Tzeentch- change host

[rwrightni]

in the change host formation its ability is deceive and dismay you can swap out 2 different units in your army that are within 27" of the formations Lord of change (if you have 9 or more units in the formation). My question is does this have to happen at one time in the hero phase? Or can you swap out one cast a few spells and then swap out the other? Also it says 2 different pairs..can you swap one of the units twice as long as it's part of 2 differnt spells? Cheers guys

 

Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk

 

 

[BaldoBeardo]

Splitting abilities is something isn't really referred to or defined, much like abilities in general to be frank.

My reasoning is that there's plenty in the FAQ about ability sequencing, but nothing about overlap or whatever.
Accepting that you can "pause" an ability to do something else first can cause all sorts of mischief.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Terry Pike]

On 05/03/2017 at 0:13 AM, Nico said:

Yes - the second (and third) pairs of units can have a common unit in them provided not the exact same pair.

This is still a grey area and I would always check with the TO before you try and move the same unit twice.

I imagine this will be made clear in the next wave of FAQs.

[Hightime]

So has anyone been able to find out what the correct ruling on this is? I can't seem to find an FAQ on it. Or is Gee Dub banking on GH2 to fix up these sorts of things?

[Tokyo Nift]

19 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

That's not one thing splitting, that's the choice of which of two separate effects to implement first. Apples and oranges, my friend.

Hm. I see what you're saying, but in my mind two separate swaps are two separate effects. I can't find anything in the rules that suggests otherwise. Are there any quotes from the rulebook that would imply you can't split these swaps?

[rokapoke]

38 minutes ago, Tokyo Nift said:

I imagine precedent is reasonably hard to find as there aren't that many abilities that work like this. No rule prohibits splitting, true - but the converse is not true - there is a rule that specifically says you can split things that happen at the same time as you see fit. 

Is there any precedent for abilities you _can't_ split? Again, the only rule we have says "if things happen at the same time [here during the hero phase] you choose". I don't know why people are looking for reasons to circumvent that rule when there is nothing written to that effect?

Sorry if this post sounds ranty, totally valid question and good to discuss it, but feels like there's a widespread issue in AoS of people trying to fix rules that really don't need fixing. 

That's not one thing splitting, that's the choice of which of two separate effects to implement first. Apples and oranges, my friend.

[rwrightni]

I think the issue with that particular formation is using the first swap casting off 2 spells devastating your opponents then doing the second swap which included one of the original pair and then activating abilitys and spells to that affect.

Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk

[Tokyo Nift]

I imagine precedent is reasonably hard to find as there aren't that many abilities that work like this. No rule prohibits splitting, true - but the converse is not true - there is a rule that specifically says you can split things that happen at the same time as you see fit. 

Is there any precedent for abilities you _can't_ split? Again, the only rule we have says "if things happen at the same time [here during the hero phase] you choose". I don't know why people are looking for reasons to circumvent that rule when there is nothing written to that effect?

Sorry if this post sounds ranty, totally valid question and good to discuss it, but feels like there's a widespread issue in AoS of people trying to fix rules that really don't need fixing. 

[rokapoke]

Is there a precedent for an ability that specifically can be split? @Tokyo Nift, you say no rule prohibits splitting, but the converse is also true. It's a gray (or grey, for those of you east of the Atlantic) area. I personally side with the do-it-all-at-once crowd simply for the lack of bookkeeping effort (wait, did I do this twice this turn or just once?). 

[Tokyo Nift]

The only thing in the rules about things that happen at the same time is that the player who's turn it is gets to choose.

That means if you have two events that happen in the Hero phase, you can do them in any order. Things you _can't_ split are things like rolling to hit for one ability and then rolling to hit for another before you do wound rolls - because it is explicit how you attack.

If there is no explicit rule forcing you to do things at the same time, there is no basis to claim that any order must be enforced aside from, again, controlling player's whims and fancies.

[Pete_P]

1 hour ago, rwrightni said:

Are their any other abilities that you can trigger more than once guys? Agree Pete needs an FAQ

Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk
 

Well every battalion out there has its special rules listed under abilities so I'm sure there are a ton of them. 

First one that comes to my mind because I use it is Tallyband of Nurgle.

"Impossible Resilience" says you can heal wounds or return models back to multiple units and the number of models is determined by the number of units in the battalion. Do I have to activate that all at once or can I add some models to a Plaguebearer unit on my left flank, cast some spells with a Great Unclean One in the centre and then heal some Plague Drones on the right flank?

The text doesn't make it clear either way and obviously that isn't as open to the same kind of shenanigans but it's the same issue.

 

[Nico]

Quote

That's what I interpret from reading it but I will concede it's not defined in a concrete manner either way and would benefit from an official FAQ. 

It's worth emphasising that while it's clearly a strong ability, it's not a cheap combination to pull off. The size of the Battalion is big and you cannot fill it with any kind of Daemon you like. 

If you don't get first turn, then shredding one unit of Pinks or even Blues to get the Battalion below 9 will make the battalion a lot weaker. There are a few hard counters to the Changeling as well kicking around too (Skitterleap, Cloak of Mists and Shadows, Vexillor).

[rwrightni]

Are their any other abilities that you can trigger more than once guys? Agree Pete needs an FAQ

Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk

[Pete_P]

The question really lies on if you are triggering the ability twice or if it is one ability that allows multiple swaps. 

I personally believe it is an ability that you can activate more than once if you have the required number of units and therefore you wouldn't be interrupting it pausing it by casting or using other abilities in between swaps.

That's what I interpret from reading it but I will concede it's not defined in a concrete manner either way and would benefit from an official FAQ. 

[Nico]

@BaldoBeardo

On the cannot split up the same ability - I'm not convinced. This seems like something that probably existed in 8th edition, but isn't anywhere in the AoS rules as far as I can tell.

Here - the Battalion has an ability and then a further rule that says you can use that ability more than once if criteria are met. It's not an ability that is constrained as to being at the start of the hero phase.

I don't see why it's not possible to do one swap, then do some other hero phase abilities, then do the second swap. This also seems to be integral to the value of the Battalion.

Yes - the second (and third) pairs of units can have a common unit in them provided not the exact same pair.

[Tokyo Nift]

On 03/03/2017 at 9:11 AM, BaldoBeardo said:

I'm not convinced. It is a single ability that has a variable effect, as written.
It's definitely ambiguous.
Good rule of thumb - especially if you're a tournament goer - is when things aren't clear, always interpret rules in the least advantageous way. Prevents horrible surprises/bad experiences.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 

Good rule of thumb. 

[BaldoBeardo]

I'm not convinced. It is a single ability that has a variable effect, as written.
It's definitely ambiguous.
Good rule of thumb - especially if you're a tournament goer - is when things aren't clear, always interpret rules in the least advantageous way. Prevents horrible surprises/bad experiences.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Tokyo Nift]

Why are you saying it's a single ability? It's a single ability you can use twice, that makes the order up to you.

[BaldoBeardo]

That's a passive ability though - it requires a separate trigger event.

The change host ability scales depending on army size. It's still a single ability. You're not waiting on other trigger conditions.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Tokyo Nift]

18 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Abilities are resolved in the order of current player's turn choice. That's backed up by the FAQ and the battletome hints'n'tips.

To put another way; 2 lord Relictors are within range of the same, single model in an enemy unit and use their lightning strike ability.
The first roll is successful, so the unit is going to take wounds.
Because the player knows his opponent will remove the single model, he then says as he's already got a damage roll in the bag, he's going to roll for the second one before working out damage for the first.
Clearly that's not acceptable.

The changehost is a single ability. Once you start resolving it, you have to complete before moving on to another. Which means making any and all switch moves.


Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 

"Single ability" is not clear here at all. As you said abilities are resolved in the order of current player's turn's choice.

Imagine if the text was "In your opponent's hero phase you may attempt to unbind one spell even if you are not in range; if this battalion has 9 or more units you may unbind two."

No one would suggest that you have to use both of those unbinds at the same time, it doesn't make sense.

The Changehost text says in your hero phase you may swap the position of two different pairs of units, there is no suggestion at all about these being simultaneous. 

Also you can definitely swap the same unit twice as long as it is part of a different pair. Imagine if it was the "same pair" may swap twice, and you tried to swap A with B and then B with C - that would obviously be incorrect - different pairs does not imply completely different pairs.

[BaldoBeardo]

Abilities are resolved in the order of current player's turn choice. That's backed up by the FAQ and the battletome hints'n'tips.

To put another way; 2 lord Relictors are within range of the same, single model in an enemy unit and use their lightning strike ability.
The first roll is successful, so the unit is going to take wounds.
Because the player knows his opponent will remove the single model, he then says as he's already got a damage roll in the bag, he's going to roll for the second one before working out damage for the first.
Clearly that's not acceptable.

The changehost is a single ability. Once you start resolving it, you have to complete before moving on to another. Which means making any and all switch moves.


Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[rwrightni]

That abilities have to be resolved at once

Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk

[BaldoBeardo]

Where does it say what?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[rwrightni]

I agree Baldo however where does it say that?

Sent from my SGP771 using Tapatalk

[BaldoBeardo]

Don't know about "different pairs" - gut instinct would be the intent is that you can't swap the same unit twice, but agree it's not clear.
But you have to resolve all the swaps at once.
Abilities can be resolved in any order you choose, but they do have to be resolved.
You aren't using the ability 1-3 times, you're using a single ability that has a differing effect based on size of army.
So no, you wouldn't be able to swap a pair, cast a spell, then swap another pair as you are pausing this ability to resolve another one.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk