Razorfate Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Apparently GW nerfes some undercosted Tomb Kings units by increasing their point values in the upcoming General Handbook II. They are experimenting with the points in a tournament in England. Here is the link. I think this is great news for the game as general, if they will nerf some bizarre overpowered units such as stonehorns, thundertusks, teleporting stormcasts and stormfiends. As a side effect this can mean that tomb king is here for stay:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorPenguin Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 The abyssal terror rise is a bit much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, TerrorPenguin said: The abyssal terror rise is a bit much It's not a nerf in a "who won what tournament." It's a wholistic approach. It's good to see they aren't just targeting winning units, but everything doing nice fine tooning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 The Settra increase I agree with. He will still be usable, but not an auto-include. The Necro Knight, Royal Warsphinx and SSC prize increases seem excessive, I don't foresee these units being used much now. I haven't used the Necrosphinx since scgt points were the standard, so I don't know if he needed a prize increase. Likewise, I have not used the VLoAT or Kemmler, so I don't know if these increases were warranted. All in all I think this is good news, assuming they make similar changes to other op things (Sylvaneth in general, Warrior Brotherhood, etc...) At the very least, this is an indication that my TK army will still be playable in GH2, which is all I was really hoping for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razorfate Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Solaris said: The Settra increase I agree with. He will still be usable, but not an auto-include. The Necro Knight, Royal Warsphinx and SSC prize increases seem excessive, I don't foresee these units being used much now. I haven't used the Necrosphinx since scgt points was the standard, so I don't know if he needed a prize increase. Likewise, I have not used the VLoAT or Kemmler, so I don't know if these increases were warranted. All in all I think this is good news, assuming they make similar changes to other op things (Sylvaneth in general, Warrior Brotherhood, etc...) At the very least, this is an indication that my TK army will still be playable in GH2, which is all I was really hoping for 5 blood knights is 260 points with 15 wounds, can regenate 3 wounds per turn and wracks face in combat. 3 necropolis knights is too 15 wounds, can generate 5 wounds per turn, wrack face in combat and have way more syngery as they are skeletons. 240 points is fair imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minkster Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Yeah the knights needed to be more points as they were way to op in the fact you never saw a tk list with out at least 6 of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I'm not debating the fact that they needed a point increase, I'm just not sure 240 is the right prize for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Deeds Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I'm really curious as to the process that is used to adjust points. Are they relying on community feedback, data from tournament performances, additional playtesting, etc.? For the tombkings, an OOP line, their adjustments would presumably not be influenced by the desire to promote more sales. Of course the more cynical side of me could argue that maybe points increases are designed to discourage play of an OOP line so that the player base is more inclined to buy new product. GW HQ Big Boss: That Russ Veal needs to get off TK and get with the Stormcast. We can't have the top list be an OOP line! GW AoS Boss: Easy boss, we will just nerf his list by increasing the points. Watch him and everyone else drop TK's in droves and run to the stores. To make it look legit, we will make some selective increases that won't really change sales (maniacal life in background). GW HQ Big Boss: Brilliant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 19 minutes ago, Lord of Deeds said: I'm really curious as to the process that is used to adjust points. Are they relying on community feedback, data from tournament performances, additional playtesting, etc.? For the tombkings, an OOP line, their adjustments would presumably not be influenced by the desire to promote more sales. Of course the more cynical side of me could argue that maybe points increases are designed to discourage play of an OOP line so that the player base is more inclined to buy new product. GW HQ Big Boss: That Russ Veal needs to get off TK and get with the Stormcast. We can't have the top list be an OOP line! GW AoS Boss: Easy boss, we will just nerf his list by increasing the points. Watch him and everyone else drop TK's in droves and run to the stores. To make it look legit, we will make some selective increases that won't really change sales (maniacal life in background). GW HQ Big Boss: Brilliant! I don't think Russ Will play any more TK. He just thought they where underpriced and did it once to prove a point. I dont't know this, just the feeling I get listening to facehammer podcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Pike Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 11 minutes ago, Andreas said: I don't think Russ Will play any more TK. He just thought they where underpriced and did it once to prove a point. I dont't know this, just the feeling I get listening to facehammer podcast. From recording im pretty sure he just straight up said this army is super bent and I'm going to win the Masters with it. He took it and is now the UK Master, made the claim and saw it through lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradifer Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Undercosted units being adjusted so they aren't undercosted. This is what balance looks like when we have a simple number tweak (points cost). Here's to hoping they also adjust the other OP things (Sayl, Stormfiends, Bloodsecrtaror, Kurnoth Hunters, Durthu, free woods, Moungoul, Thundertusks, Warrior Brotherhood, Paladins/StarSoul Maces in general, Judicators, Hurricanum, Savage Arrowboys, Kunnun' Rukk) I think if these were slightly tuned we would see more variety among lists and closer games from those that aren't bringing "filth" style lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 19 minutes ago, Bradifer said: Undercosted units being adjusted so they aren't undercosted. This is what balance looks like when we have a simple number tweak (points cost). Here's to hoping they also adjust the other OP things (Sayl, Stormfiends, Bloodsecrtaror, Kurnoth Hunters, Durthu, free woods, Moungoul, Thundertusks, Warrior Brotherhood, Paladins/StarSoul Maces in general, Judicators, Hurricanum, Savage Arrowboys, Kunnun' Rukk) I think if these were slightly tuned we would see more variety among lists and closer games from those that aren't bringing "filth" style lists. I agree 100% with this, all things considered I think this is a good thing for our hobby. It shows a willingness from GW's side to change things and adjust. Even though I believe most changes were somewhat exaggerated, and they do directly hit the army that I have played for one and a half years, I am still happy to see that GW are ready to fix and finetune things as they go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarmofseals Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I have a lot of TK models, and I think the Settra price adjustment is fully justified. He'll still be good at that points value. I'm also OK with the SSC increase, although I don't really think it's necessary. The Necrosphinx and Royal Warsphinx price increases don't make sense to me unless behemoths are getting increases across the board. Necropolis Knights also deserve an increase imo but I think 240 is excessive. Based on current pointing in the game I think 200 would be very reasonable. If undercosted units (Kurnoths, Mourngul, Skyfires/Enlightened, Savage Arrowboys and the like) are getting an increase across the board then I could see going a bit higher on NK, but based on current pointing I think 200 fits as a "this is still slightly undercosted and designed to draw people to play this faction" type pointing. Basically all competitive factions have a unit (or more) like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradifer Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I respect your conservative opinion, but I don't think GW has any interest in making sure TK is right on the cusp of competitive play. Keeping their scrolls active and slightly overpriced actually seems fine for a compendium army. I would certainly hope undercosted units like (Kurnoths, Mourngul, Skyfires/Enlightened, Savage Arrowboys) would be recognized as obviously imbalanced (even slightly) and would be balanced, or at least pushed so they're Slightly undercosted as opposed to significantly undercosted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarmofseals Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 2 hours ago, Bradifer said: I respect your conservative opinion, but I don't think GW has any interest in making sure TK is right on the cusp of competitive play. I also respect your opinion, but disagree that GW has no interest. I think GW has an interest in all players who have invested in a faction feeling like they can field a list that is at least borderline competitive with that faction. It keeps older players in the hobby and also gives confidence to newer players that their investment of money and time (assembling and painting) isn't going to get relegated to second-class status whenever it suits GW financially. If I was a new player and found out that some armies had been dropped and now GW was nerfing them because they no longer sell the models, I'd be pretty concerned about that happening to my army of choice and I'd also feel pretty wary of GW as a company. GW already has a reputation of pushing sales of new stuff by making it OP and it absolutely turns people off that otherwise might be interested. As far as retaining old players goes -- while the big bucks is definitely in attracting new players, retaining old players is still great for business. How many veterans do you know that are still very active in the hobby and yet don't make ongoing new purchases? It's also extremely valuable to new players to have veterans around as mentors, particularly for the artistic side of the hobby. Learning to assemble and paint is really intimidating to a lot of potential new players. I absolutely agree that GW should be actively seeking to avoid having any compendium or forgeworld stuff be dominant in the metagame, as finding out that the most competitive stuff is either really hard to get or outright unavailable from GW would be a big turnoff for new players. Letting the old stuff remain at least reasonably competitive though is in everyone's best interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countmoore Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 It worries me slightly that the Mourngul makes so many undercosted lists on here. He's good no doubt about it but the prolific use is more to with how anaemic death is as a whole rather than his points being incorrect. As for the changes to TK I'd say the snakes could have gone higher (my suggestion was 260) in line with the blood knights who (fingers crossed) will now drop in line with the snakes. Sad about Kemmler though. He's made pretty much every list I've written for the last 18 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 52 minutes ago, Countmoore said: . Sad about Kemmler though. He's made pretty much every list I've written for the last 18 months. Will you still use him for 200pt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countmoore Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 18 minutes ago, Andreas said: Will you still use him for 200pt? Not too sure at 160 he was good. Effectively lose a unit of dire wolves/zombies to keep him which is a big ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fraser Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Wish mine would do that. I put it into a archmage on dragon and died! overall the points costs feel ever so slightly high, whether that is an intentional thing to reflect availability or just taking feedback from the likes of russ veal who knows. My first view on seeing the prices was toys out the pram, an hour later I was writing lists by last night I had 2 still pretty hard lists I was happy with. I also think hunk there are good TK lists that don't rely on snakes & sphinxes that are basically untouched by the changes so I'm happy I can still run them too. If I were to go unit by unit: settra - about right, he's a beast in combat, buffs the whole army and is fairly survivable. With 3+,5+,6+ royal warsphinx - not sure I'd take him at current price. Same as vamp lord on ZD who puts out the hurt, is a wizard and has healing abilities inbuilt. Or agk on TG/ZD for similar reasons but cheaper. Nercrosphinx - it's not a big bump, was good, still good necropolis knights - maybe right, maybe 20 too much. Compare them to retributors and they grow back but die slightly more easily to shooting and out out less MW damage but more regular damage. They're both slower & faster depending on 1 off teleport vs regular move round the board. Catapult. - didn't see any need to increase them. 1 shot on 4+,3+ rend 1, 4 damage. I guess gobbo bolt throwers are about the same but don't have the bravery or LoS ignoring ability but higher rend and potential damage spike. Instead I'd have increased the necrotect cost as a force multiplier, it's him stood between two that made them efficient, they've made it an all or nothing decision now to me. 140 fine, 160 a bit pricy unless you fully commit to them. the points increase means I drop the royal sphinx, that frees up most of the points leaving me about 120 pts over on the 12 snakes & 2 catapults list of the masters. Which is 1 character so guess that character won't be a huge miss and can still run the list, or drop a catapult. Hurts for 3 places of power but list still good at everything else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Pike Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 4 hours ago, Countmoore said: Sad about Kemmler though. He's made pretty much every list I've written for the last 18 months. This says he was probably under-costed if he was almost auto include for 18 months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countmoore Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 He was probably about right. Moving more into FEC it's currently (at 160) a tough decision between him a varghulf for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinros Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 23 hours ago, Razorfate said: 5 blood knights is 260 points with 15 wounds, can regenate 3 wounds per turn and wracks face in combat. 3 necropolis knights is too 15 wounds, can generate 5 wounds per turn, wrack face in combat and have way more syngery as they are skeletons. 240 points is fair imo. Don't forget they have to charge first to wrack face as well. I wish the rest of death had synergy and nice spells to bring back units like the old tomb kings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ao_Death Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 10 hours ago, Countmoore said: It worries me slightly that the Mourngul makes so many undercosted lists on here. He's good no doubt about it but the prolific use is more to with how anaemic death is as a whole rather than his points being incorrect. Is that true though? Let's say we plop the Mourngul into another faction. Do people still run two for 800pt? My gut says yes which to me indicates its too cheap, though I could be wrong. I do agree that the faction needs work but under pointing strong units doesn't fix that. It just breeds spammy lists. (I.e. necro knights, stonehorns etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 On 08/02/2017 at 9:35 AM, xking said: Why would behemoths need to get point increases across the board? A Stardrake is like 600 points and in every game I have seen, A Stardrake that comes in contact with a Necrosphinx always dies. Uh… yes? The Stardrake is a tank, and the Necrosphinx is a very specialised anti-tank. It's rock-paper-scissors. Send both models against a goblin horde army and see which comes out better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The Mourngul is so self-sufficient and debuffs the enemy so hard that you could plop it into almost any list and it would improve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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