Bretonnians, are they as good as they say?

[Sir_Ling]

Hey guys.

From almost all internet sources I've heard that Bretonnians are really good, but after playing them couple times I don't really see it.

Of course, I see that archers are OP as heck, trebuches are quite good (maybe I don't see it because I always fail 3+ wound roll  ), and Louen is awesome, but all of those units are very costly in points, and good only against enemies that don't know their way around the game.

From my impressions, army based on peasants with paladin leader are awesome, but come on, I didn't pick knights army to play only with pesantry.

KotR are very costly in my opinion, especially that unit of 8 is much weaker then unit of 16. Errant's are awfull in comparison to KotR, and are imo only to be brought if you want to take the battalion.

I don't understand why you would take Questing Knights over Grail Knight, especially because they are very situational and much weaker. It also angers me that when I was preparing for an 3,5k game, I coundn't find points to field either of those units, since everything is so Lady-damn expensive.

In accordance to the latest FAQ, the Green Knight is awfull because you have to leave points to make him appear again if he dies.

The most problems I have with the Bretonnian Lord, since he is mediocre as a hero and has an Lady awfull dommand ability.

 

What do you guys think about this faction? I know that I'm very critical of it, but I'm trying to become a better player and hearing only praises of this army for people who only looked at the warscrolls and didn't play with or against them won't help me with this.

[Aezeal]

Where did you hear they are good.. never read that anywhere.

[Sir_Ling]

1d4chan tactics for example.

[Paul Conti]

Some of their units are really good, others not so much.

The good:
Grail knights, Pegasus Knights, Lord on Pegasus, Damsel, Trebuchet

I actually really like the Lord on Pegasus on his own with an artefact to power him up. Not for a general, just for use in hunting the backfield, taking objectives, or being a solid road-block. He packs a punch for his points.

Playing only Brets really isn't a great idea. They have some issues with battleline troops - either Men-at-Arms, or expensive blocks of knights. Their options for generals aren't that great - Louen is probably the best, but he's 400 points, which is a huge investment. Their battalions are also terrible.

Add in some other Free People units, Hurricanum, etc. and they're good. Basically I'd say they're an excellent suppliment to a Free People force, or a diversified Order force. On their own they're not that good.

[Aezeal]

9 minutes ago, Paul Conti said:

Some of their units are really good, others not so much.

The good:
Grail knights, Pegasus Knights, Lord on Pegasus, Damsel, Trebuchet

I actually really like the Lord on Pegasus on his own with an artefact to power him up. Not for a general, just for use in hunting the backfield, taking objectives, or being a solid road-block. He packs a punch for his points.

Playing only Brets really isn't a great idea. They have some issues with battleline troops - either Men-at-Arms, or expensive blocks of knights. Their options for generals aren't that great - Louen is probably the best, but he's 400 points, which is a huge investment. Their battalions are also terrible.

Add in some other Free People units, Hurricanum, etc. and they're good. Basically I'd say they're an excellent suppliment to a Free People force, or a diversified Order force. On their own they're not that good.

True... but this goes for most order factions. Hurricanum and Gryph hound boost nearly every army unless it looses a specific allegiance. 

[Shoe]

I'm not the best player in the world but this is the list my Son uses and I can't beat it. 

Leaders
Bretonnian Lord (140)
- General
- Mount: Pegasi
Damsel Of The Lady (100)
Damsel Of The Lady (100)
Paladin (80)

Battleline
16 x Knights Of The Realm (440)
16 x Knights Of The Realm (440)
16 x Men At Arms (120)

Units
5 x Grail Knights (180)
16 x Peasant Bowmen (200)
- No Stakes
16 x Peasant Bowmen (200)
- No Stakes

Total: 2000/2000

[HobbyHammer]

Brets can be awesome! But you need to invest a lot of points in a big block knights, this is the I run and do ok with 

Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Bretonnian Lord (140)
- General
- Mount: Pegasi
- Trait: Reckless
- Artefact: Quicksilver Potion
Damsel Of The Lady (100)
- Mount: Steed
Damsel Of The Lady (100)

Battleline
24 x Knights Of The Realm (660)
16 x Men At Arms (120)
16 x Men At Arms (120)

Units
32 x Peasant Bowmen (400)
- No Stakes
10 x Grail Knights (360)

Total: 2000/2000
 

The idea being, you put everything into the big block and use it as a wrecking ball. Play for double turns. Use one Damsel for the Blessing and one for a Mystic Shield

[KHHaunts]

I think for the most part they are a one trick pony (Pun intended)

What i mean is that few people have found a combination thats powerful outside huge cavalry blocks which is what they are about at the end of the day.

as said above 1d4chan has some god breakdowns of the units individual capabilities.

Bretonnians are very good in my oppinion. However despite the simplicity of their tactics (Maximising charges) they are very tricky to use.

However for the record i belive louen is one of the best generals around so very worth his points.

[Sir_Ling]

5 hours ago, HobbyHammer said:

Brets can be awesome! But you need to invest a lot of points in a big block knights, this is the I run and do ok with 

Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Bretonnian Lord (140)
- General
- Mount: Pegasi
- Trait: Reckless
- Artefact: Quicksilver Potion
Damsel Of The Lady (100)
- Mount: Steed
Damsel Of The Lady (100)

Battleline
24 x Knights Of The Realm (660)
16 x Men At Arms (120)
16 x Men At Arms (120)

Units
32 x Peasant Bowmen (400)
- No Stakes
10 x Grail Knights (360)

Total: 2000/2000
 

The idea being, you put everything into the big block and use it as a wrecking ball. Play for double turns. Use one Damsel for the Blessing and one for a Mystic Shield

This looks very promising, thanks  I'm thinking about changing Bretonnian Lord for Paladin BSB, and Grail Knights for Pegasus Knights. What do you reckon?

[HobbyHammer]

1 minute ago, Sir_Ling said:

This looks very promising, thanks  I'm thinking about changing Bretonnian Lord for Paladin BSB, and Grail Knights for Pegasus Knights. What do you reckon?

Because of the Reckless Command Trait, you don't need the BSB as it is basically the same thing, and peg Knights are weak compared to what Grails can do.

[Sir_Ling]

I guess I'll have to paint my Grail Knights then

 

[HobbyHammer]

Just now, Sir_Ling said:

I guess I'll have to paint my Grail Knights then

 

You definitely won't regret that decision! 

[Sir_Ling]

Are Grail Knights really so much better than Pegasus ones? I get that they have a re-roll and rend, but the other ones can attack two times, are much more mobile and have more wounds so they won't loose as much models. You've said that peg Knights are wak in comparison, but I don't see that weakness.

[KHHaunts]

10 minutes ago, Sir_Ling said:

Are Grail Knights really so much better than Pegasus ones? I get that they have a re-roll and rend, but the other ones can attack two times, are much more mobile and have more wounds so they won't loose as much models. You've said that peg Knights are wak in comparison, but I don't see that weakness.

I think that its very situational. Id prefer the grail knights in general but their are a few circumstances when the P knights are better.

 

22 minutes ago, Sir_Ling said:

I guess I'll have to paint my Grail Knights then

 

How many do you have. I have had a bret force for years and as such ive stuck to the slightly more retro Knight OTR. Which is good for me becuse it means i can use the newer models as grail knights (Who incidently have exactly the same horses as grail knights and are just as ornate and better quality then the resin IMO) Which means you can get a much larger group for a fraction of the price.

[Sir_Ling]

36 minutes ago, KHHaunts said:

How many do you have. I have had a bret force for years and as such ive stuck to the slightly more retro Knight OTR. Which is good for me becuse it means i can use the newer models as grail knights (Who incidently have exactly the same horses as grail knights and are just as ornate and better quality then the resin IMO) Which means you can get a much larger group for a fraction of the price.

After I've heard thet they will be making them OOP, I've gotten one 5 pack of resin ones and I've got 5 metal ones, so no need for proxying. I don't think I'll be using more, since I also have 10 questing knights. 

I'm asking about pegesus knights, since I have 12 of those, and I'm looking how to use them other than source of mounts for my Damsells and Lords.

[Slick_Kid]

Sir Ling, first off, I want to thank you for starting off this conversation. It warms my heart to see people even talking about the beloved Bretonnians. Everyone has so many awesome ideas and input. It's Fantastic!

 

But, to answer the question of are Bretonnians any good? Yes! Yes, they are! They are definitely not a top tier army in the current meta, That is for sure. But they are the best iteration of Bretonnia that we have seen in forever and are a deadly force in the hands of a player who can prepare for an opponents double turn. Of course, as a Bretonnian player you rely on the charge but you have to take tools to prepare for losses. I am not the best player by any means, but I have ran Bretonnia as my first and only army carried over from 8th and into AoS and I can say that I have had success with it. Bretonnia just took 1st place in Order for ITC and 2nd Overall in ITC! So, yeah, they're still good! I took them hoping to show GW and the rest of the fans that they are definitely a force worth keeping around in the GHBII

 

I have messed with my list since the beginning of AoS, but since the drop of the GHB I have never ran peasnts and I keep my lances at 16 Knights. I agree that King Louen is probably the best general for a Bretonnian force . . . if you take peasants. However, I have never taken peasants and probably never will. They are cheap, but near worthless as peasant bowmen are not battleline and you can reach into the FreePeoples Faction and borrow 30 Freeguild Guard who are cheaper and better. Once you pay your 240pts of tax, you can fill the rest with Bretonnia. But, if you are a traditionalist like me the you can still use your Men at Arms and do a small conversion by giving them swords. (They are still GW models.) I have tickled the idea of running Battle Pilgrims, but that is a whole different discussion. Don't get me wrong. I have tried over and over again to try and fit King Louen into my list and try to find a viable way for him to work but he is just too expensive whichever way you look at it.  You can refer to my review I did about my King in a recent post: 

I will probably start a youtube review of the Bretonnian Compendium going through each unit soon. But in the meanwhile, I will briefly give my two cents on the units mentioned above. I have attached my LVO2017 list if you care to take a look. 

 

For my General, I take a Bretonnian Lord on Pegasus with Strategic Genius and the Relic Blade. This allows me to make one unit immune to battleshock and re-roll charges for nobility units within his 15" radius. I normally put this on my Pegasus Knights first turn and my next turn either keep the Pegasus Knights locked in combat if it is a good matchup or retreat them and put these two abilities on another unit. The relic Blade isn't bad as the Lord already has -1 rend and doing D3 +1 +1 damage on the charge is quite good! With his ability to sling around inspiring Presence twice is close to King Louen status and comes out to be a third his cost. Plus with his Courage of Bretonni, he can return fleeing units back into a position to charge again on a 4+. The Bretonnian Lord's only drawback I see is he is 5 wounds whether you put him on a Pegasus or not. So, keep him hidden behind a building, in cover, or out of line of sight.

 

Always take the Fey Enchantress! For 60 pts more you can almost automatically cast another spell and if you are running Knights like you should be or Battle Pilgrims, her Favour of the Fey gives that unit +2 to hit roll. Suck it Mourngul or Nefferata or Nurgle! So essentially, use her grail to cast Mystic Shield, then cast Favour of the Fey on the Pegasus Knights or Grail Knights. That means now that your Pegasus Knights are going to get a charge off at +2 to hit and wounding on a 3+ even if you slam into Death or Nurgle! Oh, don't forget you can pile in and attach twice! Yeah!

 

Then take a Damsel of the Lady and cast Blessing of the Lady on the Pegasus Knights or Grail Knights. This means that the Pagasus Knights will now get a guaranteed charge with rolling 4D6, taking the two highest and re-rolling charges (because you are going to be within 15" of your general right?) into their frontline or Monster. They will be hitting on 2+, wounding on 3+, piling in and attacking twice, and then when they hit back you have a 2+ save with a 5+ defensive roll against unsaved saves and mortal wounds. Yup!

 

Now, after taking your 30 Freeguild Guard I was looking into taking 16 KotR and having a unit with 32 attacks on the charge with just the mounted knights, but after much test play and evaluation, the Grail Knights are worth so much more for less cost. So, I take 2 units of 10 Grail Knights. I do not need to explain their damage output. They are straight up baller! They hit on 3+ with re-rolls (ask your opponent if you have to raise your cup and praise the Lady. It's always common courtesy. Then just re-roll anyway. You are paying for the points.) wound on 3+ with 20 attacks, -1 rend, 2 damage. should delete a good portion of a unit before your horses cleanup because the horses are re-rolling to hit as well. Also, if your knights are still on squares you are able to rank up the knights into two ranks and still be able to attack a target as 50mm is slightly less than 2". True fact!

 

"No Trebuchets?!" you ask. Yeah, that's right. I've tried them. Trust me. They are extremely powerful, like they always have been. However, remember when I said earlier that you have to prepare for some losses and also anticipate that you may or may not get that back to back turn? Case in point. Say your opponent will get first turn. You get your one shot against something. He gets second turn. He has a unit that flies or alpha strikes. Most likely you will not get to shoot your 220 pt Trebuchet more than once per game. Maybe its just me, but you can get 5 Grail knights for cheaper cost than a Trebuchet.

 

That is pretty much my list. It is a nine drop list, yeah, but it holds it's own and never goes down without a fight. Always play to the objectives because with Bretonnia, you will never be able to outpunch a mortal wound-giving list. So, remember your Blessing of the Lady and keep your lances sharp brethren!

 

 

LVO2017.pdf

[Shoe]

9 hours ago, Sir_Ling said:

This looks very promising, thanks  I'm thinking about changing Bretonnian Lord for Paladin BSB, and Grail Knights for Pegasus Knights. What do you reckon?

Putting a paladin next to your peasant bowmen unit makes them good for the entire battle as long as he lives. 

[Furious]

Out of curiosity from this discussion, I went to make a theoretical list. I stopped when I looked at the battleline options. They are poor, or too expensive to not heavily invest in. Men-at-arms are so expensive for what they do, it's unbelievable. The most overcosted batteline unit in the game probably. Total waste of points. Sad!

The two knight units (Realm/Errant) are similar enough to lump together - they both seem pretty good, but still, they excel significantly more with at least two purchases of each in one unit, but running three of them in 2000 points takes up a lot of space.

The biggest shock came to me when I saw that Battle Pilgrims aren't faction battleline. This is a really cool unit, with interesting, unique rules and good synergy that no one will ever use because they essentially fill the role a batteline unit should, without taking a slot up. On top of that, still pretty expensive.

I didn't get beyond that because that seems to be the factions problem - battleline is either an expensive investment (or a terrible and expensive investment), which for some units is worth the pointage, but leaves little room for other things within the faction - more so than other armies.

[scrollbuilderdude]

At LVO I got smacked by 9 Peg knights (with buffs) first turn, which hit pretty damn hard.  Unfortunately for my opponent, we were playing three place of power, and his lord on peg with two damsels had a hard time stopping my Seraphon riding dinosaurs. Still, I was pretty impressed with the mobility and power of his units. 

[Slick_Kid]

39 minutes ago, Furious said:

Out of curiosity from this discussion, I went to make a theoretical list. I stopped when I looked at the battleline options. They are poor, or too expensive to not heavily invest in. Men-at-arms are so expensive for what they do, it's unbelievable. The most overcosted batteline unit in the game probably. Total waste of points. Sad!

The two knight units (Realm/Errant) are similar enough to lump together - they both seem pretty good, but still, they excel significantly more with at least two purchases of each in one unit, but running three of them in 2000 points takes up a lot of space.

The biggest shock came to me when I saw that Battle Pilgrims aren't faction battleline. This is a really cool unit, with interesting, unique rules and good synergy that no one will ever use because they essentially fill the role a batteline unit should, without taking a slot up. On top of that, still pretty expensive.

I didn't get beyond that because that seems to be the factions problem - battleline is either an expensive investment (or a terrible and expensive investment), which for some units is worth the pointage, but leaves little room for other things within the faction - more so than other armies.

Word. I agree with everything.

[Slick_Kid]

29 minutes ago, scrollbuilderdude said:

At LVO I got smacked by 9 Peg knights (with buffs) first turn, which hit pretty damn hard.  Unfortunately for my opponent, we were playing three place of power, and his lord on peg with two damsels had a hard time stopping my Seraphon riding dinosaurs. Still, I was pretty impressed with the mobility and power of his units. 

Dude, your Ripperdactyls were insane. Not to mention your Bastiladon destroyed my unit of Grail Knights before they got to charge. 8 dead Grail Knights!

[scrollbuilderdude]

13 minutes ago, Slick_Kid said:

Dude, your Ripperdactyls were insane. Not to mention your Bastiladon destroyed my unit of Grail Knights before they got to charge. 8 dead Grail Knights!

Hey there! It was great to meet you and your army was stunningly painted! 

I can't exactly recall the priority rolls of those first turns but with the rippers + bastiladon w/ hand of glory + Engine doing 5 mortal wounds to your general... it ended up being a really good first couple turns for me. I think there are a few of things that could have changed (bastiladon dying, eotg not getting the mortal wounds) that could have changed the outcome of the game pretty drastically.

[Slick_Kid]

Yeah, the first turn was just brutal either way. Hahaha

 

[Slick_Kid]

5 hours ago, Furious said:

Out of curiosity from this discussion, I went to make a theoretical list. I stopped when I looked at the battleline options. They are poor, or too expensive to not heavily invest in. Men-at-arms are so expensive for what they do, it's unbelievable. The most overcosted batteline unit in the game probably. Total waste of points. Sad!

The two knight units (Realm/Errant) are similar enough to lump together - they both seem pretty good, but still, they excel significantly more with at least two purchases of each in one unit, but running three of them in 2000 points takes up a lot of space.

The biggest shock came to me when I saw that Battle Pilgrims aren't faction battleline. This is a really cool unit, with interesting, unique rules and good synergy that no one will ever use because they essentially fill the role a batteline unit should, without taking a slot up. On top of that, still pretty expensive.

I didn't get beyond that because that seems to be the factions problem - battleline is either an expensive investment (or a terrible and expensive investment), which for some units is worth the pointage, but leaves little room for other things within the faction - more so than other armies.

You are too right, Furious. Our Battleline options aren't great. To start off, I love everything Bretonnia!!! Do not get me wrong, but the reason I started Bretonnia was for the knights in shining armour - all lined up with banners gleaming ready to charge the enemy with full tilt of their lance. To run knights as Battleline would be and should've been the reason to run Bretonnia - for the knights! I always envisioned the Knights Errant as the cheap knights who were impetuous and eager to please - the knights that a general could call forth an Errantry Crusade to send into battle as a first wave. The Knights of the realm as hardened fighters and those most loyal to their Lords of the provinces. Then, with Grail Knights, theses guys should have been like saints. The way Bretonnia is structures yet again missed the mark. 

 

Believe me, I have tried to fill my Battleline with all Errant Knights. I fill units of 24 or 16 at least to get maximum effect. But I look at it and think why not just use Knights of the Realm for 20 more points? They hit better and if I am running them in 16-24 Knights, they get two attacks, which is more than fair with their 'Massed Cavalry' rule. But hot damn! I need 3 Battleline units. By the time you fill your Battleline, you barely have enough for a Lord and maybe a Damsel. That means you get mediocre Knights and that's it! Nothing else to take care of anything decent in the game. Don't underestimate the mass of Knights you can take, but our Knights still don't grind well in combat. 

 

So, say you resort to Men-At-Arms as your Battleline. You are going to take at least 32 and maybe 48. You need 3 units still so even when you get to 3 units of 32 Men-At-Arms, that's a whole lot of really ****** dudes for the price of a unit of Knights. Why wouldn't you invest into Knights at that point? because they're so damn expensive! I would take Peasant Bowmen instead but that is not an option. So, for now, I think I will invest in my FreeGuild Guard as Battleline and take the Knights I love from Bretonnia.

 

I am still waiting on them to update or release new Batallions for free people. I was always hoping for a Grail Crusade where you can take Battle Pilgrims and maybe Grail Knights as Battleline. But one can dream . . .

[Furious]

Also, the wonky unit numbers is arbitrary at this point. The boxes aren't for sale anymore, so they don't need to adhere to units of 8, 16 etc. Just go with five and 10 already!