Solvanic Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Hi guys, After a lot of reading and research I have come up with this list to try to make my big Archaon viable. Tzeench gives him some nice advantages, mainly getting his spell of choice from either lore as well as using destiny dice (6s are really good on Slayer of Kings). All 10 units are Tzeench and Mortal, so they will all benefit from the 4 Fatemaster's command abilities. Having 4 fatemasters mean my chances of getting the lower numbers to reroll very significant (1-4 are way better than 5-6). In an ideal situation every model could reroll 1s,2s,3s and 4s on hits, wounds, charges, armor saves, archaons # of attacks and D6 damage! Every unit but Archaon takes full advantage of the (-) to (-1) rend from the formation. This is a VERY fast army (Fatemasters move 16, Archaon 12, Gorebeasts 8). Now where I need help. Suggestions! I am heavily considering running only 3 fatemasters, and using those points for more bodies? Would have to replace with another mortal Tzeench unit because I am at the minimum for the fatesworn battalion. I am also very interested in trying to run arcanite cabal as well, but I am fairly sure units cannot be part of more than 1 formation? Any other thoughts also appreciated LeadersFatemaster (140)Fatemaster (140)Fatemaster (140)Fatemaster (140)Archaon (700)- GeneralBattleline10 x Chaos Warriors (180)- Halberd & Shield10 x Chaos Warriors (180)- Halberd & Shield10 x Chaos Marauders (60)Units1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)BattalionsFatesworn Warband (120)Total: 2000/2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solvanic Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 Alternative list (although I would have to buy more chariots) that includes the cabal formation! This gives me 3 more spells of Tzeench which I feel like might be worth it, although all the fatesworn lose their rend. What do you all think? LeadersFatemaster (140)Fatemaster (140)Fatemaster (140)Archaon (700)- GeneralBattleline10 x Chaos Marauders (60)10 x Chaos Marauders (60)10 x Chaos Marauders (60)10 x Chaos Marauders (60)10 x Chaos Marauders (60)Units1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)BattalionsArcanite Cabal (50)Fatesworn Warband (120) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Tbh. Archaon is too expensive at anything less than 3000 points. Much more suited to 4-5k games than 2k. He leaves your army too vulnerable to dying and just leaving him alone to them be swarmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowgra Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 What about something like this?: Archaon 700 Fatemaster 140 Fatemaster 140 Gaunt summoner 100 Chaos lord on daemonic mount tz mark 140 10 marauder tz mark 60 10 marauder tz mark 60 10 warrior, hand and shield, tz mark 180 10 warrior same as above 180 3 gorebeast chariots, tz mark, great weapon 300 2000 points, u have a very strong deathstar, gorebeasts with +1 to hit and -1 rend are brutal. Also destiny dice could help with charge rolls, making they explode attack more frequently. I thinm gaunt summoner is the strongest mage for 100 point. Finally you have slightly more bodies and meatshields for ur centerpieces. It's just a thrown idea, but i think it can be pretty effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solvanic Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 And a third list without the fatesworn warband! LeadersFatemaster (140)Fatemaster (140)Fatemaster (140)Fatemaster (140)Fatemaster (140)Archaon (700)- GeneralBattleline10 x Tzaangors (180)10 x Tzaangors (180)10 x Tzaangors (180)UnitsBattalionsArcanite Cabal (50)Total: 1990/2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowgra Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Anyway i also consider archaon as too less effective for 2k, what a shame for such a beautiful model. Also varanguard are so beautiful and so bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solvanic Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Arkiham said: Tbh. Archaon is too expensive at anything less than 3000 points. Much more suited to 4-5k games than 2k. He leaves your army too vulnerable to dying and just leaving him alone to them be swarmed. You think Archaon will be too easy to kill? Even with all of his rerolls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowgra Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Solvanic said: You think Archaon will be too easy to kill? Even with all of his rerolls? The rest of the army is too easy to kill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solvanic Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 9 minutes ago, shadowgra said: What about something like this?: Archaon 700 Fatemaster 140 Fatemaster 140 Gaunt summoner 100 Chaos lord on daemonic mount tz mark 140 10 marauder tz mark 60 10 marauder tz mark 60 10 warrior, hand and shield, tz mark 180 10 warrior same as above 180 3 gorebeast chariots, tz mark, great weapon 300 2000 points, u have a very strong deathstar, gorebeasts with +1 to hit and -1 rend are brutal. Also destiny dice could help with charge rolls, making they explode attack more frequently. I thinm gaunt summoner is the strongest mage for 100 point. Finally you have slightly more bodies and meatshields for ur centerpieces. It's just a thrown idea, but i think it can be pretty effective. I like this list, but I dont think Archaon is worth taking with only 2 fatesworn, I think its gotta be at least 3. Why take the lord on daemonic mount? His command ability doesnt seem like it will be very useful unless you are going to group the gorebeasts? In which case they are far less tactically useful in my opinion. Also the Marauders and gorebeasts are not nearly as effective without the fatesworn battalion which I dont think you have included here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Are you including the battalion cost into the lists ? It's like 120 isn't it ? An you can't use traits with archaon as general, and non named heroes can only use items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowgra Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Wooooops mb, make 1 warrior unit a marauder and there u have the points. Lord helps gorebeast to be killy I will be sincere, i don't like fatemasters at all, i think that for these points u can take way more useful things, like sorcerer, gaunt, for 20 points more u have ogroid. I understand that they kinda work well with archaon, but i still don't like them (i mean, they do little damage) they save well, but what 's the point in taking them? How are u gonna match up against a skaven/sayl list? U just get blown up. The good thing into taking the lord is that u can count on another unit in order to do damage, the gorebeasts, which can deal an impressive amount of damage. Archaon isn't enough to win the game, simply because u bringing more heroes to make it worth, u make the whole army squishier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solvanic Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 Just now, Arkiham said: Are you including the battalion cost into the lists ? It's like 120 isn't it ? An you can't use traits with archaon as general, and non named heroes for items. Ya the costs of the battalions are right there in the posts. I know Archaon cant use traits but the Fatemasters can still use items I am pretty sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Yeah, I had to edit that as I missed some words, I thought it but didn't type it lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solvanic Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 minute ago, shadowgra said: Wooooops mb, make 1 warrior unit a marauder and there u have the points. Lord helps gorebeast to be killy I will be sincere, i don't like fatemasters at all, i think that for these points u can take way more useful things, like sorcerer, gaunt, for 20 points more u have ogroid. I understand that they kinda work well with archaon, but i still don't like them (i mean, they do little damage) they save well, but what 's the point in taking them? How are u gonna match up against a skaven/sayl list? U just get blown up. The good thing into taking the lord is that u can count on another unit in order to do damage, the gorebeasts, which can deal an impressive amount of damage. Archaon isn't enough to win the game, simply because u bringing more heroes to make it worth, u make the whole army squishier In the first list the fatesworn will all have rend-1 to both attacks which will help their killiness a bit. I also think all the rerolls will mean almost everything will be rerolling all failed armor saves. The reason I am taking fatesworns is to take advantage of Archaon. The rerolls are hard to mathammer but with 4 fatesworn its fair to assume everyone will reroll 3/4s of their saves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 There's definitely scope for a list here. However spamming an overpriced hero (the Fatemaster) who isn't a wizard (and Fatesworn doesn't make him a wizard) is unlikely to be the answer. As much of a big part of Archaon's appeal is his command ability spam, the fact that he is a Tzeentch Mortal and Daemon allows him to take (I believe) a choice of either a Lore of Fate or Lore of Change spell (i.e. not both). Many of these are amazing with Archaon as the Caster (as is someone else casting Shield of Fate or the spell that grants +1 attack to one weapon on him). Due to the rule of one, you are not going to benefit much from the theoretical arcane bolt spam. I would fill the Battalion with cheaper heroes a few units of Marauders and a unit of Warriors (18 as various people object to deploying a unit of 9 and I cannot be bothered to have the highly complicated argument every game). You need bodies to make up for the point sink that is Archaon to be competive in the Battleplans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solvanic Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, Nico said: There's definitely scope for a list here. However spamming an overpriced hero (the Fatemaster) is unlikely to be the answer. As much of a big part of Archaon's appeal is his command ability spam, the fact that he is a Tzeentch Mortal and Daemon allows him to take (I believe) a choice of either a Lore of Fate or Lore of Change spell (i.e. not both). Many of these are amazing with Archaon as the Caster (as is someone else casting Shield of Fate on him). Due to the rule of one, you are not going to benefit from the theoretical arcane bolt spam. I would fill the Battalion with cheaper heroes a few units of Marauders and a unit of Warriors (18 as various people object to deploying a unit of 9 and I cannot be bothered to have the highly complicated argument every game). You need bodies to make up for the point sink that is Archaon to be competive in the Battleplans. Thanks for the response! I'm not sure Archaon's cost can be justified if you're not using his command ability? What heroes would you recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I just mean use one of them and maybe a Lord on Daemonic mount or even a Lord of Chaos (gives another reroll saves of one buff), rather than using 4 140 point heroes. What you want are wizards (or you can summon a LoC...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Let's put it this way. Mine is coming out of the box it has been in for about a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Ignore this I'll ask in the tzeentch thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyPunk Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I've been considering something similar to what Nico's been saying - potentially using a few command abilities with Archaon, but mostly getting some mileage out of him through the spells. Leaders Archaon (700) - General Chaos Lord On Daemonic Mount (140) Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (120) Fatemaster (140) Battleline 10 x Chaos Warriors (180) - Hand Weapon & Shield 10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140) 10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140) Units 10 x Chaos Knights (400) - Chaos Glaives Total: 1960/2000 Archaon would have the spell to give himself +1 to hit and wound (I imagine that works with destiny dice?), another could potentially have the spell to give slayer of kings an extra attack. Fatemaster and lord can use their command abilities and follow the big block of knights who are a huge tarpit, and the gaunt summoner (on disc for extra fluffiness) could follow Archaon around. Not a huge amount of models or wounds - and no ranged - so it wouldn't be super competitive but could be kind of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solvanic Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 9 hours ago, FunkyPunk said: I've been considering something similar to what Nico's been saying - potentially using a few command abilities with Archaon, but mostly getting some mileage out of him through the spells. Leaders Archaon (700) - General Chaos Lord On Daemonic Mount (140) Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (120) Fatemaster (140) Battleline 10 x Chaos Warriors (180) - Hand Weapon & Shield 10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140) 10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140) Units 10 x Chaos Knights (400) - Chaos Glaives Total: 1960/2000 Archaon would have the spell to give himself +1 to hit and wound (I imagine that works with destiny dice?), another could potentially have the spell to give slayer of kings an extra attack. Fatemaster and lord can use their command abilities and follow the big block of knights who are a huge tarpit, and the gaunt summoner (on disc for extra fluffiness) could follow Archaon around. Not a huge amount of models or wounds - and no ranged - so it wouldn't be super competitive but could be kind of fun. +1 to hit and wound is definitely the way to go I think, as it makes slayer of kings even more dangerous. I really appreciate your and @Nico, @shadowgra advice to not overdo the fatemaster. What do you all think of this list? LeadersArchaon (700)- GeneralFatemaster (140) Gaunt Summoner (100) (probably glimpse of future or Arcane transformation ?)Fatemaster (140)Battleline10 x Chaos Warriors (180)- Halberd & Shield10 x Chaos Warriors (180)- Halberd & Shield10 x Chaos Warriors (180)- Halberd & Shield10 x Chaos Marauders (60)Units1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)BattalionsFatesworn Warband (120) (Gives -1 rend to basically all weapons except a few of Archaon's, I think this is pretty huge for the viability of all the units)Total: 2000/2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowgra Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Like it more than the other lists. Although i still think that a list like that is really squishy, you have less than 50 bodies, and even if warriors have 5++ save, they won't do much in terms of offensive. What about dropping mortals and fatesworn and go really heavy on magic? Loc can be pretty good since he boosts casting rolls, plus archaon throws in 2 spells each turn. In the end magic has more offensive power than any mortal list u will ever make as tzeentch. I would go something like: archaon, loc, gaunt, some pink horrors as a core. Then u can fill the remaining points with basically everything u need: skyfires, tzaangors, warriors (?), marauder as chaff, sayl, stormfiends too. The benefits of going magic heavy is that multiple units in your army are big threaths, not only archaon. Also a lord of chaos can help him to survive more, with rerolling save of 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Quote LeadersArchaon (700)- GeneralFatemaster (140) Gaunt Summoner (100) (probably glimpse of future or Arcane transformation ?)Fatemaster (140)Battleline10 x Chaos Warriors (180)- Halberd & Shield10 x Chaos Warriors (180)- Halberd & Shield10 x Chaos Warriors (180)- Halberd & Shield10 x Chaos Marauders (60)Units1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)BattalionsFatesworn Warband (120) (Gives -1 rend to basically all weapons except a few of Archaon's, I think this is pretty huge for the viability of all the units)Total: 2000/2000 Looking better. I don't see the value of Gorebeast Chariots personally (1 model for objective purposes). As you may not be able to deploy units of Warriors as 9 models (minimum unit size being stuck on a totem, not worth the argument every second game) - I would buff up at least one unit of Warriors to 20 (18 models) - Halberds are fine. Tick the 10 total units with Marauders and if you can nudge up the Gaunt Summoner to the one with the familiars (+1 cast as I recall) for 20 points and consider a summoning pool of 100 (for the Balewind Vortex so you have a partial counter to Kunning Rukk Arrer Boyz). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesper77 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Have you tried the 320p archaon on horse. He also has the same abbilities as the 700p guy just not the dragon. I think hes kinda solid anyway and still get to use his sword against enemies. I know its not optimal but it frees up alot of points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solvanic Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 On 1/31/2017 at 11:38 AM, Jesper77 said: Have you tried the 320p archaon on horse. He also has the same abbilities as the 700p guy just not the dragon. I think hes kinda solid anyway and still get to use his sword against enemies. I know its not optimal but it frees up alot of points ya but I have the big one painted up really well and he's awesome so I'm trying to make a list with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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