Breton unit is within 6" of a BRETON HERO  it may gain this effect for all phases and not merely the shooting phase. A BRETON unit within 6" of a DAMSEL may re-roll failed Protection of the Spirits dice.

2) The Lady's Favour: The Lady's favour protects both its Peasantry and Nobility, granting different effects to both as long as your army is graced with a DAMSEL hero. Peasantry units may roll two dice during a battleshock, and pick the lowest value. Mounted Nobility units may both Retreat and Charge in the same turn. If you no Longer have a DAMSEL within your army, then your units may only benefit from these boons if they are within 6" of your General. 

3) Virtue of Favour: The Virtue of Favor now instead gives all BRETON units within 6" of your General a +1 on their Protection of the Spirits rolls. 

4) Virtue of Duty: The range of the command trait increases to 9" similar to the Free Guild people. 

5) Remove Exceptional steeds: This only makes it more complicated, and it's strength has been added to the new Lady's Favour. 

6) Lore of the Lady: We looked at the Lore of the Lady, and while we liked the idea behind them, we felt that some of their casting values were a little bit too high. Reducing the casting value of some spells would seem fair, especially considering that Bretonnia has no effects (except for the Sons of Bretonnia spell) that increase the casting values of your spells, they only allow you to reroll them:

The casting value of Fair Tailwind could become 4+, and for Revivify 8+. Nature's Wrath can stay the same if it also includes our idea (see below).

7) Fair Tailwind: We would suggest to make it so that the unit can move in any direction, not just away from the spell caster. The distance also becomes D6 instead, and if the unit is mounted then it may add +1 to this dice roll. Flying units may move double this amount. Also for clarification, add the following text: "The friendly unit may not be placed closer then 1/2" to a enemy model. Moving them in this manner will not count as its movement, as it has not moved on its own". That way flying units like Pegasi can make the most out of this, as they could potentially be moved over enemy units they are in combat with, and charge again in the same turn.

8) Entanglement: We liked the idea behind it, but I would add that the halved values would be rounded down. This would be fair for a 6+ casting value spell, as there is still a chance that the enemy might reach it's target (unless you roll a 10+, for which you should be rewarded).

9) Nature's Wrath: We like the idea behind it, but we feel that it is lacking a bit. We wanted to also add the "Dwellers below" effect in addition to it's current effect, as in that any enemy model within 3" of the terrain (unless it's a monster unit) must roll a dice. On a 6 or more they suffer 1 mortal wound. If these models have the DEATH or DAEMON keywords then you may add +1 on these dice rolls.

Seeing as this is a 7+ spell which only works on enemy units near terrain (meaning that they can easily avoid it) this would be a more then fair compensation for this. 

10) Remove the spell Strengthen Spririts, and replace it with Sons of Bretonnia: This spell will be based on the Sons of Bretonnia: http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sons_of_Bretonnia which are the male counterparts of the Damsels. The Damsels can attempt to summon them, but their pent up rage can be hard to control. Nearby Peasant units may attempt to aid the Damsel during the spell, by praying to the Lady of the Lady, and strengthening the Damsels magic with their faith.

Sons of Bretonnia has a casting value of 10+ to cast. When casting the spell, roll a dice for each PEASANTRY unit within 10" of the Damsel. On a roll of 3 or more the Damsel adds a +1 on her spellcasting for this spell. Mounted Squires and Battlepilgrims allow you to roll two dice instead of one. A Blessed Lake within 10" automatically grants her a +1 on this spell cast. However, if she fails to cast the spell the power will backfire onto her and she will suffer D3 mortal wounds. If successfully cast, inflict D6 mortal wounds on a unit within 18". Then roll a dice - on a 4 or more the Sons of Bretonnia will relentlessly continue their assault. Resolve another D6 wounds on a eligible unit. The Sons of Bretonnia keep on their assaults until you fail to roll a 4 or more. 

11) Artifacts of Legends: We felt that the Paladin with Standard was a bit underpowered for it's cost, and as such we wanted to add the following changes to the Artifacts of Legends item list: "NOBLITY HERO units with the TOTEM keyword provide your army with a free Magical Standard item each, but it may and must only be equipped to them." 

This is in addition to the standard item you gain, as well as the items you gain for each battalion that you field. This would also be fair, as the 100 point cost Paladin with Standard is really weak without it, and by giving him this standard he can no longer be improved with other items. Think of it as giving them one of 3 abilities, at the expense of not being able to wield other items. 

12) Shield of the Lady: The text is changed in the following way: "Add 1 to this models save rolls. In addition, this model may add 1 to it's Protection of the Spirits roll in the shooting phase."

13) Sirienne's Locket: we wanted to add the following text after it: "If the attack has a damage characteristic of 1 and "-" rend, then for each wound suffered you may roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more the wound is negated."

14) Prayer Icon of Quenelles: While we like the originality, we feel that it is not worth an item. As such we instead wanted to remove this effect, and give it a previous item effects which you removed:

"The Damsel may cast one additional spell per turn". 

15) Twilight Banner: We wanted to add the following text after its current text: "If the friendly BRETON unit can already fly, then add +1 to its run and charge rolls instead". 

16) Mounted Squires: Give Mounted Squires the Peasantry Keywords, as they are basically Peasants trying to attain Knighthood (This way they will not benefit from the Retreat and Charge from the Lady's Blessing, but they can aid the Lady with casting the Sons of Bretonnia spell). In addition  the Mounted Squires their save will be 4+ instead of the current 5+ (They do cost 80 points per 5 models after all, and this would seem fair when compared to other units). 

17) Foot Knights: We think that Foot Knights should gain the Nobility Keyword as well.

18) Peasant bowmen: My friend is a competetive Free People's player, and often deploys Crossbow men who cost 100 points, and who can fire twice in their turn with a 4+ to hit and wound as long as no enemy is within 3" and they didn't move. It also has a ability that allows all its models to fire upon a enemy unit that has charged it as an interrupt, as well as a ability that allows some of their attacks to have -1 rend. Seeing as the Peasant Bowmen are supposed to be the best battleline archers around, he felt that their price could be reduced to 100 point (and a 40 model horde could cost 360 points) while also buffing them a little bit. These were his suggestions:

Stakes: "Once per battle the Peasant bowmen unit can set up Stakes in the Hero phase. Any enemy unit that finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit must roll a dice. On a 1 nothing happens, on a 2 or 3 the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds, and on a 4 or higher the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds and its models will be pushed back 31/2" and may not pile in. The protection of the stakes is lost if the Peasant bowmen unit moves or is attacked in the combat phase."

Burning Braziers: Add the following text in front of the Burning Braziers text: "Once per battle the Peasant bowmen unit can set up Burning Braziers in the Hero phase."

19) Woodsmen: We like the concept of these guys, but when compared to for instance the Chameleon Skinks they are a bit lacking. We were thinking about giving their Woodman's bows a -1 rend. In addition, add the following text to Ambush: "If the model is placed within terrain then it suffers none of these restrictions, and may be placed in the first turn on any terrain".  And change the text of Surefooted Stalkers as following: "If a model from this unit would be slain while on terrain, roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more, the model deftly avoids harm and is not slain."

(The -1 rend feels fair as the Chameleon Skinks have 10 attacks for 120 points, with 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound. And the change to Ambush would give you the same flexibility of the Chameleon Skinks, however only provided you put them on terrain. With all these restrictions, and the greater cost, changing the Surefooted Stalkers trait to avoid being slain on a 4+ for all effects did seem more then fair to us. Meaning that your Woodsmen will be more restricted then the Chameleon Skinks, but if you put them in terrain they will be a bit more durable). 

20) Brothers of the Round: My friends and I felt that some of the Battalions could receive some love. The Brothers of the Round battalion reminded him of a Free People's one, and he recommended adding the following text after the second Ability text: "If the unit contains any Standard Bearers, then none of its units flee on a roll of 1 or 2. 

21) Seeing as you need FIRESLAYER units for the Order of the Burning Lance, I think it's important to add the Fireslayers as potential allies. 

22) When comparing the Field Trebuchet with the Canon, I feel that 180 points would be more then fair as they are very similar. With each having advantages over the other. 

23) For the SAGE'S ORDER, change the allies to COLLEGIATE ARCANE, and exchange the Swordmasters for Foot Knights. In addition, we were thinking about changing the text as following:

*All units in the Sage's Order may re-roll hit rolls of 1 if they are within 10" of a COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD. If they already have this effect, then they may reroll all failed hit rolls.

*Friendly COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD units add +1 to their casting rolls if they are within 10" of a unit from the Sage's Order. In addition, the COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD from the Sage's Order gains the BRETON and NOBILITY keywords and can temper with the fates. Once per phase you can increase or decrease the result of a single dice roll for this unit  by one.

In addition the battalions cost could be decreased to 120 points, as the second trait mostly only affects the Sage’s Order Wizard. 

24) Royal Airforce: The first ability also gives your Pegasus Knights their lances a -1 Rend. In addition, remove the current second ability and give the battalion the Stealthy Advance and Strike from the Skies abilities from the SHADOWSTRIKE STARHOST for all units under the battalion. The former lets its units advance 2D6 at the end of the Set-up Phase. The latter allows them to be placed outside the board in the set up, and then placed anywhere on the map but 3+ away from enemy models in any of your movement phases, and you may then add +1 on wound rolls for these units in their next combat phase. With this the point cost could remain 160 points, as that would be fair for their new abilities.

25) Perhaps the Ragged Brotherhood could be reduced to 120 points, and the Peasant Militia to 80 points? Looking at what you gain for their cost this did seem like a fair cost reduction to us. 

26) The Examplar Order: We liked how it had a restriction, but at the very least we feel that for 120 points it should have another trait. As such we were thinking about adding the following second text: "All units from the Examplar Order may add +1 on their hit rolls if they are within 10" of a NOBILITY HERO and they made a Charge move this turn. 

27) The Black Order: We feel that for 100 points he should have another ability trait, and as such we were thinking about adding the following second trait: "Enemy units within 8"must always make a battleshock test, and must ignore effects that would otherwise prevent them from doing so. In addition, if your opponent makes a battleshock test for these units roll a dice. If the result is higher than the result of your opponent's dice, D3 additional models flee from the unit (as well as any that flee because of the test).

28) I agree that King Leon Leoncoeur should instead be made into a Generic King like Lord Bretonnia suggested. Also I think his version of the Bretonnian King would be more then fair for its point cost, creating a really powerful lord (which we need, as Bretonnia has no other monster units) if you want to go for a more elite approach. Same with the Fey Enchantress, as I feel that she can also be a generic lord known as Enchantress again. 

The only Lord I think that should be a named character is the Green Knight. We could make the story that King Leon Leoncoeur and the Fey Enchantress have dissapeared. Presumably dead, but his descendants have survived. Rumors being that the Lady of the Lake sired the first descendant of King Leon Leoncoeur's bloodline, as she was madly in love with him. This would also be fair, as his version of the Green Knight is strong (yet for 180 points fair), so he has no need for an additional item or Commant traits.

The King could be named: King on Hippogryph. Like in the current Bretonnian Battletome.

We talked it over, and we agreed that Lord Bretonnia his new Warscrolls and point cost for those units are spot on, so we wanted to include that as well. 

 

13 hours ago, Lord Bretonnia said:

I have made examples below of how I think the below three units needs to look.

Point cost for the version of the units I propose are as follows:

King: 450

Green Knight 180

5 Grail Knight 200

 

 

 

bretonnian-king.pdf

grail-knights.pdf

green-knight.pdf

 

However, alternatively I would give a 24” range to the King’s Crown of Bretonnia and King of the Realm. This in exchange for 13 wounds, and making the King a named character for 380 points. 

This hero could be named King Leoncouer, and he could be a descendant from a King Leon Leoncour. 

29) We loved the idea of adding the Demigryph Knights to the Bretonnian roster, but how about you also add a Breton version of the General of Griffon? You could use the concept of the Freeguild General on Griffon https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-freeguild-general-griffon-en.pdf while replacing some keywords for the unit and its abilities, and also giving the Charging Lance a +1 on wound rolls if the model charged this turn. That way he could be a cheaper alternative (260 points like the standard General on Griffon) to the Bretonnian King. Also this would give Bretonnia a much needed Monster unit. This NOBILITY HERO could be called a ARCHDUKE ON GRIFFON, giving you more options to choose from. 

30) Pegasus Knights: Their cost could be reduced to 160 points, while their current Warscroll remains the same

31) The Order of the Burning Lance: Change the first text as following: "All units from the Order of the Burning Lance add one to their charge rolls. In addition, all of their non-mount attacks deal 1 additional Mortal Wound on a wound roll on a wound roll of 6 or more, provided they charged in the same turn."

32) The Order of Chasseurs: We were thinking about making the requirement 1-3 Knight Errant units. In addition we wanted to add the following text at the end of the second text: "In addition the Knight Errant units from this battalion gain the Questing Vow ability from the Questing Knights. Provided they are within 10" of a Questing knights unit."

33) Defenders of the Realm: We felt that the Defenders of the Realm was a bit lacking, therefor we wanted to add the following lines at the end of the second text: "In addition, the charging units may both retreat and charge in the following turn. During this retreat HERO units may move over enemy models as if they could fly.  

 

----

 

We talked it over, and we think that this may be just what Bretonnia needs :) If the rest of the Battletome stays the same, aside from these changes, then it would be above average to good, but at the same time also able to compete with various high tier armies due to it's access to different and exiting tools! 

 

We will try out this altered battletome as soon as we can, and let you guys know how that went :)

 

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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38 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

So I showed this latest version to my friends last night, and we wanted to update our ideas and add the ideas that we had seen here :) We will try and play it tomorrow for one match, and probably later as well. But here are our change ideas: 

 

1) Protection of the Spirits: All BRETON units may ignore wounds and mortal wounds on a dice roll of 6 or higher in the shooting phase. If the Breton unit is within 6" of a BRETON HERO  it may gain this effect for all phases and not merely the shooting phase. A BRETON unit within 6" of a DAMSEL may re-roll failed Protection of the Spirits dice.

2) The Lady's Favour: The Lady's favour protects both its Peasantry and Nobility, granting different effects to both as long as your army is graced with a DAMSEL hero. Peasantry units may roll two dice during a battleshock, and pick the lowest value. Mounted Nobility units may both Retreat and Charge in the same turn. If you no Longer have a DAMSEL within your army, then your units may only benefit from these boons if they are within 6" of your General. 

3) Virtue of Favour: The Virtue of Favor now instead gives all BRETON units within 6" of your General a +1 on their Protection of the Spirits rolls (maybe now called Virtue of Protection). 

4) Virtue of Duty: The range of the command trait increases to 9" similar to the Free Guild people. 

5) Remove Exceptional steeds: This only makes it more complicated, and it's strength has been added to the new Lady's Favour. 

6) Lore of the Lady: We looked at the Lore of the Lady, and while we liked the idea behind them, we felt that some of their casting values were a little bit too high. Reducing the casting value of some spells would seem fair, especially considering that Bretonnia has no effects (except for the Sons of Bretonnia spell) that increase the casting values of your spells, they only allow you to reroll them:

The casting value of Fair Tailwind could become 4+, and for Revivify 8+. Nature's Wrath can stay the same if it also includes our idea (see below).

7) Fair Tailwind: We would suggest to make it so that the unit can move in any direction, not just away from the spell caster. The distance also becomes D6 instead, and if the unit is mounted then it may add +1 to this dice roll. Flying units may move double this amount. Also for clarification, add the following text: "The friendly unit may not be placed closer then 1/2" to a enemy model. Moving them in this manner will not count as its movement, as it has not moved on its own". That way flying units like Pegasi can make the most out of this, as they could potentially be moved over enemy units they are in combat with, and charge again in the same turn.

8) Entanglement: We liked the idea behind it, but I would add that the halved values would be rounded down. This would be fair for a 6+ casting value spell, as there is still a chance that the enemy might reach it's target (unless you roll a 10+, for which you should be rewarded).

9) Nature's Wrath: We like the idea behind it, but we feel that it is lacking a bit. We wanted to also add the "Dwellers below" effect in addition to it's current effect, as in that any enemy model within 3" of the terrain (unless it's a monster unit) must roll a dice. On a 6 or more they suffer 1 mortal wound. Seeing as this is a 7+ spell which only works on enemy units near terrain (meaning that they can easily avoid it) this would be a more then fair compensation for this. 

10) Remove the spell Strengthen Spririts, and replace it with Sons of Bretonnia: This spell will be based on the Sons of Bretonnia: http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sons_of_Bretonnia which are the male counterparts of the Damsels. The Damsels can attempt to summon them, but their pent up rage can be hard to control. Nearby Peasant units may attempt to aid the Damsel during the spell, by praying to the Lady of the Lady, and strengthening the Damsels magic with their faith.

Sons of Bretonnia has a casting value of 10+ to cast. When casting the spell, roll a dice for each PEASANTRY unit within 10" of the Damsel. On a roll of 3 or more the Damsel adds a +1 on her spellcasting for this spell. Mounted Squires and Battlepilgrims allow you to roll two dice instead of one. A Blessed Lake within 10" automatically grants her a +1 on this spell cast. However, if she fails to cast the spell the power will backfire onto her and she will suffer D3 mortal wounds. If successfully cast, inflict D6 mortal wounds on a unit within 18". Then roll a dice - on a 4 or more the Sons of Bretonnia will relentlessly continue their assault. Resolve another D6 wounds on a eligible unit. The Sons of Bretonnia keep on their assaults until you fail to roll a 4 or more. 

11) Artifacts of Legends: We felt that the Paladin with Standard was a bit underpowered for it's cost, and as such we wanted to add the following changes to the Artifacts of Legends item list: "NOBLITY HERO units with the TOTEM keyword provide your army with a free Magical Standard item each, but it may and must only be equipped to them." 

This is in addition to the standard item you gain, as well as the items you gain for each battalion that you field. This would also be fair, as the 100 point cost Paladin with Standard is really weak without it, and by giving him this standard he can no longer be improved with other items. Think of it as giving them one of 3 abilities, at the expense of not being able to wield other items. 

12) Shield of the Lady: The text is changed in the following way: "Add 1 to this models save rolls. In addition, this model may add 1 to it's Protection of the Spirits roll in the shooting phase."

13) Sirienne's Locket: we wanted to add the following text after it: "If the attack has a damage characteristic of 1 and "-" rend, then for each wound suffered you may roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more the wound is negated."

14) Prayer Icon of Quenelles: While we like the originality, we feel that it is not worth an item. As such we instead wanted to remove this effect, and give it a previous item effects which you removed:

"The Damsel may cast one additional spell per turn". 

15) Twilight Banner: We wanted to add the following text after its current text: "If the friendly BRETON unit can already fly, then add +1 to its run and charge rolls instead". 

16) Mounted Squires: Give Mounted Squires the Peasantry Keywords, as they are basically Peasants trying to attain Knighthood (This way they will not benefit from the Retreat and Charge from the Lady's Blessing, but they can aid the Lady with casting the Sons of Bretonnia spell). In addition  the Mounted Squires their save will be 4+ instead of the current 5+ (They do cost 80 points per 5 models after all, and this would seem fair when compared to other units). 

17) Foot Knights: We think that Foot Knights should gain the Nobility Keyword as well.

18) Peasant bowmen: My friend is a competetive Free People's player, and often deploys Crossbow men who cost 100 points, and who can fire twice in their turn with a 4+ to hit and wound as long as no enemy is within 3" and they didn't move. It also has a ability that allows all its models to fire upon a enemy unit that has charged it as an interrupt, as well as a ability that allows some of their attacks to have -1 rend. Seeing as the Peasant Bowmen are supposed to be the best battleline archers around, he felt that their price could be reduced to 100 point (and a 40 model horde could cost 360 points) while also buffing them a little bit. These were his suggestions:

Stakes: "Once per battle the Peasant bowmen unit can set up Stakes in the Hero phase. Any enemy unit that finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit must roll a dice. On a 1 nothing happens, on a 2 or 3 the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds, and on a 4 or higher the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds and its models will be pushed back 31/2" and may not pile in. The protection of the stakes is lost if the Peasant bowmen unit moves or is attacked in the combat phase."

Burning Braziers: Add the following text in front of the Burning Braziers text: "Once per battle the Peasant bowmen unit can set up Burning Braziers in the Hero phase."

19) Woodsmen: We like the concept of these guys, but when compared to for instance the Chameleon Skinks they are a bit lacking. We were thinking about giving their Woodman's bows a -1 rend. In addition, add the following text to Ambush: "If the model is placed within terrain then it suffers none of these restrictions, and may be placed in the first turn on any terrain".  And change the text of Surefooted Stalkers as following: "If a model from this unit would be slain while on terrain, roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more, the model deftly avoids harm and is not slain."

(The -1 rend feels fair as the Chameleon Skinks have 10 attacks for 120 points, with 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound. And the change to Ambush would give you the same flexibility of the Chameleon Skinks, however only provided you put them on terrain. With all these restrictions, and the greater cost, changing the Surefooted Stalkers trait to avoid being slain on a 4+ for all effects did seem more then fair to us. Meaning that your Woodsmen will be more restricted then the Chameleon Skinks, but if you put them in terrain they will be a bit more durable). 

20) Brothers of the Round: My friends and I felt that some of the Battalions could receive some love. The Brothers of the Round battalion reminded him of a Free People's one, and he recommended adding the following text after the second Ability text: "If the unit contains any Standard Bearers, then none of its units flee on a roll of 1 or 2. 

21) Seeing as you need FIRESLAYER units for the Order of the Burning Lance, I think it's important to add the Fireslayers as potential allies. 

22) When comparing the Field Trebuchet with the Canon, I feel that 180 points would be more then fair as they are very similar. With each having advantages over the other. 

23) For the SAGE'S ORDER, don't you mean COLLEGIATE ARCANE, as this is one of their allies? However, if not then perhaps then the Swordmasters could be changed to a different unit? And the battalion could be reworked a bit? I think that units like the Celestial Hurricanum and the Battlemage on Griphon would be really fitting allies to the Bretonnians. In addition to changing the unit of Swordmasters requirement (this could be Foot Knights instead), we were thinking about changing the text as following:

*All units in the Sage's Order may re-roll hit rolls of 1 if they are within 10" of a COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD. If they already have this effect, then they may reroll all failed hit rolls.

*Friendly COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD units add +1 to their casting rolls if they are within 10" of a unit from the Sage's Order. In addition, the COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD from the Sage's Order gains the BRETON and NOBILITY keywords and can temper with the fates. Once per phase you can increase or decrease the result of a single dice roll for this unit  by one.

In addition the battalions cost could be decreased to 120 points, as the second trait mostly only affects the Sage’s Order Wizard. 

24) Royal Airforce: The first ability also gives your Pegasus Knights their lances a -1 Rend. In addition, remove the current second ability and give the battalion the Stealthy Advance and Strike from the Skies abilities from the SHADOWSTRIKE STARHOST for all units under the battalion. The former lets its units advance 2D6 at the end of the Set-up Phase. The latter allows them to be placed outside the board in the set up, and then placed anywhere on the map but 3+ away from enemy models in any of your movement phases, and you may then add +1 on wound rolls for these units in their next combat phase. With this the point cost could remain 160 points, as that would be fair for their new abilities.

25) Perhaps the Ragged Brotherhood could be reduced to 120 points, and the Peasant Militia to 80 points? Looking at what you gain for their cost this did seem like a fair cost reduction to us. 

26) The Examplar Order: We liked how it had a restriction, but at the very least we feel that for 120 points it should have another trait. As such we were thinking about adding the following second text: "All units from the Examplar Order may add +1 on their hit rolls if they are within 10" of a NOBILITY HERO and they made a Charge move this turn. 

27) The Black Order: We feel that for 100 points he should have another ability trait, and as such we were thinking about adding the following second trait: "Enemy units within 8"must always make a battleshock test, and must ignore effects that would otherwise prevent them from doing so. In addition, if your opponent makes a battleshock test for these units roll a dice. If the result is higher than the result of your opponent's dice, D3 additional models flee from the unit (as well as any that flee because of the test).

28) I agree that King Leon Leoncoeur should instead be made into a Generic King like Lord Bretonnia suggested. Also I think his version of the Bretonnian King would be more then fair for its point cost, creating a really powerful lord (which we need, as Bretonnia has no other monster units) if you want to go for a more elite approach. Same with the Fey Enchantress, as I feel that she can also be a generic lord known as Enchantress again. 

The only Lord I think that should be a named character is the Green Knight. We could make the story that King Leon Leoncoeur and the Fey Enchantress have dissapeared. Presumably dead, but his descendants have survived. Rumors being that the Lady of the Lake sired the first descendant of King Leon Leoncoeur's bloodline, as she was madly in love with him. This would also be fair, as his version of the Green Knight is strong (yet for 180 points fair), so he has no need for an additional item or Commant traits.

We talked it over, and we agreed that Lord Bretonnia his new Warscrolls and point cost for those units are spot on, so we wanted to include that as well. 

 

 

29) We loved the idea of adding the Demigryph Knights to the Bretonnian roster, but how about you also add a Breton version of the General of Griffon? You could use the concept of the Freeguild General on Griffon https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-freeguild-general-griffon-en.pdf while replacing some keywords for the unit and its abilities, and also giving the Charging Lance a +1 on wound rolls if the model charged this turn. That way he could be a cheaper alternative (260 points like the standard General on Griffon) to King Louen Leoncoeur, who would lack many of the King's Utilities, but in exchange would be better in combat. Also this would give Bretonnia a much needed Monster unit. This NOBILITY HERO could be called a ARCHDUKE ON GRIFFON, giving you more options to choose from. 

30) Pegasus Knights: Their cost could be reduced to 160 points, while their current Warscroll remains the same

31) The Order of the Burning Lance: Change the first text as following: "All units from the Order of the Burning Lance add one to their charge rolls. In addition, all of their non-mount attacks deal 1 additional Mortal Wound on a wound roll on a wound roll of 6 or more, provided they charged in the same turn."

32) The Order of Chasseurs: We were thinking about making the requirement 1-3 Knight Errant units. In addition we wanted to add the following text at the end of the second text: "In addition the Knight Errant units from this battalion gain the Questing Vow ability from the Questing Knights. Provided they are within 10" of a Questing knights unit."

33) Defenders of the Realm: We felt that the Defenders of the Realm was a bit lacking, therefor we wanted to add the following lines at the end of the second text: "In addition, provided the charging unit has slain at least 1 model, it may both retreat and charge in the following turn and move over units as if it could fly. They must and may end this special retreat more then 1/2" away from enemy models. 

 

----

 

We talked it over, and we think that this may be just what Bretonnia needs :) If the rest of the Battletome stays the same, aside from these changes, then it would be above average to good, but at the same time also able to compete with various high tier armies due to it's access to different and exiting tools! 

 

We will try out this altered battletome as soon as we can, and let you guys know how that went :)

 

I wanted to ask you how powerful the Tokes system is? The more I think about it, the less I like it. I would rather have the abilities granted by tokens, be spells for the damsel and Enchantress to choose from!

But what is your take from testing the tokens in game???

 

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Heya,

1 hour ago, Lord Bretonnia said:

Hi.... I'm glad you liked the King...

What do you think about the Green Knight and the Grail Knights?

 

 

Well we think the Green Knight like you suggested (provided it remains a named character) would be a great unit, and fair for 180 points. If it remains the only named character for Bretonnia then that would make sense lorewise, and also not make it too powerful as it cannot gain items. So we think it’s pretty good!

Grail Knights do sound great. I was first thinking about 180 points, but if we add that bonus against DAEMON and DEATH units as well as my The Lady's Favour idea then 200 points does sound fair.

 

1 hour ago, Melcar said:

I wanted to ask you how powerful the Tokes system is? The more I think about it, the less I like it. I would rather have the abilities granted by tokens, be spells for the damsel and Enchantress to choose from!

But what is your take from testing the tokens in game???

 

 

We tested the Tokens in the game, and we quite liked them! However, they also made the gameplay longer, and honestly we only ever used them for the Retreat and Charge in the same turn, as the other options were often already integrated in several units. 

 

As such we wanted to propose this version of The Lady's Favour instead (could be renamed The Lady's Blessing). You won't be able to use the Retreat and Charge on the cheaper Mounted Yeomen anymore, or reroll hit and wound rolls if you so desire, so it will be less flexible. But it should make the gameplay less complicated and more smoothly.  As such we wanted to try it out, and we balanced it in that it requires you to keep your DAMSEL units save if you want to benefit from this Allegiance trait (otherwise only your Breton units within 6" of your General may benefit from these boons). 

Edited by Nielspeterdejong
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Also I quickly made some change to the Nature's Wrath spell. We found that the requirement to be near terrain was a huge liability. And as such we feel that it would be fair to punish those that knowingly come near it when you have this spell. We've added the "Dwellers below" effect, but also allow you to add a +1 on the dice rolls if the enemy unit has the DAEMON or DEATH keywords.

This may seem strong, but keep in mind that this is only for each model within 3" of the target terrain, not all models within a unit like the regular Dwellers Below. 

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1 hour ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Heya,

Well we think the Green Knight like you suggested (provided it remains a named character) would be a great unit, and fair for 180 points. If it remains the only named character for Bretonnia then that would make sense lorewise, and also not make it too powerful as it cannot gain items. So we think it’s pretty good!

Grail Knights do sound great. I was first thinking about 180 points, but if we add that bonus against DAEMON and DEATH units as well as my The Lady's Favour idea then 200 points does sound fair.

 

 

We tested the Tokens in the game, and we quite liked them! However, they also made the gameplay longer, and honestly we only ever used them for the Retreat and Charge in the same turn, as the other options were often already integrated in several units. 

 

As such we wanted to propose this version of The Lady's Favour instead (could be renamed The Lady's Blessing). You won't be able to use the Retreat and Charge on the cheaper Mounted Yeomen anymore, or reroll hit and wound rolls if you so desire, so it will be less flexible. But it should make the gameplay less complicated and more smoothly.  As such we wanted to try it out, and we balanced it in that it requires you to keep your DAMSEL units save if you want to benefit from this Allegiance trait (otherwise only your Breton units within 6" of your General may benefit from these boons). 

I want to stress that since there can only be one King of Bretonnia, I think the King, whatever his name should be Unique, I just don't think it should be Leoun. The model I suggest carries a wide variety of powerful items, so its fair that he does not have access to more. However a command trait would be nice! The point is that you can only have one king and thus automatically in my mind must be a unique character...

I actually think my Grail Knights are pretty good and priced correctly too. Was your The Lady's Favour a command trait, or was it an ability you would give the Grail knight? I kind of was lost on that? Since the Green knight lore wise is a unique character so too MUST he be in the game too. Glad we agree!

I'm interested in hearing how much difference you felt he Favor Tokens did... because I'm pretty sure it will complicate stuff more than necessary. Could we not just have them as spells?

 

Edited by Lord Bretonnia
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1 hour ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

We tested the Tokens in the game, and we quite liked them! However, they also made the gameplay longer, and honestly we only ever used them for the Retreat and Charge in the same turn, as the other options were often already integrated in several units. 

As such we wanted to propose this version of The Lady's Favour instead (could be renamed The Lady's Blessing). You won't be able to use the Retreat and Charge on the cheaper Mounted Yeomen anymore, or reroll hit and wound rolls if you so desire, so it will be less flexible. But it should make the gameplay less complicated and more smoothly.  As such we wanted to try it out, and we balanced it in that it requires you to keep your DAMSEL units save if you want to benefit from this Allegiance trait (otherwise only your Breton units within 6" of your General may benefit from these boons). 

Did you have time to think on my suggestion for the Trebuchet?

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13 minutes ago, Lord Bretonnia said:

I want to stress that since there can only be one King of Bretonnia, I think the King, whatever his name should be Unique, I just don't think it should be Leoun. The model I suggest carries a wide variety of powerful items, so its fair that he does not have access to more. However a command trait would be nice! The point is that you can only have one king and thus automatically in my mind must be a unique character...

I actually think my Grail Knights are pretty good and priced correctly too. Was your The Lady's Favour a command trait, or was it an ability you would give the Grail knight? I kind of was lost on that? Since the Green knight lore wise is a unique character so too MUST he be in the game too. Glad we agree!

I'm interested in hearing how much difference you felt he Favor Tokens did... because I'm pretty sure it will complicate stuff more than necessary. Could we not just have them as spells?

 

Well I agree that he is powerful, but he costs the same as Lord Kroak who can deal D3 mortal wounds to 3 units per turn anywhere on the battlefield as well as 3 other spells. As such making him generic isn’t that far off.

many armies have only one named Lord, and as such I found it fitting lore wise that that would be the Green Knight.

 

otherwise I think we should keep the King Louen, and state that he became immortal by becoming the Lady’s consort. 

 

And I was referring to the alternative Lady’s Favour trait, which no longer uses Tokens. This is one of the Allegiance traits. 

 

And that is why I suggested replacing the tokens with the new system that gives your Peasantry better rolls vs battleshock, and allows your Knights to both retreat and charge in the same turn. Basically giving you cycle charges.  

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4 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Well we like the idea, but we fear it might make things too complicated. We think it would be more efficient to just reduce the price to that of the canon: 180 points.

Right... I suggested that as well. I think they will keep the warscroll as is, but simply price it at 180. I think that would be great and a much fairer price!

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17 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Well I agree that he is powerful, but he costs the same as Lord Kroak who can deal D3 mortal wounds to 3 units per turn anywhere on the battlefield as well as 3 other spells. As such making him generic isn’t that far off.

many armies have only one named Lord, and as such I found it fitting lore wise that that would be the Green Knight.

 

otherwise I think we should keep the King Louen, and state that he became immortal by becoming the Lady’s consort. 

 

And I was referring to the alternative Lady’s Favour trait, which no longer uses Tokens. This is one of the Allegiance traits. 

 

And that is why I suggested replacing the tokens with the new system that gives your Peasantry better rolls vs battleshock, and allows your Knights to both retreat and charge in the same turn. Basically giving you cycle charges.  

I personally think he could very well take Kroak.

The thing is, if you read what constitute a unique character its among other things special unique items. Which my version has.  Its actually Leouns items he has inherited. I really don't think it should be Leoun since he's dead. If one were to make him generic. but keep all the items I gave him, I would reduce the range of the Crown and command ability to 24 inches and make the armor have a range of 6 inches. I think, that if you keep his unique artifacts; sword, lance, crown, armor... I think he should cost 450...

If you can, I would like you to test him (my version).

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4 minutes ago, Lord Bretonnia said:

I personally think he could very well take Kroak.

The thing is, if you read what constitute a unique character its among other things special unique items. Which my version has.  Its actually Leouns items he has inherited. I really don't think it should be Leoun since he's dead. If one were to make him generic. but keep all the items I gave him, I would reduce the range of the Crown and command ability to 24 inches and make the armor have a range of 6 inches. I think, that if you keep his unique artifacts; sword, lance, crown, armor... I think he should cost 450...

If you can, I would like you to test him (my version).

Alright, I will try him. But in that case I would give both The Crown of Bretonnia and King of the Realm 24”, make him a generic  King on Hippogryph, and give a cost of 400. Even with the -1 to hit he only has 11 points. And while he will be a beast in fair combat, mortal wounds will destroy him, even with the D3 heal per Hero phase. 

 

However I would propose the 24” range, keeping him named, increase his wounds to 13, and giving him a cost of 380.

 

speaking of which, didn’t many die during the end times, but eventually return in age of Sigmar?

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I think I’ll go with the alternative I’ve just added to the text:

 

“However, alternatively I would give a 24” range to the King’s Crown of Bretonnia and King of the Realm. This in exchange for 13 wounds, and making the King a named character for 380 points. 

This hero could be named King Leoncouer, and he could be a descendant from a King Leon Leoncour. “

 

Louen is dead (right?) but his descendant, the current king of new Bretonnia, is not. That way you won’t have such a power creep. Perhaps you could remake that Warscroll like this, and send them again for our future match along with the two other Warscrolls?

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