looking for support Bretonnia Battletome Project

[SpiritofHokuto]

4 hours ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Honestly so disagree, as in our matches we found the Brettonians to just be above average due to their Warscrolls lacking some of the strong utility that other Warscrolls have. I know their abilities seem like a bit much, but please keep in mind that their units aren’t that great on their own. 

 

Also I added 3 more suggestions which I forgot to add

32. Buffing an already powerful ability seems to be a bad idea.

33. This sounds like a good idea and I'll give serious consideration into including it.

34. I can see what you're trying to do but it would be awkward and clunky to word and implement. Maybe giving the units a rider (sic) effect similar to Furies would work?

In all honesty you saying that they appear to be above average means that we're on the right track. The goal is to be above average to good.

[Melcar]

6 hours ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

 

Some questions...

 

Why have you not given Grail Knights a commander? You talk about wanting to match other similar units... basically every other unit has a commander, banner and a musician.  So why does the Grain Knights not have one?

Why don't you think that the epic elite Pegasus knights deserve -1 rend?

 

I'm looking forward to your answer, because so far you have just said "they were in a good place" considering multiple people advise you to change them? I'm sure you have a good reason, and I would love to hear it...

I'm glad you have reconsidered changing the King, that was really a important to me, that he really works perfect. Would you consider making him and the Enchantress generic heroes instead of named?

[henin]

Just going to make a quick note here...

1. This is wonderful work and we consider all suggestions. We read all comments and ideas and think on each one seriously. So thank you guys very much for putting all this effort so far into this! I truly am very happy to see this progress.

2. No worries about the named Lords and such. We have already, for the longest time now, made generic names of them all. I will likely be posting them tomorrow! I just never got around to organizing it yet to post unfortunately. I hope you like the names as much as we do. Also I will be posting potentially some fluff as well to go with the units but I'm not certain yet.

Keep an eye out for these coming updates and I am looking forward to further developing these rules. 

cheers!

[Melcar]

Thats cool... I will be looking forward to it.

[Nielspeterdejong]

Quick message in between, as I will write a longer response this evening.

 

I understand that you don’t want to make them too powerful, but what I can spoil is that we found the Bretonnian units to be Mediocre at best. Most races have some really good mechanics and features, which are built into the unit. Bretonnia units however often just have their charges, which are just for the opening attack. When I got charged myself I was left at a huge disadvantage. Like others have mentioned, most other similar units to the Bretonnians are simply better overall, so these strong buffs aren’t mean to make them top tier, they are meant to make a very weak faction above average. 

 

Especially the Protection of Spirits really needs the change we proposed, as without it the Bretonnian units easily fall like flies. Remember, there is a huge difference with how something works on paper and how it works practice. Without the changes to the Grail Knight, the free items as we proposed, and the Protection of the Spirits my friend would have never been able to win against his opponent who was playing the Undead.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Nielspeterdejong

[Nielspeterdejong]

Also the text for Defenders of the Realm could be made simpler: Add the following text behind the second battalion boon: “Units from The Defenders of the Realm who have killed 10 or more enemy models after this charge (including models lost due to battleshock) or have completely slain an enemy unit, may then both run and charge in your next turn. During this time they may move over enemy models as if they could fly.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Nielspeterdejong

[SpiritofHokuto]

3 hours ago, Melcar said:

Some questions...

 

Why have you not given Grail Knights a commander? You talk about wanting to match other similar units... basically every other unit has a commander, banner and a musician.  So why does the Grain Knights not have one?

Why don't you think that the epic elite Pegasus knights deserve -1 rend?

 

I'm looking forward to your answer, because so far you have just said "they were in a good place" considering multiple people advise you to change them? I'm sure you have a good reason, and I would love to hear it...

I'm glad you have reconsidered changing the King, that was really a important to me, that he really works perfect. Would you consider making him and the Enchantress generic heroes instead of named?

Well Grail Knights have always been like that, none are considered to be above another. Or to put it another way, they all have a champions statline. So basically it's a fluff justification.

Pegasus Knights have never really been considered epic/elite more like standard knights that have lucked out with an unusual mount.

However with these suggestions I'm thinking that perhaps a shifting down of points is on the cards (Grail Knights down to 180, Pegasus Knights down to 160).

1 hour ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Quick message in between, as I will write a longer response this evening.

 

I understand that you don’t want to make them too powerful, but what I can spoil is that we found the Bretonnian units to be Mediocre at best. Most races have some really good mechanics and features, which are built into the unit. Bretonnia units however often just have their charges, which are just for the opening attack. When I got charged myself I was left at a huge disadvantage. Like others have mentioned, most other similar units to the Bretonnians are simply better overall, so these strong buffs aren’t mean to make them top tier, they are meant to make a very weak faction above average. 

 

Especially the Protection of Spirits really needs the change we proposed, as without it the Bretonnian units easily fall like flies. Remember, there is a huge difference with how something works on paper and how it works practice. Without the changes to the Grail Knight, the free items as we proposed, and the Protection of the Spirits my friend would have never been able to win against his opponent who was playing the Undead.

Two games doesn't make for a particularly great sample size. There's so many variables from list selection, comparative player skill, plain old luck etc that many more games would need to be played before any solid conclusions could be drawn. A few bad outings doesn't mean we need to knee-****** buff faction-wide, but just keep things in mind as we go forwards.

[Nielspeterdejong]

We will have another few matches tonight actually  I will let you know more then.

 

also perhaps you could try to field test it as well? Like you said, the more the better.

[SpiritofHokuto]

6 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

We will have another few matches tonight actually  I will let you know more then.

 

also perhaps you could try to field test it as well? Like you said, the more the better.

Oh yes most certainly. I didn't splash out on a mainly Gamezone miniatures army just to have it sit idly by.

[Melcar]

7 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

Well Grail Knights have always been like that, none are considered to be above another. Or to put it another way, they all have a champions statline. So basically it's a fluff justification.

Pegasus Knights have never really been considered epic/elite more like standard knights that have lucked out with an unusual mount.

However with these suggestions I'm thinking that perhaps a shifting down of points is on the cards (Grail Knights down to 180, Pegasus Knights down to 160).

I think it would be a very good idea to reduce their cost. I think the cost reduction you propose is good and I think the 160 and 180 respectfully is good. To be totally honest I would still give the grail knights  a commander, even though they never had one.

I'm glad you also consider adding wounds to the Sacred Protector/Green Knight. 6-7 seems right, but I would probably give it 6 and a 5+ Deathless Minion effect on the shield. (Same effect as a Mourngul have)

 

Trebuchet

I would remove the -1 to attack against non-line of sight targets (from the official) (since it’s the only artillery unit that has that), and price it at 180. Very easy fix. It’s probably the best unit in the army! Whats your plan here... the unit was not included in the alpha version release???

[SpiritofHokuto]

1 hour ago, Melcar said:

I think it would be a very good idea to reduce their cost. I think the cost reduction you propose is good and I think the 160 and 180 respectfully is good. To be totally honest I would still give the grail knights  a commander, even though they never had one.

I'm glad you also consider adding wounds to the Sacred Protector/Green Knight. 6-7 seems right, but I would probably give it 6 and a 5+ Deathless Minion effect on the shield. (Same effect as a Mourngul have)

 

Trebuchet

 

I would remove the -1 to attack against non-line of sight targets (from the official) (since it’s the only artillery unit that has that), and price it at 180. Very easy fix. It’s probably the best unit in the army! Whats your plan here... the unit was not included in the alpha version release???

 

Yeah a 5+ for the Foliate Shield seems to be reasonable.
As for the Trebuchet I think it's mainly to be a deterrent from hero sniping which is something I very much endorse deterring. It's very good at it's job of thinning out large units, but I can see the merit in dropping it down to 180. The reason it wasn't included is because I think it's the only warscroll that we made no changes to.

[Melcar]

6 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

Yeah a 5+ for the Foliate Shield seems to be reasonable.
As for the Trebuchet I think it's mainly to be a deterrent from hero sniping which is something I very much endorse deterring. It's very good at it's job of thinning out large units, but I can see the merit in dropping it down to 180. The reason it wasn't included is because I think it's the only warscroll that we made no changes to.

Glad you agree in relation to the Foliage SHield!

In terms of the trebuchet, The -1 against units in cover, only exist in the 2017 version of Bretonnia, the first AOS battletome did not include it... Just to let you know! I think 180 points is a very good idea!

[SpiritofHokuto]

36 minutes ago, Melcar said:

Glad you agree in relation to the Foliage SHield!

In terms of the trebuchet, The -1 against units in cover, only exist in the 2017 version of Bretonnia, the first AOS battletome did not include it... Just to let you know! I think 180 points is a very good idea!

Yeah I know it was only present in the revised legacy PDF. But I think it's fair enough as the rule doesn't hinder the Trebuchet's main role of thinning out hordes due to the Seismic Impact rule.

[Melcar]

2 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

Yeah I know it was only present in the revised legacy PDF. But I think it's fair enough as the rule doesn't hinder the Trebuchet's main role of thinning out hordes due to the Seismic Impact rule.

true... in relation to that... I think 180 is better than 200!

[Nielspeterdejong]

Alright, I just got back from the last matches. It again ended up being 1 one won and one lost for Bretonnia. I played against the Seraphon, and got destroyed! Their only source of mortal wounds are the charges, and only half were able to put them off due to the Skinks being teleported in and charged into my army.

 

The Bretonnian knights sound good on paper, but against large wound hordes they get destroyed! Perhaps it is an idea to look for an feature that lets them trample over low tier horde units with their hooves like the filthy peasants they are? The Knights are already pretty expensive for what they do, so giving their hooves a effect against units with higher model count would have helped me out.

 

I did like using the Woodsmen with my suggested buffs though. But I will have to stress it out again: They really need those boons, as the Woodsmen were restricted to just a few terrain areas, and they really need that 4+ save chance. My Woodsmen still died, but they were able to deal enough damage to some key units, and keep them busy with their increased survivability. Once those units were down my Pegasus were able to swoop in.

 

The other match was against Sylvaneth, and the reason they won was due to the greater resistance to missile fire from the improved Protection of the spirits. Again, if that was just a bonus against ranged, aka a weaker version of the Undead trait, then he would have lost.

 

We loved the direction you guys have taken. But we do feel that with such mediocre units they really do need those boon ideas. I understand balance and all that, but again theory and practice are two different things.

 

Still, we liked playing with them, so it's definitely a stop in the right direction

[Melcar]

Can you tell what units and how many of each ?

[Nielspeterdejong]

Well sure, for my first match for instance I had a battle with my version of the Sage's Order. I first want to add that I think the Collegiate Arcane are much better suited for the theme of mighty Wizard nobles, who were not taken by the Lady of the Lake but instead became wizards. 

 

For this army I had a Celestial Hurricanum (which also became a Breton Nobility hero), I had 10 Foot Knights, a unit of 5 Knights of the Realm, a unit of 10 knights of the realm, a Lord on Demigryph, a unit of 6 Demigryph, a unit of 40 archers. a damsel, and a unit of 10 Mounted Yeomen. (I might miss some units, I'm not sure). Along with The Sage Order battalion. 

 

My Demigryph performed well, however their Warboss on Mawcrusha just crashed through my lines, and into my Celestial Hurricanum. Like I said, even with the improved Protection of the Spirits boon the Knights of Bretonnia perform poorly against high tier units unless they were able to charge. The Longbow Archers did well, but only because of the improved Stakes trait, as otherwise one of their units would have charged and destroyed them all. I don't mind losing, as he played it better with planning, and even with this disadvantage I still was able to deal somewhat decent damage, which in the end made me feel like I contributed something to the fight. And left me with a sense of satisfaction as well. 

 

Again, I can't stress enough that they really need these boons. Their units on their own are nothing special, and easily killed despite good saves due to all the other factions having tons of mortal wounds and other effects. I know you want to make them above average, but please make them good like this instead. Even all with these boons they are not as good as many other factions, and I can promise you they will not be fun to play with if they are underpowered, and people will not pick them even if they have the models. Having a chance to win is always very important!

 

 

[Melcar]

Is it your believe that the grail knights can match cavalry units like Chaos  Knights??? 

And a question for the designers... where would you rank the grail knights in power compared to other elite cavalry units? (Blood, Chaos, etc). 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Melcar

[Nielspeterdejong]

Honestly I don't think so. That is, unless they get the changes I proposed, which includes the 3+ wound on their Sacred Lance and Sword, and the "Questing Vow" effect but then against CHAOS and DEATH units instead of monsters. In which case they would be able to beat them. In fact, my friend played one unit against the Vampire Counts. It costed a wooping 400 points for a 10 model unit, but they performed really well against some of the Undead bigger monsters and overall. Which makes sense as they are supposed to be these anti evil champion knights of the Lady.

 

EDIT: Again for confirmation: I were using the changes I had listed earlier to the list, meaning that we used a bit of a stronger version of the Battletome.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Nielspeterdejong

[SpiritofHokuto]

 

16 minutes ago, Melcar said:

Is it your believe that the grail knights can match cavalry units like Chaos  Knights??? 

And a question for the designers... where would you rank the grail knights in power compared to other elite cavalry units? (Blood, Chaos, etc). 

In all honesty Chaos Knights are pretty ****** unless used in the Fatesworn Warband. Non-Monstrous cavalry have been given the short shrift in AOS for the most part. With the Breton allegiance abilities I'd easily rank Grail Knights as equal if not better than Blood Knights.

 

10 minutes ago, Nielspeterdejong said:

Honestly I don't think so. That is, unless they get the changes I proposed, which includes the 3+ wound on their Sacred Lance and Sword, and the "Questing Vow" effect but then against CHAOS and DEATH units instead of monsters. In which case they would be able to beat them. In fact, my friend played one unit against the Vampire Counts. It costed a wooping 400 points for a 10 model unit, but they performed really well against some of the Undead bigger monsters and overall. Which makes sense as they are supposed to be these anti evil champion knights of the Lady.

Have any of your games stacked Blessing of the Lady and Wildform? Doing mortal wounds on a 3+ to wound on the charge is something to behold. I know that this is a situation that isn't always going to happen, but we have to take the big picture into account.

[Melcar]

10 hours ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

 

In all honesty Chaos Knights are pretty ****** unless used in the Fatesworn Warband. Non-Monstrous cavalry have been given the short shrift in AOS for the most part. With the Breton allegiance abilities I'd easily rank Grail Knights as equal if not better than Blood Knights.

 

Have any of your games stacked Blessing of the Lady and Wildform? Doing mortal wounds on a 3+ to wound on the charge is something to behold. I know that this is a situation that isn't always going to happen, but we have to take the big picture into account.

The current point suggestion for Grail knights we agreed was 180... blood knights cost 260, both for 5 models... I would like to see 5 grail knights take 5 blood knights! 

Edited January 19, 2018 by Melcar

[Nielspeterdejong]

Well I was thinking about wildform, however I didn't have enough points for both a Celestial Hurricanum and a Wizard, since the CH costs 380 now.

I know where you are coming from, but keep in mind that all the Allegiances have some similar things. Like the Seraphon and their double Bastiladon with Thunderquake. Those are really strong, and I don't think it's unfair to give Bretonnians a similar gimmick as well. One that would actually feel fairer compared to many other lists as well. Also, it will be hardly a gimmick, as you'd still have to invest into a Wizard. 

 

As it stands now the Bretonnians lack a little bit of combos, that is why I suggested the change to the Tailwind to have more movement if the unit has flying, as well as give the Icon of Quenelles one additional spell cast per turn as well.  Also very important is to give the Standard bearer Paladin that free item.

This because without that item, the Paladin is really bad. The item is more meant to give him a sort of "new ability", of which you can choose 3 options. However, in exchange you can then not give the Paladin another item. So in that sense you could see it as a strong ability, but in exchange you could not get the boons of another item. So again, we hope you would consider adding that free item after all. I can understand not giving the general the free item, but we feel that it is pretty important for the mediocre Standard bearer to have that. 

 

Also, what do you think about making the +2 save spell a direct damage spell similar to the Foot of Gork? But this time the damsel gets a bonus for each Nobility unit nearby instead of each Orc unit nearby? They do have access to mortal wounds, but they don't always get that charge off, so it would help them out a ton!

[Melcar]

I have been looking more at the alpha version rules... and I saw that the foot knights are not battleline! I think that would be great. Battlelines are generally a massive annoyance, and making that easier to uphold.

I generally think that all types of knights should be battle line for Brets, but in this case I think that as a minimum the following should be battleline:

• Knight Errands
• Knights of the Realm
• Footmen
• Peasant Archers
• Foot Knights
• (Grail- and Questing Knights)

What are your thoughts?

Edited January 19, 2018 by Melcar

[SpiritofHokuto]

1 hour ago, Melcar said:

I have been looking more at the alpha version rules... and I saw that the foot knights are not battleline! I think that would be great. Battlelines are generally a massive annoyance, and making that easier to uphold.

I generally think that all types of knights should be battle line for Brets, but in this case I think that as a minimum the following should be battleline:

• Knight Errands
• Knights of the Realm
• Footmen
• Peasant Archers
• Foot Knights
• (Grail- and Questing Knights)

What are your thoughts?

I think making all knights battleline will devalue the likes of the Questing/Grail knights relative rarity. It would also mean that Errants/KotR probably wouldn't be taken except as battalion qualifiers. 

We have 4 battleline choices which is as much or more than quite a few factions.

[Melcar]

24 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

 

We have 4 battleline choices which is as much or more than quite a few factions.

Even Foot Knights? If not, I think you should!

Edited January 19, 2018 by Melcar