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"Old" Elite Infantry overpriced?


Siegfried VII

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So I've been looking to make an aelven army since the Spire of Dawn got released and as I checked the Swordmasters, I went and had a look to similar units in the Order Grand Alliance Book. 

It seems to me that 20pts for a 1 wound model is a bit expensive. Apart from the Phoenix Guard (who make it up with their ward save) most old elite infantry units tend to be on the expensive side in my opinion directly affecting their usefulness.

So guys, I would like to hear your thoughts on this... :)

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1 minute ago, Siegfried VII said:

So I've been looking to make an aelven army since the Spire of Dawn got released and as I checked the Swordmasters, I went and had a look to similar units in the Order Grand Alliance Book. 

It seems to me that 20pts for a 1 wound model is a bit expensive. Apart from the Phoenix Guard (who make it up with their ward save) most old elite infantry units tend to be on the expensive side in my opinion directly affecting their usefulness.

So guys, I would like to hear your thoughts on this... :)

Actually Swordmaster is not terribly overpriced. It's counter piece in SE is protector, which is 50% tougher. On damage output trust me with Skywarden totem Swordmaster is better than protector even against most monsters. Also Swordmaster has way better mobility that they can normally reach enemy at 13~15 inch.  

 

It is a faster but less durable version of protector which actually can perform well if used wisely.

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I tend to agree that as a general rule, the older elite infantry are a bit expensive. I also think that it could, in part, be made up for with the better synergy available to them. Like Aeonotakist said, if you throw the totem at swordmasters they get pretty sweet, and Dispossessed Hammerers are also 20pts per model and have 4" move, and no special combat abilities. However, in a 2000pt game, it would be quite possible to see them doing 4 attacks each, at 2+ to hit, rerolling 1s, 2+ to wound, rerolling 1s, and -3 or -4 rend, with the all the buffs available to Dispossessed.

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15 hours ago, Volund said:

I tend to agree that as a general rule, the older elite infantry are a bit expensive. I also think that it could, in part, be made up for with the better synergy available to them. Like Aeonotakist said, if you throw the totem at swordmasters they get pretty sweet, and Dispossessed Hammerers are also 20pts per model and have 4" move, and no special combat abilities. However, in a 2000pt game, it would be quite possible to see them doing 4 attacks each, at 2+ to hit, rerolling 1s, 2+ to wound, rerolling 1s, and -3 or -4 rend, with the all the buffs available to Dispossessed.

I think some are overpriced I'm a dispossessed player and feel hammerers and drakes are way to expensive. Yes they "can" have good synergy but to be honest so can anything and they are just way cheaper. Its like I can take a unit of hammeres 10 strong for 200 point or a unit of quarrelers 30 strong 360 points its 160 point different for a unit that can do much more and has good synergy.

There are things in AOS that if your going the competitive route are just not worth taking and sadly some oft he cool stuff feel this pain on my army.

Drakes are 220 points for 10, 1 wound models 4+ save 16" range the archers for storm cast are almost similar but are battle line. Yes you only get 5 but for 160 points that can shoot 24", have 2 wounds a piece and shoot 2 times at rend 1 hitting on 3's wounding on 3's    

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No let's compair 

 

5 Protectors = 15 wounds 4+  armor 7 bravery 15 attacks hit 3s wound 3s -1 rend. D6 to monsters on a 6 roll 4" move

10 swordmasters= 10 wounds 4+ armor reroll against shooting 20 attacks hit on 3s wound on 3s reroll 1s 7 bravery -1 rend 6"move

Other then 5 more wounds swordmasters come out on top.

Protectors have a slight advantage with defense where swordmasters have one with offense. Looks about right to me.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Denneysman said:

No let's compair 

 

5 Protectors = 15 wounds 4+  armor 7 bravery 15 attacks hit 3s wound 3s -1 rend. D6 to monsters on a 6 roll 4" move

10 swordmasters= 10 wounds 4+ armor reroll against shooting 20 attacks hit on 3s wound on 3s reroll 1s 7 bravery -1 rend 6"move

Other then 5 more wounds swordmasters come out on top.

Protectors have a slight advantage with defense where swordmasters have one with offense. Looks about right to me.

 

 

I guess it depends on which older unit you take.

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48 minutes ago, Denneysman said:

No let's compair 

 

5 Protectors = 15 wounds 4+  armor 7 bravery 15 attacks hit 3s wound 3s -1 rend. D6 to monsters on a 6 roll 4" move

10 swordmasters= 10 wounds 4+ armor reroll against shooting 20 attacks hit on 3s wound on 3s reroll 1s 7 bravery -1 rend 6"move

Other then 5 more wounds swordmasters come out on top.

Protectors have a slight advantage with defense where swordmasters have one with offense. Looks about right to me.

 

 

Highly doubtful you get all 20 swordmasters to attack in the same round unless its against a very large unit (or hero like stardrake with its large base).

 

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That maybe true but at that same time sword Masters have half the size base size can fit twice as much and in a battle plan scenario ten swordmasters can claim a objective over 5 protector.

Of the 4 different great sword units only empire great swords seem a bit over priced. 

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2 minutes ago, jobume said:

I agree with the greatswords being overpriced. I would say the Wildwood Rangers are pretty overpriced too.

No WRR are worth their points if you use them for what they are made for. It's a limited roll so you just shouldn't bring a lot of them. I think 10 of them in a wanderers list will never be a really wrong choice (though of course other stuff can be better depending on what you already have and depending on synergies). Then again 20 or more of them will hardly ever be really usefull.

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59 minutes ago, Denneysman said:

That maybe true but at that same time sword Masters have half the size base size can fit twice as much and in a battle plan scenario ten swordmasters can claim a objective over 5 protector.

Of the 4 different great sword units only empire great swords seem a bit over priced. 

Good point about base size. 

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I think a big part of any unit's valuation in terms of points relates directly to their potential buffs from within their grand alliance. 

On their own, they might not be worth 20 points, but let's throw some buffs on them: 

  • +1 hit from Hurricanum
  • +1 Save from Mystic Shield
  • Rerolling saves & causing mortal wounds on 5 or 6 from Sisters of the Thorn

    It's a common strategy in game design to balance units against other units with all of the available buffs on them, expecting that some players are looking to take advantage of them. 
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3 hours ago, Jamopower said:

But those same buffs are available to each unit in the grand alliance (and in case of Mystic shield, in the whole game). Also I would say that the newer units have better synergy than especially the elves with their million subfactions.

I agree, newer units have better synergy

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Yes and no a lot of older units get big buffs with standards and musicians which are free. while say Stormcast have to take a hero to get the same buff that might end up out of range. The combos tome kings and britts can bring to the table are nasty. Now if you choose to play one of those pure tiny sub-factions that on you cause though you can take them no one in their right mind would think they are made for that. They are made for mixxing and matching.

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I don't think you can take buffs into account for points. Every army can get buffs so points should be based on the unit itself imo. 

 I think over all GW make the GHB for those that wanted a point system cause lets be honest before that the game was not worth playing. Are they balanced Id say probably not. As newer armies/books come out I think we see a more balancing act but I think GW just wanted to rush out a point system as they didn't want to lose business.

What would be nice is a re-vamping of points for some units or adding new abilities to make certain units worth their point cost.

Like hammerers and drakes who are just to expensive for what they "can" do

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On 20/01/2017 at 3:57 AM, chord said:

Highly doubtful you get all 20 swordmasters to attack in the same round unless its against a very large unit (or hero like stardrake with its large base).

 

Swordmasters have 2 attacks each, you only need to get 10 in contact to get your 20 attacks for the comparison against the 5 Protectors.

I've never had much trouble getting my elite infantry in 10's mostly into base contact with the enemy.

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I think the strength with swordmasters too is the fact that they techically can attack in 2 'ranks' too.  3+ rerollable with mystic shield against ranged is kind of amazing too allowing them to actually make combat. 3+ rerolling 1's to hit  and 2+ to woundwith penant from skywarden and dawnspire formation means these guys hit quite hard.  That being said I've never actually used them in-game and think they could probably do with a point drop given they can't teleport in like stormcast.

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In my opinion it's the 20pts - 1wound that gives me a pause to think.

 

Liberators or Chaos Warriors while not hitting as hard have 2 wounds each, it's double the resillience!!

I get the elven "fragile" theme but at least they should be 18 or 17 points each... that imo at least would seem more appropriate. 

Phoenix Guard with their 4+ ward save justify the 20pts investment as they'll have much better staying power...

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2 hours ago, High Warden said:

I think the strength with swordmasters too is the fact that they techically can attack in 2 'ranks' too.  3+ rerollable with mystic shield against ranged is kind of amazing too allowing them to actually make combat. 3+ rerolling 1's to hit  and 2+ to woundwith penant from skywarden and dawnspire formation means these guys hit quite hard.  That being said I've never actually used them in-game and think they could probably do with a point drop given they can't teleport in like stormcast.

I believe they only have a 1" range on their swords

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