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Painting for Advantage


Thebiggesthat

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I heard this come up in the Hard6 podcast, and was interested in what the community (not on twitter) thinks!

As I understand it, there was a discussion on whether using rules for a particular Stormcast 'faction' was allowed if they weren't painted as such. There are some really cool new rules there, and some better than others. 

So simple question, should we have to paint our models in a certain colour to get the benefits, or should there be a more relaxed attitude?

 

Personally, I take a lot of time painting things in what I like, and with colours that I think look cool. It would be a massive shame if I couldn't play a list without ruining a paint job.

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I think this may have come from a certain somebody who sells scenery dice and runs this community site, stirring the pot on a Twitter Discussion a couple of weeks ago :D 

Personally I see it as the the following and I'm going to use some 40K stuff here because it's a similar issue with Space Marines....

If I turned up to a battle with a Blood Angel army, my opponent should expect for me to have my space marines painted up as Blood Angels. If I turned up to a battle with a successor Blood Angel army, they can use the Blood Angel rules and be painted up how I want them.

To me, it's as simple as that. No need to make it complicated as everybody should be able to play with their toys and explore cool colour schemes.

 

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To be fair didn't @Ben say he was thinking give reduced hobby scores, at his events, to armies that were painted differently to the forces they were representing on the table rather than saying you couldn't use rules depending on how your Stormcast were painted? 

I actually think this is fair when considering awards for things like best army at an event.  Which is a subjective award so I'd expect this sort of think applies anyway  

 @Gaz Taylor I don't care how similar Stormcast and Astartes are your Twilight Marines need to stay off the tables in AoS games ? (I know you were just making an example but I couldn't resist) 

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Yeah, if you've put the effort in to paint your army in a pleasing way you're happy with, no-one has the right to disqualify you from playing, unless you've painted it with freehand Naughty Bits™ all over it when kids are aboot.

Taking the 40K example, the game and setting are deliberately designed to be open to wild interpretations of canon factions. I have an Imperial Guard force wielding Tau weaponry and hybrid vehicles, for example, that I explain each item to my opponent with beforehand. As long as it's understandable - i.e., that Chimera chassis with an oversized Ion Cannon at a 45-degree angle is a Basilisk artillery vehicle - then I don't see any problem with it, and nor do my regular opponents. In fact, non-regulars actually seem to like playing against something that novel and unique.

As far as paintjobs, I feel the same way. I'd rather you take the time and effort to paint a scheme to a good standard that you like, than feel forced to slap red paint on marines because you want to play Blood Angels.

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Just now, Ollie Grimwood said:

To be fair didn't @Ben say he was thinking give reduced hobby scores, at his events, to armies that were painted differently to the forces they were representing on the table rather than saying you couldn't use rules depending on how your Stormcast were painted? 

It was something like that which is basically to wind everybody up ;) 

 

1 minute ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

 @Gaz Taylor I don't care how similar Stormcast and Astartes are your Twilight Marines need to stay off the tables in AoS games ? (I know you were just making an example but I couldn't resist) 

Quiet you ;) 

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Funnily enough I was having this conversation yesterday.  I think if you've already got your army then it's fine to do simply plug in the new battalions.  I do believe that people who are starting off with an army should be making an effort to follow the corresponding colour schemes so that it looks like a coordinated battalion.  I think it's more difficult for AoS because people tend to chop and change their armies around and locking Stormcast into a specific chamber could prevent this if it became enforced.

The 40k argument could go on forever, suffice to say that there are enough Space Marine succession chapters to cater for most colour variations, though I would be peeved if somebody plonked down a load of Ultramarines and tried to use Space Wolf rules ;) 

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Oh hell no! I run from this bs from 40k, AoS is supose to bring the best of creativity! A comunity rule that handipac those that paints their army an specific colour, rather than going bare plastic and being polyvalent is a rule that go against aos Core values! Competiviness to this extreme is what kill the tournament scene in fantasy to more fluffy players!

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if I really wanted to have someone bang on about just how exact a colour scheme or theme has to be I'd have played napoleonic or historic wargames.

For me the hobby is about having fun, and enjoying what I'm doing.  I can't see what the problem is especialy if there's a nice bit of fluff as well to support it.  But then again that's easy for me to say as I can to wargaming from role playing like the supporting presenter on Heelanhammer so I totally got what no points was all about.

My answer would be that if an opponent was that concerned then just walk away.  Admittedly, if there is a precedent set then sure by all means use the correct fluff and was just trying to be that guy by just pointing to his ultramarines and saying "spacewolves" because their book had just come out and it was the new filth say.

Also, it fosters the new purchases which in turn keep the product lines and the business alive.  Everyone complained when brets and TK's died.  Truth is had they kept on selling they would still be here.

 

I do agree though that if you've gone to a lot of trouble to paint it up as one particular faction / group whatever then why would you want to say its something else, a in Gaz's example above- that would get on my wick as well.

 

All my chaos warriors were painted in a neutral scheme, but I made sure the standard bearer was unique to the god's mark or i'd use daemons or something fitting as unit fillers to add theme and flavour, it's not like I had a load of blight kings on a tray and pointed to them saying - Tzeentch filth grinders as they were the new hot kid on the block.

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33 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

 Everyone complained when brets and TK's died.  Truth is had they kept on selling they would still be here.

This always ends in a circular argument though, because most argue that Brets not being updated was why they didn't sell, and then others say they didn't get updated because they weren't selling, then around and around we go.

Thankfully GeeDub seems more willing to take a punt on outsiders judging by releases like Genestealer Cults.

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4 hours ago, Thebiggesthat said:

There are some really cool new rules there, and some better than others. 

I think this is the core of it. Would anyone who might complain be less bothered by the strength of a particular list if every stormcast player painted it up appropriately?

I would argue we've moved away from a more bothersome scenario without stormhost colour being considered - imagine if Warrior Brotherhood had been Hammers of Sigmar only. Maybe 1/4 of the WBs you saw would have been gold and blue.

 

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As long as they're painted, I don't care what rules they use as long as it's legal. There's so much interpretation in the background of the game (My army is undercover as these other guys), that it isn't worth the argument. As someone said, precise paining requirements belongs with Historicals players and not in a Fantasy game.

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Considering most if not all tournaments require you to have at least 3 colours I wouldn't say it's outrageous for a tournament to request that models are painted appropriately to their fluff, but I'd say that these are probably best being narrative ones.

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What is to stop players from saying they are running the Stupendoustm Stormcast chapter but using the Hallowed Knights mega-Battalion as their rules since they aren't allowed to create rules.  Are you going to tell them they aren't allowed to use any battalions since their chapter isn't in the lore?  Alternatively, are we going to force Sylvaneth players to paint their models to their appropriate Wargroves?  How about with the disciples of Tzeentch cults?  Do Tzaangor in the Pyroflame cult have to be hot pink?  

Ben originally wanted to give bonus points for appropriate color schemes.  I get the desire to encourage people to embrace their armies and lore.  I get it; I really do.  But the problem is the that while these are "bonus points", if you want to compete you'll angle for every point you can acquire, which means that you must paint according to those paint schemes if you want the points.  What is even more problematic is that if you are playing a faction or battalion that doesn't have a set paint scheme, you can't even qualify to get bonus points.  This means that to have the best chance to score the highest, players will need to play official paint schemed armies, however many those are.  This means that if an army doesn't have a battle tome, your maximum possible points is automatically lower than anyone else who has a battle tome.  This seems like it may even skew the armies that show up at events.

 

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2 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Considering most if not all tournaments require you to have at least 3 colours I wouldn't say it's outrageous for a tournament to request that models are painted appropriately to their fluff, but I'd say that these are probably best being narrative ones.

This is because it preserves the flavor of the event. I'd wager very few people play wargames solely as a game, with no hobby interest whatsoever. Requiring a basic 3 Colors + Basing is a far cry from making sure the iconography is correct, or you match the paint job in the Codex/Book, etc. That's a very slippery slope to go down I'd argue. You could counter by saying "Then why have paint at all?" but I think the simple act of any paint to promote the hobby is very different from the zealous adherence to specific Battalions, Chapters, Factions, etc. as @Thomas Lyons laid out very well.

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I'm mostly amused/horrified by considering the real life edge cases.

For instance.  My Stormcasts are sort-of painted as Hallowed Knights.  But not with the exact shade of blue, or even the exact shade of silver.  And not at all matching the tertiary colours.  So how strict are we being again?  They're blue and silver...

LOL/OMG

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To be honest this is an interesting question.  In 40k, you get around it by saying your guys are a "successor chapter" and use the parent chapter's rules, but people might still roll their eyes at using Space Wolf rules for a homebrew chapter (as Space Wolves can't have successors).  In AOS, there isn't any such thing.  I think, ultimately, it should not matter as nothing in the chambers seem to be particularly tied to that stormhost, its just the way they normally fight, similar to combat doctrines rather than personality (there are some minor exceptions I think).  However, I think it will ultimately depend on the group in question; it would be very easy to simply pick whatever is perceived as the "best" stormhost rules, painting be damned, and I feel while this is technically okay, it's definitely not in the "spirit of the game" because it's done for a purely mechanical/powergaming advantage.  

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1 hour ago, Gauche said:

This is because it preserves the flavor of the event. I'd wager very few people play wargames solely as a game, with no hobby interest whatsoever. Requiring a basic 3 Colors + Basing is a far cry from making sure the iconography is correct, or you match the paint job in the Codex/Book, etc. That's a very slippery slope to go down I'd argue. You could counter by saying "Then why have paint at all?" but I think the simple act of any paint to promote the hobby is very different from the zealous adherence to specific Battalions, Chapters, Factions, etc. as @Thomas Lyons laid out very well.

I did also say it's best left to narrative events, most of whom likely have models painted appropriately.

If people like the idea it will be a success,  if it's a success it's obvious liked and popular.

So, if it expands to other tournaments it's as it's popular. 

So it's not TO's forcing their will on people as people decide by their feet, if no one likes it, no one will go.

Simple logic really. 

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Puting a rule, in zones were only one event\tournament exist, saying "do this or dont come" and when people do it, say "see? People like it" It's a flaw logic.

First, you can put a rule that everibody who want to attend should put a white t-shirt, and we all know what will happen. People It's gonna do it. Things like "social smoker" exist from the same basic instintive behaviour than this

 

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It erases any ability to "forge your own narrative" though. Plus how do you dictate how Death should look? I've got skeletal Necromancers, is that legal? My Blood Knights ride undead Cold Ones, is that legal? How far down this rabbit hole do we go? Or so we declare anything but the most boring, vanilla models and paint jobs to be verboten? For a point that claims to come from the view of "preserving the hobby," this only cripples it in my opinion.

Plus I painted all my Wood Elves with black skin, so are they banned because they've canonically only ever been shown as white?

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