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Hounsou83

Random traits and artefacts or not ?

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Hello to everyone!

I run an hobby store here in Italy with a strong AoS community and i found that randomizing General traits ( with the  possibility  to  Reroll  them like warhammer 40k) spells and  magical artifacts is better than let the player choose them.

the Random method does not permits always to have cheesy characters like , for example,an invincible ancient treelord that every Silvaneth player would play or other "bad" combinations 

 

what do you think ?

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I do whatever my opponent agrees to do, but generally I'm a picker.

I picked everything else in the army.  

 

 

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I like picking artifacts/spells/traits. It adds another layer to building an army.

I get why some people like rolling instead, but to me that feels too much like 40k where if you get the right psychic powers you dominate a game and when you get the wrong one it feels awful.

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Nothing worse than stuck up store owners with their arbitrary rules.

 

I deliberately buy all my stuff online instead of at the local GE because the manager has stupid rules he makes you use when you play.

-death vs death

-roll for traits

-he rolls deathless minions ward save I dont

-well gg you win before the games started fun game

 

 

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Don't build your army around command traits and artefacts and always roll, managing to guilt an opponent who has built his army around them into rolling is the best thing.

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6 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

Don't build your army around command traits and artefacts and always roll, managing to guilt an opponent who has built his army around them into rolling is the best thing.

don't build your army around pre chosen units guilt your opponent into freestyling open play at the beginning

 

best thing imo

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I've recently refused to play with allegiance abilities and the like.  The games have been more enjoyable. But when I have I preferred rolling.

Edited by chord
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Quote

I've recently refused to play with allegiance abilities and the like.  The games have been more enjoyable. But when I have I preferred rolling.

Do you play Stormcast?

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7 hours ago, budebear said:

Nothing worse than stuck up store owners with their arbitrary rules.

This was completely unnecessary. Play nicely please

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We generally roll. It makes things more interesting.

That said we don't generally play with mournguls or suchlike power pieces.

Edited by Torgoch

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7 hours ago, budebear said:

Nothing worse than stuck up store owners with their arbitrary rules.

 

sorry that you have a bad experience with your local store owner and good on you that you purchase through another route. It's the best leverage you have. But this is uncalled for. Here is a store owner open to input and you respond like he is an *ss for asking. Be helpful or silent, as my grandmother would say ;) 

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9 hours ago, Hounsou83 said:

Hello to everyone!

I run an hobby store here in Italy with a strong AoS community and i found that randomizing General traits ( with the  possibility  to  Reroll  them like warhammer 40k) spells and  magical artifacts is better than let the player choose them.

the Random method does not permits always to have cheesy characters like , for example,an invincible ancient treelord that every Silvaneth player would play or other "bad" combinations 

 

what do you think ?

As to your question, I usually play with some friends that might or might not pick up the hobby and we have played the first few games without the alliance rules, special terrain rules or battalions and it's still a very fun game, you don't miss it. Later we add things like magical terrain, allegiance abilities, battalion options, stuff like that. Helped them not being overwhelmed in the beginning and every addition adds a little bit of depth which makes it very fun. 

So I wouldn't force it one way or another but make sure the more experienced players know, that when a new player comes in that it's about them learning the rules and not about beating them so utterly they don't want to play again. And if two players want to build the cheesiest list possible and they are having fun with that. Don't limit them, just let them have fun. 

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All the games I've played I've picked, however the first question has always been "you happy picking or would you like to roll?".  My biggest issue with the GA traits is that some favour particular builds of armies which means it's really easy to roll a dud - and some GA's seem to have more of those than others.  Artefacts are similar to this too.

Short version is I think it should be mutual and decided between players.

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We usually roll them and most of the time forget to use the abilities :)

 

To be exact, we roll the relics first and then decide who to give them. I don't have anything against picking either, it just feels bit cheesy when I'm playing against order with my slaanesh to take the +1 to hit trait.

Edited by Jamopower
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First game under generals handbook with my brother we rolled them, after that though I've always picked.

Battlebrew is just too good to pass on

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14 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

 

Short version is I think it should be mutual and decided between players.

This is basically the answer

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We usually pick, mostly because the chaos traits are often fairly useless for my Tzeentch daemons and the game is more than random enough already.

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I prefer picking. I reckon those buffs add up quite a bit to the strategical enjoyment of AoS. All 4 alliances get pretty good ones but you gotta cherry-picked them otherwise it might really give you a big handicap if you randomly get a useless buff.

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Worth mentioning: Two of the Death artefacts are literally useless if you don't have reserve points set aside (and I'm still not sure how the Black Amulet is meant to work).

Although "Ruler of the Night" is almost certainly the best trait, it's hardly a "you win before the game's started" trait. Red Fury (on a decently hitty model) or Master of the Black Arts (on a non-wizard) can both be almost as viable. The other three are utter rubbish, but even if he gets Rule of the Night and you get no command trait at all, you can still out-play him.

What I'd like to see from tournaments is for players to have a choice, but for some additional rules to make the options more balanced. Maybe assign a points cost to each trait and artefact instead of making them free.

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The game was pretty well balanced just before the FAQ dropped. Death were still the worst Grand Alliance at that point, but not by much, however, this was entirely because they had become #WardSave #NewNurgle - in other words because they had by far the best Allegiance Pack.

Destruction took a bit of a hit from the FAQ (but not where one might have expected - Battle Brew will be their necessary crutch going into the year against DoT). Kunning Rukk Arrer Boyz received a stealth buff - which neuters many of the soft counters to them (Bat Swarms, Verminlord Deceiver, Moonclan Shields don't work in the deemed shooting phase in their hero phase, but all their relevant buffs do work). All their non-AoSified factions (including Greenskinz who even got a Get Started Box) were hard nerfed.

Some of Chaos's factions got hard nerfed (Warherd and Brayherd) - some Skaven stuff got a light nerf - I haven't checked which battalions survive the cull - if the have lost Verminus Clawpack, then that's a big blow). However, DoT is going to revitalise the entire Grand Alliance.

Order are the big winner, having marginal losses to their Empire and Duardin battalions (probably a few more losses here and there) and everyone else being nerfed more than them.

They've also picked up a viable sub-faction with the new Swifthawk Agents.

Death were assaulted on virtually every front in the FAQ; and are now the weakest Grand Alliance by a noticeable margin.

Taking away the Ward save crutch from them in competitive matched play games (please do whatever you like in narrative/open play - make up your own allegiance packs for Fyreslayers and post them on TGA - go wild) utterly crushes what is already the worst Grand Alliance. This leaves them with the dismal rational options of YOLO with Nagash and maybe Neferata* - sacrificing the command trait completely in exchange for an overcosted (pending a lore of spells) named hero (and no credible counters to pew pew that work effectively). 

*The overzealous (justified but unnecessarily strong) nerf to fix the (hopefully theoretical) Tomb Herald exploit has also removed the only reliable way of keeping Neferata or Mannderp alive for the first turn (assuming they are the general - so 4+, no possible cover save and then a 6+ ward, and Mannderp's Armour of Templederp), when Sylvaneth take the first turn and proceed to deploy Kurnoth Hunters into Wyldwoods and shoot her/him off the table. Hiding behind a building is rarely an option I should add. That forces you to take 900 points of Nagash - without having a Tomb Herald battery for him - great news!

Edited by Nico

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1 hour ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Worth mentioning: Two of the Death artefacts are literally useless if you don't have reserve points set aside (and I'm still not sure how the Black Amulet is meant to work).

Although "Ruler of the Night" is almost certainly the best trait, it's hardly a "you win before the game's started" trait. Red Fury (on a decently hitty model) or Master of the Black Arts (on a non-wizard) can both be almost as viable. The other three are utter rubbish, but even if he gets Rule of the Night and you get no command trait at all, you can still out-play him.

What I'd like to see from tournaments is for players to have a choice, but for some additional rules to make the options more balanced. Maybe assign a points cost to each trait and artefact instead of making them free.

Black Amulet surely, surely should have said 'mortal wounds' instead of wounds. 

I think supernatural horror could be good against e.g. grots or Ironjawz; but it's so situational you would need to know your opponent before playing it.

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Yeah no. Maybe Order who have a brace of great Relics that I constantly regard with envious eyes, but Death only have about 3good artifacts. Other than that, the Cloak, the Book and the Tomb Blade are all alright, on the right build at least. The Amulet is barely worth remembering, the Ring now useless, and the Unholy Sword only handy for summoning, though I've had success in small games with it.

As far as the Command Traits, they're a mixed bag as well.

I dunno, rolling Red Fury on my Necromancer General seems like not only a dumb idea in terms of gameplay, but also in terms of fluff. Watch out guys, it's a Necromancer who might miss with his hittin' stick twice!

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Yeah, that's one of the big problems I have with rolling for traits as Death. Red Fury is good enough to be a viable alternative, if your general is a VLoZD, Necrosphinx, etc. but completely useless on a non-hitty character. Master of the Black Arts seems like it could be OK on a non-wizard (not good enough to ever be taken as the competitive option, but good enough to not feel terrible if I roll it), but pretty useless on a model who is already a wizard. Over on the artefacts, the Tomb Blade is similarly only worth having on a hitty character, the book is also iffy on anyone who needs to stay out of combat.

Even just rolling for traits/artefacts first, then deciding who to put them on, would make it less of a problem for me.

1 hour ago, TerrorPenguin said:

Black Amulet surely, surely should have said 'mortal wounds' instead of wounds. 

That's what I thought, but there are people who disagree, preferring to treat it like an attack with rend '-' and damage '1' that has just passed a to-wound roll.

When you look at things like the Sylvaneth Spirit of Durthu's "Solem Guardian" ability, it's easy to see why. GW do not use clear and unambiguous terminology in their rules.

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As much as I begrudge it, the Amulet doesn't say Mortal Wounds, so they aren't Mortal Wounds. At least, that's how I play it. If it I ever took it. :P

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On one hand, I agree that it's nice since you can't have some super optimized dude - and let's not beat around the bush, some Heroes scale way better with specific Traits/Artifacts than others. On the other, I like having the ability to build around a power and not get something useless. I think picking is better for the game overall, though.

 

Adepticon is rolling for traits and I recently went to a primer tournament for it. There was a game where my Knight-Venator (a shooty dude) got +1 attack on a melee weapon and -1 rend to a weapon in melee. If my bow and arrow dude is ever in combat with his 3A/4+/3+/- weapon, something is terribly wrong. Meanwhile, my Destruction opponent got 4+ against MWs on his Thundertusk, effectively ****** over my Paladin bomb. 

Rolling is nice so people can't cheese it... but with rolling, one person can end up with cheesy and the other person can end up with useless, which is worse. The less randomness the better, which is why I prefer picking.

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