Brute Spam... i dont like it

[Solaris]

2 hours ago, IronjawzBrian said:

Don't get me wrong for competitive reasons I would love a points drop but I dont think its necessary.  He hits harder than nearly any other model in the game, he moves faster than nearly any other model in the game, and a 2+/4++ is pretty much the best saves you can get outside of Nagash.  I don't see how all that does not equate to being 500+ points.

Yeah, no, this is simply not true. In our own GA: Destruction we have the Frostlord on Stonehorn, which hits significantly harder (16.56 vs 11.56 average wounds per combat phase), is just as fast if not faster, and is significantly more durable. Whereas the Maw-krusha needs the ToP, the Frostlord has a similar ability included, and can go for BB instead which brings him up to a whopping 25.28 average wounds per combat phase. The Frostlord is also 60 points cheaper. They both also do similar amounts of mortal wounds when they charge. The Maw-krusha has his Bellow, which does on average 1.94 wounds per two combat phases. What brings the Maw-krusha up is his command ability, which sadly doesn't see so much use since we're generally dependent on IP. In my experience I can use Waaagh! instead of IP maybe 30-40% of the time, so it's definitely good though.

You can also compare him to the Freeguild General on Griffon, which has slightly lower damage output (9.78 vs 11.56 average wounds per combat phase), same survivability and higher speed. He costs 300 points. The major difference between these two models, since they both have good command abilities, is the Maw-krusha's mortal wounds on the charge, and his Bellow. I don't think these two abilities are worth 220 points though.

I'm not saying that the Maw-krusha is bad. He isn't. He brings something to the table that changes the dynamic of the entire army, which can be incredibly useful. What I am saying is that he is certainly not an auto pick in an Ironjawz list. It is not entirely obvious that he is a better pick than e.g. 5 Brutes + 10 Ardboys + 3 Gore-gruntas or a Megaboss + 5 Brutes + 10 Ardboys.

[Furious]

18 minutes ago, Beau said:

One maw krusha is the same (roughly) points costs of 3 units of brutes or Ard Boyz. If you think that a maw krusha is Betta than 3 of either of those things you're crazy. 

There's almost always something generally better.  The Maw Crusher offers somethings that those units don't, and while it's not as good as however many units equal its point value, few heroes are. I see that it's not the greatest, but it does have its value.

[Solaris]

10 minutes ago, Furious said:

There's almost always something generally better.  The Maw Crusher offers somethings that those units don't, and while it's not as good as however many units equal its point value, few heroes are. I see that it's not the greatest, but it does have its value.

I completely agree. I think it's neither an auto include, nor an auto exclude.

[Sangfroid]

here is a list: 

megaboss (general, ravager, talisman)

megabos (battlebrew)

chanter

weirdnob

5x5 brutes

3x 10 ardboyz 

Ironfist (or my recent preference a brutefist) 

Ardboyz are a screen so your going to find it hard to engage my units T1 unless you get a double turn so you can shoot me (I'm giving you turn 1 or if you give it to me I'm not moving an inch) even if you can shoot, what exactly are you going to shoot? My general, that's fine by me one maybe 2 units of brutes?, shaman, chanter, Ardboyz even as they are bravery 6 right now so better return on your battleshock forced test. The point is that if you spread your shooting out too much it's ineffective as the paintrain will be coming in at practically full steam, if you focus and kill a unit (maybe 2!) or a character either way if you have that much shooting and what's left gets in your grill then it's going to get rolled over.  If I get unlucky and get double turned then it's going to hurt but it would hurt what ever army I take. 

Brute spam therefore works if you breakdown the army to such a point where you can afford to lose anything including the general and it not really effect your plan. If he is alive your general is waaagh every turn and if your lucky or facing an enemy that wants to fight you back +1 or +2 attacks across 4 or 5 units of brutes is terrifying, we all must have Megaboss and brute boss stories, mine where the brewboss kills 5 judicators with his choppa while his fist nails 3 judicators from a second unit or a couple of weeks ago when a waagh'd up brute boss took 11 wounds off an araknarok... before the other 2 remaining brutes lifted their weapons. Brutespam gives you 5-7 threats that the enemy has to stop and stop fast, outside of pure gunline armies i think it gives us a different and potentially strong play style.

That said Personally (from experience so far so reserved the right to change my opinion at the drop of a hat!) the brute-spam only works for me if you plan to waaagh every turn (I.e have no big units for IP), if you can play a tight formation game (difficult to explain in text sorry), I'd even say using a brutefist as well because if they don't kill all 5 brutes you have a single model that can hit you for D3 mortal wounds and then hit as hard  as a 80/100 point hero and has 3 or even 5 wounds.

Flip side, to this is if you want a large 10/15 man brute unit then maybe only want 1 or 2 (at most) 5 man brute units and then Ardboyz/goregruntas for a more balanced play style where you block/hold objectives and then manoeuvre the brutes and or crusha to do the killing. 

Both are viable but are very different play styles from each other so you have to play differently not just change the army list to really make it work

[Solaris]

Very solid arguments, @Sangfroid. It's a very uncompromising playstyle, but it's strong. It's basically a large mass of very durable bodies that is not dependent on any single one of it's components. A friend of mine has been playing a similar style with Khorne BB, with somewhere between 100 and 150 4+ wounds of Skullreapers, Wrathmongers and Blood Warriors, some screens of Bloodreavers, 5-6 small heroes and the Skulltake formation. It's been doing very well for him.

[Furious]

Ahh, the classic green tide. It's harder to get with IJ, but that looks sufficiently tidey enough with 59 Orruks. I'd say 75 minimum for a tide, but they're all bigger than normie Orruks...

That list is pretty much what Orruks are all about - "We're coming, ****** you, shoot us if you want, ****** you, I'm smashing your face now."

[MidasKiss]

6 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Yup, 100%. I've been banging this drum forever. Playing against The UK Master this past weekend in an Ironjawz-off I was able to get him to experience this first hand. It's rough, really rough. I had an interesting question aimed at me a while back, I think maybe from @MidasKiss, querying whether I thought Bravery buffs might be the best possible allegiance abilities we could get (if we got them). I agree it could be.

It was me! Thanks for the shout out  

[IronjawzBrian]

8 hours ago, Solaris said:

Yeah, no, this is simply not true. In our own GA: Destruction we have the Frostlord on Stonehorn, which hits significantly harder (16.56 vs 11.56 average wounds per combat phase), is just as fast if not faster, and is significantly more durable. Whereas the Maw-krusha needs the ToP, the Frostlord has a similar ability included, and can go for BB instead which brings him up to a whopping 25.28 average wounds per combat phase. The Frostlord is also 60 points cheaper. They both also do similar amounts of mortal wounds when they charge. The Maw-krusha has his Bellow, which does on average 1.94 wounds per two combat phases. What brings the Maw-krusha up is his command ability, which sadly doesn't see so much use since we're generally dependent on IP. In my experience I can use Waaagh! instead of IP maybe 30-40% of the time, so it's definitely good though.

You can also compare him to the Freeguild General on Griffon, which has slightly lower damage output (9.78 vs 11.56 average wounds per combat phase), same survivability and higher speed. He costs 300 points. The major difference between these two models, since they both have good command abilities, is the Maw-krusha's mortal wounds on the charge, and his Bellow. I don't think these two abilities are worth 220 points though.

I'm not saying that the Maw-krusha is bad. He isn't. He brings something to the table that changes the dynamic of the entire army, which can be incredibly useful. What I am saying is that he is certainly not an auto pick in an Ironjawz list. It is not entirely obvious that he is a better pick than e.g. 5 Brutes + 10 Ardboys + 3 Gore-gruntas or a Megaboss + 5 Brutes + 10 Ardboys.

I see that... the stonehorn is great, it also does not fly and can be much easier screened for.  And how is the griffon more survivable than the 3+/4++ of the MawCrusha, this point is just mathmatically wrong.  To your third point the command ability, I use it EVERY TURN, as I run a balanced Ironjawz list I do not feel the need to IP at all.  Im not saying hes without flaws but I think hes solid and I dont leave home at 2000 without him.

[Solaris]

5 hours ago, IronjawzBrian said:

I see that... the stonehorn is great, it also does not fly and can be much easier screened for.  And how is the griffon more survivable than the 3+/4++ of the MawCrusha, this point is just mathmatically wrong.  To your third point the command ability, I use it EVERY TURN, as I run a balanced Ironjawz list I do not feel the need to IP at all.  Im not saying hes without flaws but I think hes solid and I dont leave home at 2000 without him.

The Griffon is not more survivable, it is as survivable. They both have the same 3+ save. The 4++ is not inherent to the Maw-krusha, so I excluded it from my comparison. If you count it in, the Maw-krusha becomes more durable than the Griffon. There are then a bunch of fun artefacts you can give to the Griffon to strengthen it.

I agree it's a solid option, I just don't think it's an auto pick.

[N_Watson]

When discussing points costs of the Mawcrusher, and saying "it's a 3+/4+" you need to start comparing it to other beasts with an artifact. 

So the general on griffon having quicksilver potion for example. Or maybe the artifact for one more rend. Command trait to allow reroll to charges. 

Also, there is an argument to be made that even though the Mawcrusher has fly, he is still less manoeuvrable than the frost lord simply down to the dinner plate sized base the Mawcrusher comes with. 

Not bashing the Mawcrusher at all, because I love the model, and love it's rules. But to say it is up there with the best monsters, at it.s current points cost, is flat out wrong. 

He brings something we can't get elsewhere, sure, but he is overpointed. 

[Beau]

26 minutes ago, N_Watson said:

When discussing points costs of the Mawcrusher, and saying "it's a 3+/4+" you need to start comparing it to other beasts with an artifact. 

So the general on griffon having quicksilver potion for example. Or maybe the artifact for one more rend. Command trait to allow reroll to charges. 

Also, there is an argument to be made that even though the Mawcrusher has fly, he is still less manoeuvrable than the frost lord simply down to the dinner plate sized base the Mawcrusher comes with. 

Not bashing the Mawcrusher at all, because I love the model, and love it's rules. But to say it is up there with the best monsters, at it.s current points cost, is flat out wrong. 

He brings something we can't get elsewhere, sure, but he is overpointed. 

If we're being hyper competitive I think there are better alternatives to the Maw Krusha. He's cool and thematic though. But when you compare him to a stonehorn though, it's really night and day.

[Chris Tomlin]

I'll come back around here later on when I have some time (and my daily likes have refreshed - lots of good stuff here!), but one thing I haven't seen mentioned here regarding the Cabbage, which is really important in comparisons I think; base size.
That huge pie plate certainly has some downsides (and also bonuses tbh, if you like the command ability for example). Worth consideration.

Whilst I haven't agreed with all that @IronjawzBrian has said (which is cool, different opinions are a good thing!), I do concur with many of his thoughts on the Cabbage and what it brings to the Ironjawz list. Unfortunately it isn't always as simple as saying 3 units are better than him as they simply don't do the same thing.

Certainly towards the back end of 2016 and the start of this year I'd drifted away from the big dog, but as I've said above he's really impressed me of late, despite perhaps being in the list out of necessity (painted models) than choice.

Back onto topic re Brute spam. I think an MSU Brutefist is an option currently and will probably gain in power post GH2. I guess that I the definition of Brute spam, however my negative comments were more based on multiple units of 10 etc.

But yeh, I'll expand on some of that and/or reply to the above responses later on.

Good topic!

[Lord Biscuit]

The thing I find with Brute MSU is that you really get what you pay for; a single brute unit is exceedingly good at killing monsters and is fairly good vs everything else. They break easy but the whole point is that one or two units could be slaughtered; but you would still have another bunch to carry on the slaughter and usually a brute unit should do sangificant damage to whatever it hits. In addition; it frees up the commander to do more then make a singlar unit fearless; by accepting these losses as a matter of course and letting the unit bosses go crazy it's possible to just throw damage downrange.

 

When we basically have 3 troops choices, it makes sense to stack up on the unit that does the most work and moderate more tactical options. Object holders as 'ardboys as they are tougher and although perhaps less killy due to lack of Rend will hang around. We don't have much in the way of unit flexability.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I haven't tried it yet, does the Brite Fist Battalion increase the value of multiple Units of Brutes? 

[Chris Tomlin]

12 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I haven't tried it yet, does the Brite Fist Battalion increase the value of multiple Units of Brutes? 

I suspect so yeh. @Sangfroid has been looking at these kind of lists recently.

[N_Watson]

3 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I haven't tried it yet, does the Brite Fist Battalion increase the value of multiple Units of Brutes? 

I have played a bunch of games with a Brutefist list. Taking 4 - 5 units of 5 brutes. Some with jagged gorehackas behind double choppas. Yet to lost a game with the list, having played vs Nurgle tallyband, Flesheaters 9 - 12 horros unit list, and a few Stormcast lists. Managed 10 games with it over the last 2 weeks. 
There is a few weaknesses obviously. Vs the Stormcast player in one game, he picked of 1 -2 brutes from 3 different units, and I ended up losing some from each unit to battleshock. Good thing about running the Cabbage with this list though is it makes them pick between the brutes and the Mawcrusher. It's hard to deal with both. 
Couple the MSU brutes with the Waaagh and the ability to charge in the hero phase for mortal wounds, even 2 or 3 of them can really do a lot of damage. Its like having 6 Megabosses. 

[Nico]

Quote

Very solid arguments, @Sangfroid. It's a very uncompromising playstyle, but it's strong. It's basically a large mass of very durable bodies that is not dependent on any single one of it's components. 

I'm thinking it's analogous to how Khorne Bloodbound play in that every individual part of the army is expendable (except you're MUCH faster) but with fewer/tougher/rendier models, rather than the 100+ flood of Khorne. It's a strong army as it doesn't have any single point of failure and can weather a lot of damage (particularly mortal wound sniping type damage, aka DoT) without becoming crippled.

The fact that so much of the Brute Damage output is concentrated into the last few models to die really helps with that.

[Whitespyre]

On 01/03/2017 at 7:11 PM, Sangfroid said:

here is a list: 

megaboss (general, ravager, talisman)

megabos (battlebrew)

chanter

weirdnob

5x5 brutes

3x 10 ardboyz 

Ironfist (or my recent preference a brutefist) 

Ardboyz are a screen so your going to find it hard to engage my units T1 unless you get a double turn so you can shoot me (I'm giving you turn 1 or if you give it to me I'm not moving an inch) even if you can shoot, what exactly are you going to shoot? My general, that's fine by me one maybe 2 units of brutes?, shaman, chanter, Ardboyz even as they are bravery 6 right now so better return on your battleshock forced test. The point is that if you spread your shooting out too much it's ineffective as the paintrain will be coming in at practically full steam, if you focus and kill a unit (maybe 2!) or a character either way if you have that much shooting and what's left gets in your grill then it's going to get rolled over.  If I get unlucky and get double turned then it's going to hurt but it would hurt what ever army I take. 

Brute spam therefore works if you breakdown the army to such a point where you can afford to lose anything including the general and it not really effect your plan. If he is alive your general is waaagh every turn and if your lucky or facing an enemy that wants to fight you back +1 or +2 attacks across 4 or 5 units of brutes is terrifying, we all must have Megaboss and brute boss stories, mine where the brewboss kills 5 judicators with his choppa while his fist nails 3 judicators from a second unit or a couple of weeks ago when a waagh'd up brute boss took 11 wounds off an araknarok... before the other 2 remaining brutes lifted their weapons. Brutespam gives you 5-7 threats that the enemy has to stop and stop fast, outside of pure gunline armies i think it gives us a different and potentially strong play style.

That said Personally (from experience so far so reserved the right to change my opinion at the drop of a hat!) the brute-spam only works for me if you plan to waaagh every turn (I.e have no big units for IP), if you can play a tight formation game (difficult to explain in text sorry), I'd even say using a brutefist as well because if they don't kill all 5 brutes you have a single model that can hit you for D3 mortal wounds and then hit as hard  as a 80/100 point hero and has 3 or even 5 wounds.

Flip side, to this is if you want a large 10/15 man brute unit then maybe only want 1 or 2 (at most) 5 man brute units and then Ardboyz/goregruntas for a more balanced play style where you block/hold objectives and then manoeuvre the brutes and or crusha to do the killing. 

Both are viable but are very different play styles from each other so you have to play differently not just change the army list to really make it work

So how do you tend to arm your 5 units of brutes?

[Sangfroid]

@Whitespyre currently 2x5 with choppas (and boss claws), 1 x5 jagged hacka (boss claw) 2 x5 jagged hackas (boss choppas) 

this is more my collection as the jagged hackas are there for also being in a 15 man unit, ima getting 5 more brutes and these will be made up as choppas, 

so my ideal mix would be 3x5 choppas 2 x5 jagged hacka this is because I sit the 2" brutes behind the others so that if charged they can pile in and attack also (and then they also act as 2nd wave of brutes) the other 5 2" protect the footboss but I'd prefer these to be choppas if I could 

[Whitespyre]

18 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

@Whitespyre currently 2x5 with choppas (and boss claws), 1 x5 jagged hacka (boss claw) 2 x5 jagged hackas (boss choppas) 

this is more my collection as the jagged hackas are there for also being in a 15 man unit, ima getting 5 more brutes and these will be made up as choppas, 

so my ideal mix would be 3x5 choppas 2 x5 jagged hacka this is because I sit the 2" brutes behind the others so that if charged they can pile in and attack also (and then they also act as 2nd wave of brutes) the other 5 2" protect the footboss but I'd prefer these to be choppas if I could 

Thought about a weirdfist for the list. Does really weaken the Heroes thought?

[Oreaper84]

3 hours ago, Whitespyre said:

Thought about a weirdfist for the list. Does really weaken the Heroes thought?

i like this....and i am really liking the wierdfist with BwV. Though it is a one use only....should be to hard to reach every unit you want to stomp or buff. Got off 2 x Foot's with it the other day....if only i 'd ran the wierdfist  would have been throwing 3-4 dice into it too!