Fluff Problems

[chord]

I recommend for the thread to get shut down.  I mean, you have some people who like AOS as it is, high fantasy. Others want a return to more WHFB type lore.

its just been pages of that at this point. 

 

[Turgol]

7 minutes ago, AGPO said:

I think a few people could do with taking a step back from this thread. We're talking about a fantasy setting for a miniatures game. Someone having a different interpretation of how/whether it works and what aspects they prefer of it is fine. Getting confrontational with other board members is not.

 

Re. Wider geography: The fact that realmgates can be used to move instantly from one side of the map means that the actual geographical (if such a term can be used in the Mortal Realms) position of one place in relation to another is moot. Take Hammerhal. One side of the city exists in a completely different realm, but because of the realmgate it is far easier to cross from one side to the other than it is to reach many locations in the same realm. Geography becomes less relevant because you aren't reliant on conventional means such as roads, rivers and sea routes to move and supply your armies or trade with your neighbours.

For me this is what makes the setting interesting and enables me to build a narrative for my army and at the same time justify them showing up all over the place. There was no reason for my Middenheimers to show up in Naggaroth or Khemri, especially since the only thematic choices to lead a large force were all special characters with key roles in the main narrative back home. My army from Aquishy however can happily show up in Shyish for the Malign Portents having marched through a realmgate. As a setting for a narrative game this makes the Realms a far better fit.

 

This is true in what refers to how close one area is to another. But this not mean that the actual inner shape of a certain region is without relevance. Realmgates are such a well developed concept in AoS that I think that simply using them to answer the question of how an army reaches a distant location is too little. Hammerhal is an awesome development precisely because it explores the implications of a world build around realmgates.

I wish we could have some more of those in the bigger fluff. It never needs to be exhaustive. But exploring what the presence of a certain (or several) gates means for Hagg Nar, or Carstinia, or Barak Nar, etc., the alliances and rivalries they have developed because of that relative "geography", would add much more depth. 

[Cerlin]

I have enjoyed this topic  but there are some fun subcategories I want to point out. And by fun I mean a sarcastic "painfully talking past each other."

The WHFB fans are arguing that worlds that have some bounds, in which we can personify ourselves, and have rich lore, are appealing.

The counter seems to be either that AoS has bounds, the are just bigger and more Epic(tm) or High Fantasy(tm). These are still fundamentally bounded arguments that say the world tries to have bounds and consistency, though the arguments are too semantic.

The final group seems to me to be arguing AoS is totally unbound and has no boundaries and dont rain on my creative parade. The part I would point out to these folks is that people both need and like bounds. And if there is nothing then people just can not conceve it and dont care. 

I personally love WHFB lore. For total play time, I have played much more AOS. That is not because I think the lore is better but because its the supported system. 

I would also say to people arguing the epic scale, Id point out that we are still basically fighting small scale skirmishes, number wise. So how could these effect the world anyhow? If we are being so fluff dependent.

[AGPO]

9 minutes ago, Cerlin said:

I would also say to people arguing the epic scale, Id point out that we are still basically fighting small scale skirmishes, number wise. So how could these effect the world anyhow? If we are being so fluff dependent.

It depends on what narrative you come up with to fit the game. Personally I see four options off the top of my head:

1. The ratio of minis to soldiers is not 1:1. This is an old established trope in tabletop gaming, simply because almost nobody has the time, money or inclination to paint say 163,000 toy soldiers to fight the battle of Austerlitz. Your unit of 40 clanrats can represent 4000 just as surely as the three trees of a Sylvaneth Wildwood can represent an actual wood. Likewise your character mini represents that hero and their immediate retinue.
2. The tabletop game represents a small but vital part of a much larger battle. This is the one that makes most sense to me when fielding actual Gods such as Alarielle and Nagash on the table. Off-screen, two huge armies clash. A band of warriors has broken through the lines and now comes upon the enemy warlord as they are about to enact their dastardly/brilliant plan.
3. The most important battles aren't always the largest. A huge battle can end in a stalemate, but raids, ambushes and rearguards can all be vital to the outcome of a war depending on their objectives. Perhaps you're seeking to assassinate the enemy general before he can link up with his forces, steal a key artefact or buy time for your allies to prepare their defences.
4. Not every game has to be world changing. The defence of a minor settlement somewhere in Aquishy from a roaving band of Orruks or Bloodbound raiders may not change the whole world, but it's sure as Shyish going to change it for the people who live there! Likewise a border skirmish may not have any ramifications but can be a really fun scenario to play out.

[DynamicCalories]

@AGPO 

I've always read it as a combination of the last 3. That line of thinking  always reminds me of when I went to the GW Games Day back when LotR had just launched, there was a massive long table representing the battle where Sauron fell. It was like 6 tables long, and every table was having its own fun... but the one everyone was interested in was the one with the amazing Sauron model on, imagining him batting away scores of men with each swing of his mace. But the other battles still happened, whether they were grand legions clashing, or small skirmishes at the fray. Those 6 tables as well were a small snippet of the final battle at Dagorlad too. None of that reflects poorly on the scale of Tolkien's world, it's all about tilting your had to refocus.

It's interesting to see desires clash. People want a focus on individuals, and what they can do to change the world... and are sad that the world is too massive to accommodate any perceived change. Perhaps a case of fiction weirdly hitting too close to reality.

[AGPO]

41 minutes ago, Turgol said:

This is true in what refers to how close one area is to another. But this not mean that the actual inner shape of a certain region is without relevance. Realmgates are such a well developed concept in AoS that I think that simply using them to answer the question of how an army reaches a distant location is too little. Hammerhal is an awesome development precisely because it explores the implications of a world build around realmgates.

I wish we could have some more of those in the bigger fluff. It never needs to be exhaustive. But exploring what the presence of a certain (or several) gates means for Hagg Nar, or Carstinia, or Barak Nar, etc., the alliances and rivalries they have developed because of that relative "geography", would add much more depth. 

I agree and originally my post was a lot longer as I went off on one about the potential strategic implications of realmgate based warfare and how travel and trade in the mortal realms would impact society. Then I realised that was probably a whole thread unto itself. I do think that justifying how two armies from different regions come to be in the same place is an important part of the setting for a tabletop game, especially for those of us who like a little narrative behind even a pick up game, but fluff wise there are all sorts of cool subplots to explore with the gates.

I think there's a balance to be struck between giving people a taste of what impact certain key gates have on the cities and cultures that surround them, and cutting off potential narrative avenues. For example, I hope GW never writes anything like "the one realmgate between Realm X and Realm Y sits in City Z under the control of suchandsuch a faction." because that limits the ability of me and a gaming buddy to create a campaign pitting my Realm X Nurgle force against my friend's Realm Y Free Peoples. Likewise, knowing roughly where a certain free city sits within a realm is great,  but if every settlement and detail between there and the next major landmark is filled in then there's far more limited creative options for the players.

[Ollie Grimwood]

All this discussion of maps has reminded me that I’ve got an up to date map of the World that Was 

 

Can we lock this now the OP has said it's no longer relevant. 

[Turgol]

3 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

All this discussion of maps has reminded me that I’ve got an up to date map of the World that Was 

 

Can we lock this now the OP has said it's no longer relevant. 

Nice. First mockery of old WHFB fans. And then calling to lock the thread because the discussion does not suit the interest of the poster. Some people have an obsession for not wanting to discuss things, even when the great majority of the posters are actually sharing interesting views on what they like about the AoS setting. But when some of those view do not follow yours, it must be locked? Awesome. 

[Beliman]

14 minutes ago, Turgol said:

Nice. First mockery of old WHFB fans. And then calling to lock the thread because the discussion does not suit the interest of the poster. Some people have an obsession for not wanting to discuss things, even when the great majority of the posters are actually sharing interesting views on what they like about the AoS setting. But when some of those view do not follow yours, it must be locked? Awesome.

Not going to lie. We can make arguments the whole day (even weeks) if you want but I don't see any conclusion for this post:
-People that want Fantasy:  Yeah, the World ended, but there are alot of new IP (Total war is awesome, and played Vermintide 2 this weekend and 10/10)!!. Nobody is going to change what you think so...

-People that want AoS: Enjoy the game, you have a really good forum with awesome people (and ignore the first AoS years), and it's only the begining (New RPG Book incoming, alot new factions, best minis ever, Shadespire....).  Nobody is going to change what you think so...

-People that loved the Old World and Age of Sigmar: 

P.D: Me

[Ollie Grimwood]

2 minutes ago, Turgol said:

Nice. First mockery of old WHFB fans. And then calling to lock the thread because the discussion does not suit the interest of the poster. Some people have an obsession for not wanting to discuss things, even when the great majority of the posters are actually sharing interesting views on what they like about the AoS setting. But when some of those view do not follow yours, it must be locked? Awesome. 

I am an old WFB fan please save me the wounded carry  on it’s been 3 years it’s become tiresome. I’d love to discuss narrative but unfortunately all I get is claims of “missing” things from AoS that have been covered and made up stuff about WFB background. 

Like it, don’t like it fine but any discussion needs to be based on the subject matter.  

[Gaz Taylor]

Folks, this is going in circles and some of you are taking snipes at each other.

Please stop it.

As I’ve mentioned, you have access to the background writers via Warhammer TV, so you can always ask them about it ?

[Turgol]

8 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I am an old WFB fan please save me the wounded carry  on it’s been 3 years it’s become tiresome. I’d love to discuss narrative but unfortunately all I get is claims of “missing” things from AoS that have been covered and made up stuff about WFB background. 

Like it, don’t like it fine but any discussion needs to be based on the subject matter.  

No. There is discussion about the relevance of Realmgates and what more can be made out of it; there are discussions about the cosmology of AoS; there are discussions on how crazy or how ground-levelled things should be; there are discussions about the best parts of the AoS take on setting-creation and what seems less well developed, etc. 

I really appreciate people having a different view from mine and actually wanting more crazy stuff. I am completely respectful of that. But then I do not see the wisdom in wanting to "stop the discussion" because some people also want maps, or countries, or more heroes, or farmers, or whatever, especially when they are well described and the point is made with respect. It seems to me that there are still many wounds open from hardcore AoS fans being mocked by old WHFB fans and viceversa. I just think we should move beyond that and not interpret each other as simply one part of the party wanting to attack the other. For me and I think most of the posters, it is not at all about that. 

 

[AthlorianStoners]

Yeah I’d second locking this, kinda just getting cyclical/hostile 

[chord]

1 hour ago, AGPO said:

 it's sure as Shyish 

LOVE this line....

[Menkeroth]

36 minutes ago, Turgol said:

I really appreciate people having a different view from mine and actually wanting more crazy stuff. I am completely respectful of that. But then I do not see the wisdom in wanting to "stop the discussion" because some people also want maps, or countries, or more heroes, or farmers, or whatever, especially when they are well described and the point is made with respect. It seems to me that there are still many wounds open from hardcore AoS fans being mocked by old WHFB fans and viceversa. I just think we should move beyond that and not interpret each other as simply one part of the party wanting to attack the other. For me and I think most of the posters, it is not at all about that. 

 

Well, it's an old problem, just like "competitive play vs non-competitive",and they both were for the most part quite one-sided. Personally I don't take kindly to all those people who don't see the difference between what they like and what - others, and want things from where it would be unnatural. People should not mix up everything, especially - the genres when are so far away from each other. You want something "medium fantasy" style, so to speak? you have WHFB (it's still there after all, with tons of material), LotR, Hyboria etc. You want higher? AoS, DnD, MtG (which is also a part of DnD but is often regarded as a separate setting completely) and so on. And so on and on. They don't need to be mixed, especially when they have their own laws and rules which are quite clear for the most part in how they are all structured and governed. It would be silly to demand something "more grounded and realistic" in, say, Spelljammer or Ravenloft. And so here as well.

[Red]

My problems with the fluff are that GW seem to be phoning it in recently:
-Malign Portants had the first third of the fluff section just be a recap of the starter box. we get it, move on. 

-The characters in Malign Portants didn't really acomplish anything other than having the not-Nazgul twirl his mustache some.

-The Legions of Nagash book was supposed to have insight into the day-to-day goings on for the cities of death... but it was half a paragraph of super generic stuff.

I don't want to have to read the Black Library bolter-****** of storm casts, please just give us a setting sourcebook already. I want something grounded and realistic like Spelljammer, Ravenloft, or the Forgotten Realms. These are all very fleshed out settings with concrete lore. They don't explain the whole world, but what they DO explain, they do so fully and competently. These settings have complex characters and locations. AoS seems to be a collection of one-dimensional memes. We have people whose sole source of food is other tribesmen, or burn with nothing more than a hatred of Slaanesh. What do they do with the rest of their time? What does the city do after the battle? Why did Cindy the Hag Queen join the cult of Khaine? What does her family do now that she's off fighting Ogres? Does she even have a family, or was she sculpted out of clay by Morathi/Sigmar/Zeus? 

[Ollie Grimwood]

41 minutes ago, Turgol said:

No. There is discussion about the relevance of Realmgates and what more can be made out of it; there are discussions about the cosmology of AoS; there are discussions on how crazy or how ground-levelled things should be; there are discussions about the best parts of the AoS take on setting-creation and what seems less well developed, etc. 

I really appreciate people having a different view from mine and actually wanting more crazy stuff. I am completely respectful of that. But then I do not see the wisdom in wanting to "stop the discussion" because some people also want maps, or countries, or more heroes, or farmers, or whatever, especially when they are well described and the point is made with respect. It seems to me that there are still many wounds open from hardcore AoS fans being mocked by old WHFB fans and viceversa. I just think we should move beyond that and not interpret each other as simply one part of the party wanting to attack the other. For me and I think most of the posters, it is not at all about that. 

 

There are maps, there are farmers (we’ve even had a story about a Chaos farmer) there are countries  we’ve had all sorts of heroes and villains. I fail to see the discussion in claiming they don’t exist when they do.  The setting has also been shown to encompass the very bottom, dirty skirmishes in back allies between smugglers and the watch right up to the very top in cataclysmic battles between gods. 

We can’t have a discussion when people won’t acknowledge the exisitance of things.  @shinros has done loads of work trying collate everything it can’t take that much effort to have have a read. 

And finally is ain’t a RPG and neither was WFB the claimed level of detail never occurred outside of some Back Library books which is where it still occurs. 

[Menkeroth]

6 minutes ago, Red said:

I want something grounded and realistic like Spelljammer, Ravenloft

ORLY? You really say that? Tzeentch protect...

Did you ever read something of them? Because I did. They are not grounded and realistic, and Tzeentch be praised never will. They are as high fantasy as you can get, simply wonderful in the freedom their authors enjoyed in their creation. Some of my favorites. And AoS in this regard is just lik them.

9 minutes ago, Red said:

the Forgotten Realms

It's another thing completely. It's like WHFB and other more medium style fantasy, with completely different rules and laws. You really see no difference?

10 minutes ago, Red said:

These are all very fleshed out settings with concrete lore. They don't explain the whole world, but what they DO explain, they do so fully and competently. These settings have complex characters and locations

And AoS too.

10 minutes ago, Red said:

AoS seems to be a collection of one-dimensional memes

It does not.

10 minutes ago, Red said:

We have people whose sole source of food is other tribesmen, or burn with nothing more than a hatred of Slaanesh. What do they do with the rest of their time? What does the city do after the battle? Why did Cindy the Hag Queen join the cult of Khaine? What does her family do now that she's off fighting Ogres? Does she even have a family, or was she sculpted out of clay by Morathi/Sigmar/Zeus? 

I always adored such people, really. Like "Tolkien has not written the description of the Aragorn's clothing, so he was naked obviously".  Silly to put it mildly, the sole argument the other side constantly brings up. Which says more than you could wish for.

[Red]

1 minute ago, Menkeroth said:

ORLY? You really say that? Tzeentch protect...

Did you ever read something of them? Because I did. They are not grounded and realistic, and Tzeentch be praised never will. They are as high fantasy as you can get, simply wonderful in the freedom their authors enjoyed in their creation. Some of my favorites. And AoS in this regard is just lik them.

It's another thing completely. It's like WHFB and other more medium style fantasy, with completely different rules and laws. You really see no difference?

And AoS too.

It does not.

I always adored such people, really. Like "Tolkien has not written the description of the Aragorn's clothing, so he was naked obviously".  Silly to put it mildly, the sole argument the other side constantly brings up. Which says more than you could wish for.

Raventloft is a very well crafted setting: Stradh's domain is very fleshed out, with many characters who are not relevant to the "Epic Story", but give you a reason for being. Its very "High Fantasy" with lots of magical elements... but it has towns, taverns, bars, farms and those things that make the fantastical elements actually matter. 

Note that not EVERYTHING has to be grounded and realistic: Malifaux, Spelljammer, Forgotten Realms all have very high fantasy elements... but they take the time to finish the rest of the work of developing a SETTING. When the adventurers finish gallivanting around on the astral plane, they go back to Waterdeep to peddle their wares, stock up on supplies, and participate with the town. They give us a REASON to fight, something to worry about if we lose. And whether this is a bar thats in a rickety old building, or an inn where every door leads to its own pocket plane is something that I'm fine with. Just let me know how life works if I'm supposed to care about the characters.

 

Marakarr Blood-Sky just Mary-Sue's in, takes over a tribe [what were they doing? why do they follow her? do we care that they are leaving everything behind to go on her dame fool of a crusade?] goes to Shyish through a Realmgate [OK, I understand that, fine with that], gets ambushed [What happened on the Plains of Bloody Sky? Why are these the only creatures ambushing them? Have they really only fought one battle before this?], loses some followers [Do we care? I guess they had to give Nurgle the spotlight somehow], and eventually fights the other Harbingers [Do we care about them? Are we rooting for Marakarr? its only been 3 ****** pages... and we're done?]. All because, what, she had a vision and she's Joan of Arc? Where did she get the skills to fight and kill the previous chieftain? What is her plan once she gets to Shyish? Is there food there? Did she need to bring food with her? How big is her army? What will happen to the lands her tribe used to rule? What happens if she wins the Main Event?

She's doing what she's doing "because Chaos" is so incredibly one-dimensional.

[Menkeroth]

5 minutes ago, Red said:

Raventloft is a very well crafted setting: Stradh's domain is very fleshed out, with many characters who are not relevant to the "Epic Story", but give you a reason for being. Its very "High Fantasy" with lots of magical elements... but it has towns, taverns, bars, farms and those things that make the fantastical elements actually matter. 

 

No, all those things don't make fantastical elements actually matter, just as a hero does not become the hero because he saves some villagers. But you are right, Ravenloft is fantastical, especially if you like undead and other forces of darkness. And AoS has all this stuff too, actually.

6 minutes ago, Red said:

Note that not EVERYTHING has to be grounded and realistic: Malifaux, Spelljammer, Forgotten Realms all have very high fantasy elements... but they take the time to finish the rest of the work of developing a SETTING. When the adventurers finish gallivanting around on the astral plane, they go back to Waterdeep to peddle their wares, stock up on supplies, and participate with the town. They give us a REASON to fight, something to worry about if we lose. And whether this is a bar thats in a rickety old building, or an inn where every door leads to its own pocket plane is something that I'm fine with. Just let me know how life works if I'm supposed to care about the characters.

 

And what's the problem? AoS does all those things too, in different ways. If you have not read something it does not cease to exist.

7 minutes ago, Red said:

She's doing what she's doing "because Chaos" is so incredibly one-dimensional.

Actually the background for darkoath warqueens is explained on their page, so everything is clear. Everything else is "Aragorn was naked because Tolkien had not written how he looked like".  

[Turgol]

I see the story of the harbringers as just an example of narrative that can link to the time of tribulations. There is not much more than that. The fact that (SPOILER incoming) Tzeentch causes the three invading armies to fight each other and pretty much be destroyed by the legions of Nagash at the end points out, I think, to how MP will end (yeah, Nagash somehow wins!). But that is all. 

The jewels of MP weren't in the story of Harbringers. It was in the realm of death. Its description and the whole concept is just great. 

[DynamicCalories]

I imagine a lot of stuff with the Harbingers is left vague because they want to expand on it later.  Can't really go into much detail in three pages.

The demand for the minutiae of the realms mystifies me though. I imagine it's very much like every other fantasy setting. If you're born into a world where your city lives on the back of a worm or spreads across two realms... it's still probably much of a muchness. You life, you die (probably by getting eaten by a furious tree).

[Red]

3 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

No, all those things don't make fantastical elements actually matter, just as a hero does not become the hero because he saves some villagers. But you are right, Ravenloft is fantastical, especially if you like undead and other forces of darkness. And AoS has all this stuff too, actually.

Actually the background for darkoath warqueens is explained on their page, so everything is clear. Everything else is "Aragorn was naked because Tolkien had not written how he looked like".  

Except what Aragorn was wearing is not relevant to the story at all. He can be an epic hero if he's naked. We have miniatures to fill that in for us. What matters about Aragorn is who he is, what he is doing, and why he does it. The world of Lord of the Rings is interesting, so the characters in it are interesting. Would LoTR be as interesting if it was set in Beaumont, Texas? No mention of Mount Doom, elves, hobbits or rangers? 

The description for Marakarr Blood-Sky, if we assume the generic description fits her, is that she killed a thousand people, including a chieftain, and then had a really good acid trip. She could be from Kansas.

Quote

And what's the problem? AoS does all those things too, in different ways. If you have not read something it does not cease to exist.

Where does AoS describe these things? Lets take an example that DOES exists: Shyish and the realm of the dead. How does their town work? 

Quote

Here, they forge an existence from the harsh wildernesses of Shyish. In these realms, tradition is sacred above all, and the honored dead walk amongst the living. A princess might seek counsel from the spirit of her long -deceased mother, or a band of deathless warriors might keep an eternal watch upon the city wall, having sworn an oath to protect the living.

Thats is. In all of Legions of Nagash, thats ALL that covers Shyish as a place. $40 for that drivel.

Forgotten Realms Campaign setting is 300 pages.

Through the Breach is 400 pages.

Iron Kingdoms has 79 pages.

They even go into more detail in other books once they have created the world, or at least a corner of it. 

[Menkeroth]

21 minutes ago, DynamicCalories said:

You life, you die (probably by getting eaten by a furious tree).

Oh, there are so many ways of dying...  

4 minutes ago, Red said:

Except what Aragorn was wearing is not relevant to the story at all. He can be an epic hero if he's naked. We have miniatures to fill that in for us. What matters about Aragorn is who he is, what he is doing, and why he does it. The world of Lord of the Rings is interesting, so the characters in it are interesting. Would LoTR be as interesting if it was set in Beaumont, Texas? No mention of Mount Doom, elves, hobbits or rangers? 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Red said:

The description for Marakarr Blood-Sky, if we assume the generic description fits her, is that she killed a thousand people, including a chieftain, and then had a really good acid trip. She could be from Kansas.

Quote

In Kansas there are still wild Chaos tribes? Have not know that. And yeah, I don't respond to the demagogues in other ways than so. Sorry.

5 minutes ago, Red said:

Where does AoS describe these things? Lets take an example that DOES exists: Shyish and the realm of the dead. How does their town work? 

Quote

In GA: Death, Khorne Bloodbound tome (where they invaded a town of Mannfred), Shadows over Hammerhal, City of Secrets etc. Lots of 'em. Everywhere. 

7 minutes ago, Red said:

Thats is. In all of Legions of Nagash, thats ALL that covers Shyish as a place. $40 for that drivel.

 

Except that the book has other things to cover, like units of Death and Nagash himself. But you need not that, so what can I say.

[Red]

8 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

Oh, there are so many ways of dying...  

 

In Kansas there are still wild Chaos tribes? Have not know that. And yeah, I don't respond to the demagogues in other ways than so. Sorry.

In GA: Death, Khorne Bloodbound tome (where they invaded a town of Mannfred), Shadows over Hammerhal, City of Secrets etc. Lots of 'em. Everywhere. 

Except that the book has other things to cover, like units of Death and Nagash himself. But you need not that, so what can I say.

Except all those examples (except for City of Secrets, haven't read that) are grade A bolter ****** [or super high level and brief like GA: Death]. I don't want them to tell me about a battle. I want them to set the stage for the battle, not walk me through a battle report. They are doing less and less world building with every book that comes out. 

The old Lizardmen book had 30 pages that went into the history, the cities, even the ****** language and writing. Does it cover everything? No. Does it cover more than "tradition is sacred above all" without giving some example rites and ceremonies? Yes. There was even a section on how you can build your own temple city, and work it into an active thing, with a game table and all. This was in addition to the 70 pages that went into the units and stuff.

Much of the "fluff" in the new Death book was focused on Nagash and his cronies (16 pages). Very little was about how "your dudes" can fit into this "high fantasy" world.

 

I was expecting more. You seem adamant that this was good, and the fact that you're expecting more of this from GW has convinced me to hold off on buying any more books from them: I need to pirate them first to see if they are what I'm expecting. Good job!