'Competitive' Disciples of Tzeentch

[Nico]

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Not one drop but replenishing horrors each hero phase and the chance to split into under strength units for them too could be hard to deal with. Plus 8 wizards and skyfires could be cool.

It's a good basis of an army. 

To single drop or not?

I'm moving away from building a single drop army for DoT as I find it too limiting (and it's not as important as it is for Sylvaneth and traditional Stormcast). DoT can bunker very well (at least against melee alpha strikes). It also seems more fun to have half Daemons and half Tzaangors (and maybe some Acos) - aesthetics points massively towards having a mixture.

Summoned Wizards and Lore Spells

It's worth noting that a summoned LoC or Herald is entitled to pick a Lore spell (as pointed out by @Tom Loyn and tweeted about - which does actually seem to be the case reading the rules - perhaps surprisingly - bear in mind that neither Sylvaneth nor Death can summon any Wizards to my knowledge - Seraphon can - so the point has never arisen previously for an army with a Lore). There's a lot of reason to take a summoning pool, as that way that wizard is unkillable (as off the table) and can be summoned on, cast a spell or two and then make a hasty retreat in the movement phase afterwards. You do lose the right to give that summoned Wizard an artefact or command trait on the other hand.

Probably the best way to do so would be to take the Conflagration (minimum sized with 6 Exalted Flamers), stick a Gaunt Summoner or two into the battalion to give you a choice of two Lore of Fate spells; and then summon on a load of toys. I may have bought 5 more Flaming Chariots on Monday!

Split

I note that you don't have a summoning pool, so arguably this could be academic for you. What worries me about Pink Horrors in general would be people taking a hyper-literal approach to the Split rule (as discussed several pages above). You might want to print out some of the pages of discussion there and simply refer to them (to justify the rule being (a) not mandatory; and (b) paying 50 points for X blues with the right to top up to 10 blues but no more). This can be better than having a 4 minute debate during the game.

You could live with (a) only or (b) only (although it would still be a big nerf), but if you don't have either (a) or (b), then you would have to consider ensuring that you don't have a summoning pool at all, since otherwise your opponent could fire a handful of shots at your Pinks (with the goal of killing exactly one per phase) and drain the summoning pool.

100 Points of Summoning Pool at least?

Generally I would always try to take at least 100 points as a summoning pool (since this could be the Balewind vortex or 10 Plaguebearers for sticking on an objective etc.) unless it's vital for a combo that you use the full 2,000 points.

[Tom_bridges]

My thoughts were to use the multitudinous host ability to just RE inforce units after they have taken casualties not summon new units. Hence no cost. This can also be used if you run the blue horrors and pink horrors within 6 "(I think) for the splits as not going over the starting strength of the unit obviously.

That right?

[Eldercaveman]

What does it mean when you guys say 'one drop'? This game is so alien to me coming from 40k/8th and 9th ed fantasy.  

[Arkiham]

Drop your entire army in one go, as you have it all under a battalion.

[Malakithe]

6 hours ago, Nico said:

It's a good basis of an army. 

To single drop or not?

I'm moving away from building a single drop army for DoT as I find it too limiting (and it's not as important as it is for Sylvaneth and traditional Stormcast). DoT can bunker very well (at least against melee alpha strikes). It also seems more fun to have half Daemons and half Tzaangors (and maybe some Acos) - aesthetics points massively towards having a mixture.

This for me...I really want to find a way to bring lots of Tzaangors into a mixed list. Maybe a block of 20 with a dedicated Shaman then add in some daemon battalion. 

[Malakithe]

My version of a mixed list...

[Nightgaunt]

In units of 20 Tzaangors, how do you like to spread out the weapon options?

[AverageBoss]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

My version of a mixed list...

You could change one unit of Brimstones to Blues. Would save you $35 as well.

[Malakithe]

Oh yeah lol true true 

[Arkiham]

I can't help but look at our tzeentch lists we've spent ages constructing and seeing them all just dismantled by even poorly constructed stormcast lists.

 

How can we be competitive when we struggle against a common army?

[Goodwin]

Is it the deepstriking Stormcast that are the problem?  If so maybe using some of those brime or blue for bubble wrap?  I actually haven't played against them yet but I'm going to my first tournament this year so maybe then I'll get smashed by Sigmar's boys.

[Arkiham]

Kinda, even then. How do you kill something like this with the staunch defender trait.

That's 2+ saves reroll 1s in shooting and in combat other than when they charge, which when they do charge they do triple the damage...

 

it doesn't matter what else is in the list as this will smash your face lol 

[Nico]

 

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My thoughts were to use the multitudinous host ability to just RE inforce units after they have taken casualties not summon new units. Hence no cost. This can also be used if you run the blue horrors and pink horrors within 6 "(I think) for the splits as not going over the starting strength of the unit obviously.

That right?

 

Yes, this can work in principle. However, if you do have a summoning pool, then beware the risks relating to the Split rule.

It doesn't work so well against Pew Pew, where they will shoot the Pinks first, then the Blues, then the Brimstones.

[Malakithe]

33 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Kinda, even then. How do you kill something like this with the staunch defender trait.

That's 2+ saves reroll 1s in shooting and in combat other than when they charge, which when they do charge they do triple the damage...

 

it doesn't matter what else is in the list as this will smash your face lol 

Chaff units now more then ever against them. And how about you don't charge the buffed guys? 

Also they can have all the armor they want. We have a crazy high spell based MW output. Just blow up them up first.

[Nico]

 

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Kinda, even then. How do you kill something like this with the staunch defender trait.

That's 2+ saves reroll 1s in shooting and in combat other than when they charge, which when they do charge they do triple the damage...

 

That trait did jump out at me. However, it's quite an interesting match up. Old school Stormcast lists might actually suck against DoT, if they try to bludgeon their way though our extremely cheap chaff.

What's more worrying is New-School massed pew pew Stormcast - since shooting is inherently better than magic in terms of threat range.

One possible solution to any joker with an immense save is to summon a Herald of Tzeentch 18" away who (it seems) is still a Daemon Wizard in a Tzeentch Army and so entitled to a Lore Spell of your choice on being summoned (but not an artefact). If you burn your Destiny Dice turn one, then you could then use the 3 D6 cast to lob Pink Fire of Tzeentch into the target (burn another Destiny Dice for 5 or 6 mortal wounds if you have one), then this triggers another cast (provided the cast roll is 9 or more), so you lob in Bolt of Tzeentch (the Lore Spell - for another 4 mortal wounds (say)) and trigger another cast on a 9, which could be Arcane Bolt (for 2 more mortal wounds, by expending a "3" Destiny Dice), then you could cast Mystic Shield (if there was a reason to do so).   

They have a soft counter in turn - the Hallowed Knights to take off a third of your offensive spells. Not to mention that they do have some good unbinding options now.

Also watch the Puppies! Gryph Hounds could wreck this or limit where you could reach.

[Arkiham]

That's if they do rule it how we feel it should be, where we can dictate the mortal wounds, if they don't then d6 is kinda unreliable. But yeah mortals are handy, 

 

[Nico]

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This for me...I really want to find a way to bring lots of Tzaangors into a mixed list. Maybe a block of 20 with a dedicated Shaman then add in some daemon battalion. 

This might be the direction I go in. 

I'm determined to give the Exalted Flamers a try within The Eternal Conflagration. Then add Tzaangor or my existing mortal units from my Fatesworn Warband (all painted - used this back in April 2016).

 

[Nico]

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That's if they do rule it how we feel it should be, where we can dictate the mortal wounds, if they don't then d6 is kinda unreliable. But yeah mortals are handy, 

I was thinking about this again in the context of our friend the Stonelord. @Mirage8112

Let's say that some Bloodletters give him a smacking. 

The Stonelord halves "damage inflicted" after "all of the attacks made by the attacking unit have been carried out." The Destruction FAQ.

Now, if the Bloodletters do say 11 Mortal wounds on the hit rolls and 5 regular wounds from the attacks, then there are two possibilities:  

(1) Mortal wounds are damage just like regular wounds (they just aren't subject to saves and sometimes you don't need to do the wound rolls)

In this case, the unit of Bloodletters has done 16 damage (11+5) after all of the unit's attacks have been carried out, which halves down to 8 damage total.

(2) Mortal wounds are not damage (are distinct from regular wounds)

In this case, the mortal wounds would not be aggregated with the attacks for the halving purposes (as they are not "damage inflicted"). Effectively, this would be like impact hits or a spell that did 11 mortal wounds (those other examples aren't aggregated because they aren't attacks - they are bespoke rules which case mortal wounds).

Hence, you would have 11 mortal wounds, which would halve down to 6 damage; and 5 regular wounds, which would have down to 3 wounds. This would result in 9 damage total.  

While the difference in the overall outcome isn't huge (although it can be if it means that the Stonelord lives instead of dying and being healed 6 wounds back next turn by his 3 Husktusk buddies) - it hopefully illustrates the point.

As I said elsewhere, originally I thought that mortal wounds were more "special" and distinct from regular wounds. Looking at the evolution of the rules and the FAQ, I now think that GW distinguish them as little as possible (which is probably simpler, again as this example shows).

This points in the same direction of a Damage roll including D6 mortal wounds.

 

[Malakithe]

3 hours ago, Nico said:

 

That trait did jump out at me. However, it's quite an interesting match up. Old school Stormcast lists might actually suck against DoT, if they try to bludgeon their way though our extremely cheap chaff.

What's more worrying is New-School massed pew pew Stormcast - since shooting is inherently better than magic in terms of threat range.

One possible solution to any joker with an immense save is to summon a Herald of Tzeentch 18" away who (it seems) is still a Daemon Wizard in a Tzeentch Army and so entitled to a Lore Spell of your choice on being summoned (but not an artefact). If you burn your Destiny Dice turn one, then you could then use the 3 D6 cast to lob Pink Fire of Tzeentch into the target (burn another Destiny Dice for 5 or 6 mortal wounds if you have one), then this triggers another cast (provided the cast roll is 9 or more), so you lob in Bolt of Tzeentch (the Lore Spell - for another 4 mortal wounds (say)) and trigger another cast on a 9, which could be Arcane Bolt (for 2 more mortal wounds, by expending a "3" Destiny Dice), then you could cast Mystic Shield (if there was a reason to do so).   

They have a soft counter in turn - the Hallowed Knights to take off a third of your offensive spells. Not to mention that they do have some good unbinding options now.

Also watch the Puppies! Gryph Hounds could wreck this or limit where you could reach.

Yeah...Gryph-Hounds can sit a good distance away. Raptors are nearly exact to Jezzails...but with anti-charge, overwatch, and interceptor...so yeah summoning wouldn't work on them at all. Their birds get a free move in the enemy charge phase to straight up body block. Then you have the pups that give another interceptor attack...

They can't super alpha strike now but make up for that with 6d6" teleports and never ending vanishing.

The Veridant can unbind and now people take a Relictor with the unbind artefact too...****** i meant to have a solution to them lol

[TrexPushups]

Yeah...Gryph-Hounds can sit a good distance away. Raptors are nearly exact to Jezzails...but with anti-charge, overwatch, and interceptor...so yeah summoning wouldn't work on them at all. Their birds get a free move in the enemy charge phase to straight up body block. Then you have the pups that give another interceptor attack...
They can't super alpha strike now but make up for that with 6d6" teleports and never ending vanishing.
The Veridant can unbind and now people take a Relictor with the unbind artefact too...****** i meant to have a solution to them lol

The Tzaangors mortal wounds banner strolling to within 18 inches of characters etc seems like a good way to deploy mortal wounds on problem units.

Can't be unbound and the Tzaanazgors are good at being choppy.


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[Malakithe]

True. My last list I posted it think is a good 'solution' to stormcasts new tricks....mixing blocks of 20 Tzaangors with a chaff filled Changehost to block all incoming could work. A buffed LoC will be able to smash a lot of them apart too. 

[Malakithe]

I may revise my list to go 30 Tzaangors in a Tzaangor Covens + Changehost. Let's see if that will fit...

[Goodwin]

For 1.5k Tournament!

I'm thinking of taking a Curseling as the general with the increased Unbind and Balewind.  Is this as snazy as I hope?  I was also considering the Windthief thing so Turn 1 he can pop it in the Hero phase, move up 10 inches or so.  Hopefully cast Balewind (could use DD for it if I wanna be sure, but aren't there a few armies that have 'dispel scrolls?').  Then be a real annoyance.  Ofcourse, if the army was heavy shooty then maybe I'd skip that.

Otherwise, with a Tzaangor heavy collection should I go for the Boundless Mutation Ogroid, or the +2 Arcanite Bravery Ogroid?

I'm thinking of either running Tzaangor coven and going to fight stuff, or playing with more wizards/Skyfires and being dodgy.  It'll be my first tournament so I'm sure I'll fail either way?

[Malakithe]

13 hours ago, Nico said:

This might be the direction I go in. 

I'm determined to give the Exalted Flamers a try within The Eternal Conflagration. Then add Tzaangor or my existing mortal units from my Fatesworn Warband (all painted - used this back in April 2016).

 

What's your plan with The Eternal Conflagration? I'm still not 100% on the dodgy wording of that battalion. I had am plan to use Burning Chariots for very extended spell casting but I'm not sure if that's even allowed now.

[Malakithe]

Question...what battalions are actually competitive? My plan is to do a full mixed force. Tzaangors, Shaman, maybe Ogroid, then daemons. 

So what battalions could work? The Changehost is the most obvious. What else? I'm sure others are coming to realize DoT's true power will come from mixed lists.