Brute Spam... i dont like it

[IronjawzBrian]

So I've been playing Ironjawz for about a year now.  With some success, I took 3rd with pure BALANCED Ironjawz at the Las Vegas Open, and was 2nd in battle points.  I'm seeing a ton of lists right now that have between 20-40 brutes, and I just don't like it for a few reasons.  Just wanna hear some peoples thoughts on this. 

1. They have abuse able bravery.  There was a gentlemen playing a list like this at LVO and what happened to him was his opponent took every opportunity to force bravery tests and he lost a good number of Brutes that way.

2. Why not Ardboys, I love them.  Your getting 20 wounds with a 4+ and they also hit pretty damn hard.  They have the potential to have 8 bravery in combat and get them long bomb charges.

3. I personally think that they will be going up in points in GH2, perhaps to 200 or even 220 for the unit. 

[Voc]

Congratulations IronjawzBrian on your success at LVO!  

It's all about the Boss Klaw isn't it - Auto hit with the Smasha for those extra D3 damage points? 

Personally I prefer Brutes over Ardboys because they are way easier to paint as the details on the Black Orc models are some what blended in places.  That aside I've not played more than 1k games (just starting out in the AoS after being fed up of 40k) with my Ironjawz and only roll with one unit of Ardboys (plus 2 x brutes / 1 x Gruntas / Megaboss / Warchanter & Ironfist) but will certainly be adding another when I expand to 2k.

I saw you had a cabbage in your list, have you ever considered/playtested swapping it our for more Brutes (or Ardboys)?

[IronjawzBrian]

4 minutes ago, Voc said:

Congratulations IronjawzBrian on your success at LVO!  

It's all about the Boss Klaw isn't it - Auto hit with the Smasha for those extra D3 damage points? 

Personally I prefer Brutes over Ardboys because they are way easier to paint as the details on the Black Orc models are some what blended in places.  That aside I've not played more than 1k games (just starting out in the AoS after being fed up of 40k) with my Ironjawz and only roll with one unit of Ardboys (plus 2 x brutes / 1 x Gruntas / Megaboss / Warchanter & Ironfist) but will certainly be adding another when I expand to 2k.

I saw you had a cabbage in your list, have you ever considered/playtested swapping it our for more Brutes (or Ardboys)?

Under no circumstances would I consider removing my Battle Cabbage.  He is a huge threat piece, hes extremely quick, I love his command ability, he draws so much fire, and he hits like train.  I really really don't understand peoples dislike of the model.  Having that much damage potential on a model with that much speed with that solid of saves is terrifying to an opponent.  Ive found I disagree with most of what a lot of Ironjawz players think about our faction as a whole. 

On a side note your right Brutes and ton more fun to paint then Ardboys.

[Chris Tomlin]

Hi Brian,

19 minutes ago, IronjawzBrian said:

So I've been playing Ironjawz for about a year now.  With some success, I took 3rd with pure BALANCED Ironjawz at the Las Vegas Open, and was 2nd in battle points.  I'm seeing a ton of lists right now that have between 20-40 brutes, and I just don't like it for a few reasons.  Just wanna hear some peoples thoughts on this. 

Yeh, I am also of the opinion that right now a balanced build is the way to go. I used 30 Brutes (2x 10 and 2x5) at Clash last year with the Ardnob as General. The plan was the use his Command Ability to alleviate the Bravery and it just didn't work due to the short range.

My personal opinion is that 20 is probably about as many as you would need - my current preference is a 15 and 5.

I do get the MSU approach though, as @Voc says you get to maximise the fantastic Klaw & Smasha. Also once we lose the ability to take the Brute Big Boss as General this will probably become a stronger option.

20 minutes ago, IronjawzBrian said:

1. They have abuse able bravery.  There was a gentlemen playing a list like this at LVO and what happened to him was his opponent took every opportunity to force bravery tests and he lost a good number of Brutes that way.

Yup, 100%. I've been banging this drum forever. Playing against The UK Master this past weekend in an Ironjawz-off I was able to get him to experience this first hand. It's rough, really rough. I had an interesting question aimed at me a while back, I think maybe from @MidasKiss, querying whether I thought Bravery buffs might be the best possible allegiance abilities we could get (if we got them). I agree it could be.

I think the gentleman you're talking about is Elric Edge. He Twitter DM'd me his list and I have to say I didn't think much to it.

20 minutes ago, IronjawzBrian said:

2. Why not Ardboys, I love them.  Your getting 20 wounds with a 4+ and they also hit pretty damn hard.  They have the potential to have 8 bravery in combat and get them long bomb charges.

Ardboys are great and super important for us. Damage wise, they don't compete with Brutes due to the lack of special weapons, however they make great screens / first wave attackers to ensure the real damage dealers get in as unscathed as possible.

I think a good Ironjawz list would want to utilise both units to their strengths. The Bravery 8 is huge.

20 minutes ago, IronjawzBrian said:

3. I personally think that they will be going up in points in GH2, perhaps to 200 or even 220 for the unit. 

No chance.

Interesting topic though Brian, I look forward to hearing from someone who does advocate the use of 30+ Brutes!

Chris

[Voc]

It's been the points cost vs quantity of units (for the purpose of capping objective) that's put me off the cabbage.  Certainly not the model - it's one of the best AoS models out there by far.  

 

[Furious]

I never experience trouble with Brutes - focus out three of them in a unit and there's a good chance I don't have to deal with that unit anymore next turn - they run away so easily. However, I've learned my lesson about slamming into a unit of 20+ Ard Boys. That's a scary unit. They get their banner bravery bonus plus their rank bravery bonus, which Brutes rarely get. They're better for objective capturing, too. I don't know why I don't see very many Ard Boyz heavy lists around.

[Chris Tomlin]

4 minutes ago, Furious said:

I never experience trouble with Brutes - focus out three of them in a unit and there's a good chance I don't have to deal with that unit anymore next turn - they run away so easily.

Whilst this is most certainly true, the remaining 2 Brutes in a unit should not be underestimated (if they do stick around that is!!) as invariably they will be the Boss with Klaw & Smasha and his Gore-choppa armed mate! These two models alone can still be relied upon for some hefty damage output.

But yeh, in general you make a fair point!

I also think Brutes being one of the nicest (the nicest IMO) unit boxsets GW makes does weigh into the army building process as well. They are fantastic modern miniatures and the Ardboys feel terribly dated by comparison.

[Voc]

11 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

I also think Brutes being one of the nicest (the nicest IMO) unit boxsets GW makes does weigh into the army building process as well. They are fantastic modern miniatures and the Ardboys feel terribly dated by comparison.

I agree and this is why people take them over Ardboys!  I had to paint over a hundred Black Orcs when I worked for GW back in the day and they were a pain in the ass!  Currently I paint one Brute and two Ardboys at the same time to soften the blow

So what, one solid unit of 20 Ardboys with shields + two units of 10 Ardboys with Big Choppas then a cabbage plus two units of Brutes, one ten man one 5 man.  Make the rest up with Warchanters and a Ironfist Battalion if you've the points spare?

 

 

[Voc]

3 minutes ago, Voc said:

So what, one solid unit of 20 Ardboys with shields + two units of 10 Ardboys with Big Choppas then a cabbage plus two units of Brutes, one ten man one 5 man.  Make the rest up with Warchanters and a Ironfist Battalion if you've the points spare?

lolz litrally 2k -  http://bit.ly/2lcznLV

[Furious]

21 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

I also think Brutes being one of the nicest (the nicest IMO) unit boxsets GW makes does weigh into the army building process as well. They are fantastic modern miniatures and the Ardboys feel terribly dated by comparison.

I agree - the five Brutes you get are amazing looking. Some of the best looking Orruks since the Savage box. That sixth Brute, though... he's kind of the same as the first, isn't he? There's not a lot of model variation among the IJ, including Ard Boyz - but I don't use those models, so I can't comment (my Ard Boyz are converted Nobz for that extra anarchistic look).

[Solaris]

I would agree with most of the things said here, I think a balanced approach is by far superior. The way I see it, our three staple units have distinctly different battle-field roles, and having an unbalanced list will only limit our tactical options. I envision an approximate 3/2/1 split between Brutes/Ardboys/Gore-gruntas as the golden standard.

The Brutes are the (somewhat frail) heavy hitters, and need protection in order to reach combat unscathed. When they do, they are by far the most dangerous basic unit we have access to, and are the best receivers of buffs.

Ardboys are very resilient with 5 more wounds per 180 points than the other two, plus two separate banners that both boost their survivability. They are fantastic as bubble wrapping for more important units and can put out a decent amount of damage as well. They are especially impressive against enemies with bad saves.

Gore-gruntas are fast and resilient against battleshock. I find them extremely useful for running interference and controlling the movement of my opponent's shock troops, as well as tying them up in combat for a turn or two while I go to town on the rest of their army.

In all, I wouldn't build a list without either of these. They are all essential due to their very different abilities, and going too heavily into any one of them will only limit my options on the board.

That being said, the Ardboys do seem like a pain to paint. I'm not looking forward to it.

[Chris Tomlin]

2 minutes ago, Furious said:

I agree - the five Brutes you get are amazing looking. Some of the best looking Orruks since the Savage box. That sixth Brute, though... he's kind of the same as the first, isn't he? There's not a lot of model variation among the IJ, including Ard Boyz - but I don't use those models, so I can't comment (my Ard Boyz are converted Nobz for that extra anarchistic look).

The 31 Brutes I've painted all look suitably individual. No duplicates yet. I've converted arms and switched out heads, added 40K parts etc though it should be said.

Nobz as Ardboys sounds great, got any pics? The actual Ardboy models is the single thing that's put me off adding more to my army, despite me knowing I need them. My second unit is sprayed and ready to paint (converted from Blood Bowl Orcs so will hopefully be fun to do).

[Chris Tomlin]

45 minutes ago, IronjawzBrian said:

Under no circumstances would I consider removing my Battle Cabbage.  He is a huge threat piece, hes extremely quick, I love his command ability, he draws so much fire, and he hits like train.  I really really don't understand peoples dislike of the model.  Having that much damage potential on a model with that much speed with that solid of saves is terrifying to an opponent. 

Agree with the general idea here (though not all the specifics), I posted a number of thoughts on the Cabbage recently in the 'Competitive' Ironjawz thread so you can check there for more.

But in short, I do think he should be a staple of the list. Ruleswise he is good and offers something very different. The issue is of course his ridiculous points value, but still, he has a place (definitely not an auto pick though for all armies at present I appreciate). I've used him in all bar 3 of my 2,000pt games this year, including taking him to The Masters and Sheffield Slaughter this past weekend and he's performed well.

I'll admit, an element of this is definitely due to what I have painted and also the fact he is such a phenomenal model, but yeah, he's done me proud I gotta say.

When he gets a suitable points drop in GH2 I think we will see him in all lists...and rightly so!

[IronjawzBrian]

2 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Agree with the general idea here (though not all the specifics), I posted a number of thoughts on the Cabbage recently in the 'Competitive' Ironjawz thread so you can check there for more.

But in short, I do think he should be a staple of the list. Ruleswise he is good and offers something very different. The issue is of course his ridiculous points value, but still, he has a place (definitely not an auto pick though for all armies at present I appreciate). I've used him in all bar 3 of my 2,000pt games this year, including taking him to The Masters and Sheffield Slaughter this past weekend and he's performed well.

I'll admit, an element of this is definitely due to what I have painted and also the fact he is such a phenomenal model, but yeah, he's done me proud I gotta say.

When he gets a suitable points drop in GH2 I think we will see him in all lists...and rightly so!

Don't get me wrong for competitive reasons I would love a points drop but I dont think its necessary.  He hits harder than nearly any other model in the game, he moves faster than nearly any other model in the game, and a 2+/4++ is pretty much the best saves you can get outside of Nagash.  I don't see how all that does not equate to being 500+ points.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I much prefer the Brute models. To be honest I don't think the Ard Boyz fit particularly well with the aesthetic of the Ironjawz. As well as the obviously poorer models technically, Ard Boyz have the Geenskin gorilla esque body shape where as Ironjawz are much more upright. Brute armour is way cooler as well with the fist beaten Ironjawz look. 

[Furious]

21 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

The 31 Brutes I've painted all look suitably individual. No duplicates yet. I've converted arms and switched out heads, added 40K parts etc though it should be said.

Nobz as Ardboys sounds great, got any pics? The actual Ardboy models is the single thing that's put me off adding more to my army, despite me knowing I need them. My second unit is sprayed and ready to paint (converted from Blood Bowl Orcs so will hopefully be fun to do).

This is the best pic I have - most of them are blocked, but you get the idea, right?

[Fungrim]

19 minutes ago, IronjawzBrian said:

Don't get me wrong for competitive reasons I would love a points drop but I dont think its necessary.  He hits harder than nearly any other model in the game, he moves faster than nearly any other model in the game, and a 2+/4++ is pretty much the best saves you can get outside of Nagash.  I don't see how all that does not equate to being 500+ points.

2+/4++? You mean with Mystic Shield and Talisman??

If so you can't really include that within the pointage

I agree he's a big gribbly and can't be dropped down too far. But Verminlords are within the 300-400 category. I'd say Megaboss on Cabbage is in the 350-450 category (or thereabouts)

[Voc]

29 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

My second unit is sprayed and ready to paint (converted from Blood Bowl Orcs so will hopefully be fun to do).

Genius.  Definitely looking into that idea....

So @IronjawzBrian what did you arm your Megaboss with on his Maw-Krusha?  I'm thinking Choppa & Rip-tooth Fist?

 

 

[Kuma]

Personally, The brutes are just so much better for me. The small units are huge threats and pretty durable, (sans bad battleshocks). the 15 man with a general in it was insanely good. Ardboys havent performed well for me ever, but they do hold objectives well, which is the only reason I still take them. 

[Chris Tomlin]

Good work @Furious - They look cool, much better than the stock models.

41 minutes ago, IronjawzBrian said:

I dont think its necessary.  He hits harder than nearly any other model in the game

41 minutes ago, IronjawzBrian said:

he moves faster than nearly any other model in the game

Wondering about what other models in the game you've actually played!  

41 minutes ago, IronjawzBrian said:

and a 2+/4++ is pretty much the best saves you can get outside of Nagash.  I don't see how all that does not equate to being 500+ points.

As per @Fungrim's post, you cant really include the Mystic Shield, I know we get buffs, but it's not an auto cast and nor is he always the choice for that spell. Also what if we don't get first turn and he gets shot? You simply can't go putting him down as a 2+ save for arguments sake I'm afraid.

Talisman is definitely the right choice though, along with Choppa & Riptooth Fist @Voc

@Kuma - That 15 with General has been doing solid work for me all year, no matter the build around them, that has been the core of the list.

[N_Watson]

I disagree that ardboys are the way. I feel that without the sort of 15 to 20 brutes I take, things just wouldn't die. 

They get no reroll and a maximum of -1 rend. Starting at a 4+ to hit, they can't be relied upon to do any meaningful damage to anything that you think to yourself "this has to die or I'm going to be in trouble" 

Where as with brutes, be it a big unit with inspiring presence or a little one with a Waaagh buff, I know they are going to get some work done. 

If taking Mawcrusher, I would take more than 20, and as I hate the models, I don't see myself taking more than 10. 

Also, for 520 points, the Mawcrusher doesn't hit hard enough, tank enough damage or move fast enough if you ask me! 

I like 400 points for the Cabbage as he is vs some other things. 

I have always maintained with this game and others, to nerf/comp something negatively, it has to be broken as is. It's much better to buff other things to compete. 

[Anaticula]

My 2 cents here.

Brutes die quite fast, either by mortal wounds or battleshock. Yes, they are a hammer, and yes, one needs them. But at least one unit of Ardboyz with its 20 wounds and bravery 8 is a  much needed tank.

[AAUBURGER]

2 hours ago, IronjawzBrian said:

So I've been playing Ironjawz for about a year now.  With some success, I took 3rd with pure BALANCED Ironjawz at the Las Vegas Open, and was 2nd in battle points.  I'm seeing a ton of lists right now that have between 20-40 brutes, and I just don't like it for a few reasons.  Just wanna hear some peoples thoughts on this. 

1. They have abuse able bravery.  There was a gentlemen playing a list like this at LVO and what happened to him was his opponent took every opportunity to force bravery tests and he lost a good number of Brutes that way.

2. Why not Ardboys, I love them.  Your getting 20 wounds with a 4+ and they also hit pretty damn hard.  They have the potential to have 8 bravery in combat and get them long bomb charges.

3. I personally think that they will be going up in points in GH2, perhaps to 200 or even 220 for the unit. 

AGREED, especially with the second point. Ardboys are solid, and for the points the numbers just make sense in objective play. The Brute spam just has way too big a target on it. 

[AAUBURGER]

2 hours ago, IronjawzBrian said:

So I've been playing Ironjawz for about a year now.  With some success, I took 3rd with pure BALANCED Ironjawz at the Las Vegas Open, and was 2nd in battle points.  I'm seeing a ton of lists right now that have between 20-40 brutes, and I just don't like it for a few reasons.  Just wanna hear some peoples thoughts on this. 

1. They have abuse able bravery.  There was a gentlemen playing a list like this at LVO and what happened to him was his opponent took every opportunity to force bravery tests and he lost a good number of Brutes that way.

2. Why not Ardboys, I love them.  Your getting 20 wounds with a 4+ and they also hit pretty damn hard.  They have the potential to have 8 bravery in combat and get them long bomb charges.

3. I personally think that they will be going up in points in GH2, perhaps to 200 or even 220 for the unit. 

And congrats in the success!

[Beau]

3 hours ago, IronjawzBrian said:

Under no circumstances would I consider removing my Battle Cabbage.  He is a huge threat piece, hes extremely quick, I love his command ability, he draws so much fire, and he hits like train.  I really really don't understand peoples dislike of the model.  Having that much damage potential on a model with that much speed with that solid of saves is terrifying to an opponent.  Ive found I disagree with most of what a lot of Ironjawz players think about our faction as a whole. 

On a side note your right Brutes and ton more fun to paint then Ardboys.

One maw krusha is the same (roughly) points costs of 3 units of brutes or Ard Boyz. If you think that a maw krusha is Betta than 3 of either of those things you're crazy.