Fluff Problems

[HorticulusTGA]

4 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

(...) We don't need little and common humans, borders and usual maps. It's a high fantasy genre. (...)

No, we do need such maps and common humans, for two reasons :

1) Because every setting, be it historical, high or low fantasy, science fiction, romance, etc. needs to be relatable on a geographic scale. You need to know where is what to understand the setting, to even have a story. It's called coherency.

2) Because the game is played by normal people, most of them coming from WFB and 40k, who wants to have a sense of the scale of the setting, which implies normal people. And it's only positive for AOS ; it magnifies the power of Sigmar (etc.) and the sense of grandeur of the Realms, to have Fritz the farmer and and his little town. What is better than WFB is that you can have a huge variety of cities and size of city. In WFB you couldn't have introduce Hammerhal, both geographically  in the Old world and in the Time line. In AOS you can, and it's awesome.

To give a last example : in the Horus Heresy, you have Primarchs, Titans, a giant galaxy to explore, thousands of years of history, but everything can be mapped and, and normal Imperial army soldiers are a thing. It put things in perspective, and makes the setting understandable and coherent (which implies space and times).

[Turgol]

17 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

exactly. It's astounding that in the age of the internet there are still people who don't know about different genres. Well, these are those explaining that the WHFB was the most advanced and developed setting I presume... We don't need little and common humans, borders and usual maps. It's a high fantasy genre. HIGH FANTASY. With its own limits and laws and rules. DIFFERENT. We don't need another dull and uninspiring pseudo-Europe to begin with. Thousands of them exist, and much less - more magical settings. 

Genres are simple labels applied to wholly different units. Within the label "High Fantasy" you can put very bad, unimaginative but oh everything for spectacle's sake worlds, as much as very coherent worlds with inner logic that actually works and with which you can emotionally relate. I don't have anything against moving from a sarcastic, fantastic German renaissance setting (WHFB) to a different world that can be labeled as high fantasy. I am all in for that. I just want it to be good. And yes, you need some detailed maps (although they can never be exhaustive) for that. 

[Menkeroth]

3 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

1) Because every setting, be it historical, high or low fantasy, science fiction, romance, etc. needs to be relatable on a geographic scale. You need to know where is what to understand the setting, to even have a story. It's called coherency.

 

That's not true.

4 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

2) Because the game is played by normal people, most of them coming from WFB and 40k, who wants to have a sense of the scale of the setting, which implies normal people. And it's only positive for AOS ; it magnifies the power of Sigmar (etc.) and the sense of grandeur of the Realms, to have Fritz the farmer and and his little town. What is better than WFB is that you can have a huge variety of cities and size of city. In WFB you couldn't have introduce Hammerhal, both geographically  in the Old world and in the Time line. In AOS you can, and it's awesome.

 

this is not true either. Because of the genre of which you apparently is not aware. Which changes nothing.

2 minutes ago, Turgol said:

Genres are simple labels applied to wholly different units. Within the label "High Fantasy" you can put very bad, unimaginative but oh everything for spectacle's sake worlds, as much as very coherent worlds with inner logic that actually works and with which you can emotionally relate. I don't have anything against moving from a sarcastic, fantastic German renaissance setting (WHFB) to a different world that can be labeled as high fantasy. I am all in for that. I just want it to be good. And yes, you need some detailed maps (although they can never be exhaustive) for that. 

Well, then we have plenty of maps, just what you need. From the start. And then you can be safe, AoS is a well written coherent logical setting, one of the best high fantasy there is currently.

 

[Killax]

6 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

1) Because every setting, be it historical, high or low fantasy, science fiction, romance, etc. needs to be relatable on a geographic scale. You need to know where is what to understand the setting, to even have a story. It's called coherency.

2) Because the game is played by normal people, most of them coming from WFB and 40k, who wants to have a sense of the scale of the setting, which implies normal people. And it's only positive for AOS ; it magnifies the power of Sigmar (etc.) and the sense of grandeur of the Realms, to have Fritz the farmer and and his little town. What is better than WFB is that you can have a huge variety of cities and size of city. In WFB you couldn't have introduce Hammerhal, both geographically  in the Old world and in the Time line. In AOS you can, and it's awesome.

1) But the fact remains that the first lore content for Age of Sigmar actually included maps... It's just that they where of such an epic fantasy design that most who played Warhammer Fantasy Battles couldn't relate to it. However to say that it needs a geographic scale is not really true. All the worlds in Warhammer 40.000 have not been mapped out for example. There is just a suggestion given of  the universe. While we have artwork of Terra in 40K we do not know what the world looks like from a 'standing on the moon' perspective. 

2) The detailed immersion isn't really needed for the game but great content to fill up books with. But again we have that and it actually was also part of the initial Battletomes. We don't have much details on farmers because there is no farmer Faction so far. Funny enough the closest thing to that would actually be Maggotkin of Nurgle.
As is typical of Epic Fantasies, the focus lies on the Heroes.

[shinros]

37 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Hammerhal. Is. Not. The. Size. Of. A. Continent. 

That's "epic talk". (Just like : "the Realms are infinite !!" No. They are huuuuge, not infinite).

Hammherhal Aqsha for example is really big, gigantic for a "fantasy" setting, but not continent sized.

Just look at this map : 

Directly from shadows over hammerhal guidebook the very first page of it. 

 

Known as Hammerhal Aqsha and Hammerhal Ghyra, together they are large enough to cover an entire continent. 

The mortal realms are vast enough that you cannot make it to one end to another in a mortal life span, hence realm gates, airships and the other methods of travel. Realm gates also come in various shapes and sizes. You don't have to like it but that's what the GW writers put in the book. The AOS setting is vast that's the point, it's deliberate on GW's part to make it so vast. So you always have space for "your dudes" plus it allows GW to easily expand the setting without any problems. 

[HorticulusTGA]

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Directly from shadows over hammerhal guidebook the very first page of it. 

 

Known as Hammerhal Aqsha and Hammerhal Ghyra, together they are large enough to cover an entire continent. 

The mortal realms are vast enough that you cannot make it to one end to another in a mortal life span, hence realm gates, airships and the other methods of travel. 

Man. Look at the hard fact (the map of the city). It's obviously not the size of a continent (compare Cinderfall with the rest of the city). It's maybe the size of a country, not of a continent. 

The text is "epic talk". We had texts saying the Mortal Realms were infinite. They are not, jus really big. 

[Killax]

I just find it really funny that some cannot accept the idea or fantasy suggestion of a city being the size of a continent. Or basically a continent being build up so full that it can be seen as one city... When we just look at our own solar system surely the idea of certain planets being capable to do something like that isn't even that far fetched provided humans could begin to live there...



Ah well. Good luck to those who can't fantom the idea of things being larger as Eath, Terra or the Old World or the cities you know can excist in real life... I mean is the true critism here that fantasy should abide by restrictions of the real world? That in itself is a true oddity.

[shinros]

15 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Man. Look at the hard fact (the map of the city). It's obviously not the size of a continent (compare Cinderfall with the rest of the city). It's maybe the size of a country, not of a continent. 

The text is "epic talk". We had texts saying the Mortal Realms were infinite. They are not, jus really big. 

text is "epic talk" you keep messing up with the sense of scale of the setting right away we know GW have said that one mortal realms is vastly bigger than the whole warhammer world put together so that's a lot of land. Plus the fact they also stated you can't cross one end to another in a mortal life span without a realm gate. 

That is displaying the map of the city that is continuing to expand(even now) in terms of scale you should know in context of the setting it's far more larger than a normal city in whfb. Most cities in AOS are not even "normal".  The whole point of shadows over hammerhal is that the cinderfall district used to be a good part of the city but the ruthless expansion to this enormous size has caused the district to fall into almost a slummish territory where crimes and beggars are rife. 

edit:They even explain how they expand both cities. the bolded part leads credence to how they can ruthlessly expand without much problem. 

Reaching up from the bedrock on both sides of the stormrift, sigmar's warriors discovered rich outcroppings of realmstone. Formed from the concentrated magics of the mortal realms, these volatile crystals were a valuable yet dangerous source of arcane power first harnessed by the renowned architect Valius Maliti. The energies that poured from their central lodeshards were crucial in speeding along the construction of hammerhal, fuelling the efforts of the ironweld engineers who - with the aid of the lord relictors - caged the energies of the realmstone, building elaborate sigmarite machineries around them to harness their volatile sorcerous emanations. In hammerhal aqsha, those wrathful energies powered a vast shield of flickering lightning, while hammerhal ghyra funneled them into protective wards to confuse and misdirect hostile invaders. 

Now, decades after it's founding, hammerhal stands unbowed as an immense and thriving metropolis, full of incredible wonders. Hammerhal ghyra grows an endless bounty of produce, which the inhabitants trade through the stormrift realmgate with their more mechanically minded neighbors in hammerhal aqsha. In return for keeping the fire city fed, the life city receives a carefully channelled flow of molten stone that they direct into the broad defensive canals in order to hold back the overwhelming fecundity of the realm of life.

Each time hammerhal ghyra expands its borders, these lava canals are redirected to claim new land, leaving hollow, ashen networks of tunnels in their wake which the city streets wind between. Hahmmerhal aqsha, by comparison, often uses technology to advance its boundaries. Huge iron-legged cogforts lumber ever outwards from the city edges, the lightning conductors atop their towers expanding the city's energy shield even as the guns of their garrisons watch over hammerhal's approaches. Behind them, hammerhal Aqsha spreads, the zealous devoted cleansing the land with their blood before work crews move in behind them to raise wondrous structures in sigmar's name.  

[HorticulusTGA]

9 minutes ago, Killax said:

1) But the fact remains that the first lore content for Age of Sigmar actually included maps... It's just that they where of such an epic fantasy design that most who played Warhammer Fantasy Battles couldn't relate to it. However to say that it needs a geographic scale is not really true. All the worlds in Warhammer 40.000 have not been mapped out for example. There is just a suggestion given of  the universe. While we have artwork of Terra in 40K we do not know what the world looks like from a 'standing on the moon' perspective. 

2) The detailed immersion isn't really needed for the game but great content to fill up books with. But again we have that and it actually was also part of the initial Battletomes. We don't have much details on farmers because there is no farmer Faction so far. Funny enough the closest thing to that would actually be Maggotkin of Nurgle.
As is typical of Epic Fantasies, the focus lies on the Heroes.

1) It didn't included maps nor explanation of the general setting. I loved the maps we got, like the Brimstone Peninsula one - they just weren't able to give us a complete understanding of the setting. In 40k we have a map of the Galaxy, with known locations. Don't need to be much more detailed than that. I prefer to have the wider picture (it allows to link the different parts together - again, it's called coherency and enable relatable experience of the world), and then let my imagination runs freely in this new, high fantasy setting.

2) We don't need Farmers factions, we need to know how people lives in the Age of Chaos / Sigmar (not the hunted down ones, obviously), or lived (in the Age of Myth). Epic fantasy can be "only Heroes stories," but its quite... one-sided, and totally clash with GW style of writing and world building. GW have a coherent and realistic way of describing its worlds ans settings, it's true for almost every setting (even, in a way, Blood Bowl). AOS was lacking, incomplete at its launch on this aspect. Again - it's not because you have Primarch that you cannot have normal humans. Having both gives perspective to both, helps getting the scales of both, makes the setting reliable, believable even - i.e. what people need to like and understand it. 

[RuneBrush]

5 minutes ago, Killax said:

I just find it really funny that some cannot accept the idea or fantasy suggestion of a city being the size of a continent. Or basically a continent being build up so full that it can be seen as one city... When we just look at our own solar system surely the idea of certain planets being capable to do something like that isn't even that far fetched provided humans could begin to live there...



Ah well. Good luck to those who can't fantom the idea of things being larger as Eath, Terra or the Old World or the cities you know can excist in real life... I mean is the true critism here that fantasy should abide by restrictions of the real world? That in itself is a true oddity.

Wait a minute - are you implying the earth is round?  And why isn't it in the middle?

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++

Just want to give everyone a nudge on the tone this thread is going in. 

Whilst I understand that some of you like to know the rules of the universe that the game sits in, you don't need to do it looking down your noses at each other. If some of you have pressing questions about the size of things or how people travel around - Join Warhammer TV and ask the developers.  

[HorticulusTGA]

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

text is "epic talk" you keep messing up with the sense of scale of the setting right away we know GW have said that one mortal realms is vastly bigger than the whole warhammer world put together so that's a lot of land. Plus the fact they also stated you can't cross one end to another in a mortal life span without a realm gate. 

That is displaying the map of the city that is continuing to expand(even now) in terms of scale you should know in context of the setting it's far more larger than a normal city in whfb. Most cities in AOS are not even "normal".  The whole point of shadows over hammerhal is that the cinderfall district used to be a good part of the city but the ruthless expansion to this enormous size has caused the district to fall into almost a slummish territory where crimes and beggars are rife. 

 

 

I am not arguing that, you know. Even with the snarky @Killax comments (which are btw totally NOT fitting the tone one should have on TGA, but that's a problem for the Mod I guess). I have no problem with a city being the size of a continent. I'm just saying that if you put the fluff and the map in perspective, you'll see that the City of Hammerhal Aqsha is not the size of continent. I don't know why you absolutely want it to be "continent sized", when "really huge" would fit its narrative purpose (and is true regarding the map).

My point remains the same : AOS is the best setting GW ever made IMO, but like every setting, it need to be a coherent, realistic setting - even with giant magical Realms and walking-amongst-men-Gods. It means GW have to talk about the common guys ALSO. Like in THH or 40k. That's all.

[Turgol]

The use of mythic and exagerated language in the AoS descriptions can be seen as a narrative strategy to please most: we can make what we want of the description "Hammerhal is the size of a continent". Is it a real scale description? It is just exaggerated language? You have arguments for and against each case. Shadows over Hammerhal shows people actually walking through different sections of Hammerhal Aqsa in relative short periods. That would be impossible if it was a continent. But then, who cares? 

My grievances is not that. Is the lack of detailed key locations with which to relate. Say once we have a Shadowkin book, would you not like to have a good description of Druchiroth and its surroundings? It would be great, for instance, to have a nice map of the one realm of Ulgu in which it is located, and then simply locate that realm within the vast encompassment of the 13 realms. This is what I am saying: we do not need exhaustive maps, sure, but we need some detailed maps of key locations. 40k has those: it does not only have the "galaxy map" but also some of key systems (Ultramar, Solar system, etc.). 

Key anchoring points. Well developed. With a good explanation of why they are important and the perils and development chances they face. That is all I am asking for. 

[shinros]

9 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

I am not arguing that, you know. Even with the snarky @Killax comments (which are btw totally NOT fitting the tone one should have on TGA, but that's a problem for the Mod I guess). I have no problem with a city being the size of a continent. I'm just saying that if you put the fluff and the map in perspective, you'll see that the city of hammerhal Aqsha is not the size of contient. I don't why you absolutely want it to be "continent sized", when "really huge" would fit (and is true regarding the map).

My point remains the same : AOS is the best setting GW ever made IMO, but like every setting, it need to be a coherent, realistic setting - even with giant magical Realms and walking-amongst-men-Gods. It means GW have to talk about the common guys ALSO. Like in THH or 40k. That's all. 

See here is the thing AOS is not realistic like at all that's the point. They changed the setting purposely to get away from that in whfb. So they can have tons of room to expand, destroy cities, create new and even more crazy cities and allow us players to insert our own stories with ease. Plus in turn allows each of the factions to remain relevant in the lore without destroying them. 

edit:See I am noticing the problem is that some people feel the setting is too vast so it' not easy for them to get invested for me it's the opposite I enjoy the fact that fantasy is far more vast and crazy. New cities and crazy idea's can be explored with impunity without upsetting the setting like whfb. Ton's of cultures that thrive or outright be destroyed because the setting is now as vast as 40k. The imperium is still discovering planets in the wide galaxy I mean look at cadia it's sooo "Important" to the setting and GW blew it up and moved on like it's nothing really. But since you have a whole galaxy new worlds and places can become important. That is why I personally like vast settings like 40k and AOS.  

Plus the fact AOS is like three years old I feel they are doing pretty well with a 3 year old setting and I can't wait to see more going by malign portents. Look at the campaign if destruction wins this week we now have a new crazy moon leering at us all the time now in the setting that eats secrets which I think is pretty neat. 

[HorticulusTGA]

1 minute ago, shinros said:

See here is the thing AOS is not realistic like at all that's the point. They changed the setting purposely to get away from that in whfb.  

Then why create a whole cosmology ? Why give us maps and timeline ? Why even bother having a on going story ? Why follow the same general rules (like Reality / Realm of Chaos, etc.) ?

Every GW setting is realistic (by which I means follow common rules and is coherent, that's all).

If the setting wasn't realistic it would just be badly written and incoherent, unlike every GW setting ever.

AOS is the youngest one (adding to that the scope both in the timeline and in the world), so some vagueness is totally fine. It just need to explored more.

Which is what is happening since All-Gate and the Seeds of Hope (and with the General's Handbook) ; it's exactly what makes people like AOS background more (I loved it since day 1 because I knew GW would make it more and more coherent after a few months / years).

[Turgol]

2 minutes ago, shinros said:

See here is the thing AOS is not realistic like at all that's the point. They changed the setting purposely to get away from that in whfb. So they can have tons of room to expand, destroy cities, create new and even more crazy cities and allow us players to insert our own stories with ease. Plus in turn allows each of the factions to remain relevant in the lore without destroying them. 

This just an assumption: that they changed the setting BECAUSE WHFB was too realistic. There are tons of reasons actually why they changed it and it certainly it is not solely because of that: IP issues, stagnation, a fanbase that did not want anything to change or any exploration, they needed a new world to reboot all factions and force people to buy again, etc. 

There is one point I think all can agree with: WHFB both in its own logic and in the stance of its fanbase did not provide much room for constant expansion. AoS does. This is not because it is unrealistic and crazy. It is simply because it is unexplored, new and big. You can have all of those without crazy, unrelatable stuff. 

But I guess in that one point, Killax was right: it is just a matter of taste (and not of business or lore necessity) how crazy you want your fantasy universe to be. If I was GW and saw this thread, I would conclude that some like it very crazy and some want it to be more ground-levelled. What would I do? Not settle the issue! Have some ground levelled descriptions and development and some crazy stuff. Yeah, sure, no one will end up completely happy this way, but all will be mostly happy. 

[Menkeroth]

No, the genres don't work in this way. I am happy such people don't really decide something because then DnD, MtG and WoW would not have existed at all. Which are all way more interesting, developed and usable for companies than WHFB ever was.

[Jamopower]

WHFB has its roots strongly in the historical gaming, which I guess is not as popular as it has been. Therefore it's easy to understand why with AoS GW has taken steps towards its competitors (on IP and games level), such as Warmachine, Magic the Gathering, Warcraft and D&D. 

 

For me, the Old world has always been a great setting for RPGs, but puzzling for wargames. At the same time in the fluff no one has ever heard about daemons or chaos, and the Empire has waged wars against Archaon's hordes.

[HorticulusTGA]

2 minutes ago, Turgol said:

This just an assumption: that they changed the setting BECAUSE WHFB was too realistic. There are tons of reasons actually why they changed it and it certainly it is not solely because of that: IP issues, stagnation, a fanbase that did not want anything to change or any exploration, they needed a new world to reboot all factions and force people to buy again, etc. 

There is one point I think all can agree with: WHFB both in its own logic and in the stance of its fanbase did not provide much room for constant expansion. AoS does. This is not because it is unrealistic and crazy. It is simply because it is unexplored, new and big. You can have all of those without crazy, unrelatable stuff. 

But I guess in that one point, Killax was right: it is just a matter of taste (and not of business or lore necessity) how crazy you want your fantasy universe to be. If I was GW and saw this thread, I would conclude that some like it very crazy and some want it to be more ground-levelled. What would I do? Not settle the issue! Have some ground levelled descriptions and development and some crazy stuff. Yeah, sure, no one will end up completely happy this way, but all will be mostly happy. 

Excellent post !

I think AOS was just lacking enough "limits" and some "hard points", some defined locations (like continent-sized cities  ), and some focus on normal people. 

It was the same thing for the rules (too "open"). 

GW just had to put some limitations here and there, without restricting nor changing the general tone of the world. 

Now, since 2016 General's Handbook / Season of Wars (introduction of the 3 ways to play, and the introduction of Realm-maps and cities) and 2018 Malign Portents (clear, accessible to new people Cosmology), GW have found the right "balance" for the setting (balance that was IMO already present at the start, just not enough explored - also because GW wanted to show the new possibilities offered by the setting, i.e. a more crazy world with the very epic Realmgate Wars).

[shinros]

20 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Then why create a whole cosmology ? Why give us maps and timeline ? Why even bother having a on going story ? Why follow the same general rules (like Reality / Realm of Chaos, etc.) ?

Every GW setting is realistic (by which I means follow common rules and is coherent, that's all).

If the setting wasn't realistic it would just be badly written and incoherent, unlike every GW setting ever.

AOS is the youngest one (adding to that the scope both in the timeline and in the world), so some vagueness is totally fine. It just need to explored more.

Which is what is happening since All-Gate and the Seeds of Hope (and with the General's Handbook) ; it's exactly what makes people like AOS background more (I loved it since day 1 because I knew GW would make it more and more coherent after a few months / years).

Yeah but the cosmology is bloody nuts for example the realms of Ulgu and Hyish handle day and night by circling each other two whole realms circling each other to create day and night for everyone the realm of light and shadow. While for us it's merely the earth turning. AOS the whole point that it largely does not follow the common rules, you have pocket dimionsions, planets in the realms itself. Each realm is essentially a universe to itself. Plus a setting having a timeline? Most settings have those because this is a wargame still and it's nice to have recorded history of major events in the realms. 

 

Ignax was thought to be a sun just look at the sense of scale of him next to Archaon

 

Then you have the orb infernia

The Orb Infernia is a region of Aqshy. Once a world into itself that hung above the Flameworlds, it was conquered by the forces of Chaos. Over the centuries, its oceans have boiled away, leaving fragmented lands bound together by the hatred of the four daemon princes who rule them. The four princes are collectively known as the Tetrarchs. The Slann Starmaster Lord Xen'phantica also dwells on Orb Infernia, secretly ensuring that the daemon princes and their legions do not escape.

Long ago, Orb Infernia was a grand sky-kingdom. The people who dwelled there were miners and artisans who traded with other nations, and were famed for the grandeur of their visits to the realms below the Orb. The land was abundant in mineral wealth and precious jewels. Orb Infernia's monarchs and merchants enjoyed dazzling wealth and brisk trade.

Once a world in itself that is the sense of scale we are dealing with here and a city being the size of a continent is a problem in such a setting?

 Another example from all the realms you can always see ayzr in the skies no matter where you are in the realms. The setting is meant to be over the top and as Turgol said at the end of the day it's different tastes. 

[AdamR]

12 minutes ago, shinros said:

 

 Another example from all the realms you can always see ayzr in the skies no matter where you are in the realms. The setting is meant to be over the top and as Turgol said at the end of the day it's different tastes. 

What do residents of Azyr see when they look up? 

[HorticulusTGA]

3 minutes ago, shinros said:

Yeah but the cosmology is bloody nuts for example the realms of Ulgu and Hyish handle day and night by circling each other two whole realms circling each other to create day and night for everyone the realm of light and shadow. While for us it's merely the earth turning. AOS the whole point that it largely does not follow the common rules, you have pocket dimionsions, planets in the realms itself. Each realm is essentially a universe to itself. Plus a setting having a timeline? Most settings have those because this is a wargame still and it's nice to have recorded history of major events in the realms. 

(...)

Once a world in itself that is the sense of scale we are dealing with here and a city being the size of a continent is a problem in such a setting?

(...)

while from all the realms you can always see ayzr in the skies no matter where you are in the realms. 

You know, I absolutely love that. For me it isn't nuts at all, as long as is it "smart and coherent". For example, Hysh and Ulgu explanation of night and day is absolutely brilliant, because it gives interesting, both fantastic and realistic cosmological rules, allying magic with gravitation and the day and night cycle (and explains it in the scope of the realms). Idem for Azyr floating higher in the Aetheric Void than the other 7 realms, thus being seeable in every sky (read the intro of Hammerhal by JR on this point). The Godbeasts, or the multidimensional nature (Reality, Webway, Chaos, etc.) of every GW settings are too awesome elements.

Mythological and Epic does not (or shouldn't) mean unreliable, unrealistic (in the way I described it) or incoherent. On the contrary, Greek or Norse mythologies (upon which AOS is heavily based btw) was precisely a way to give our world a coherent feel, to help reason and understand it. Even if it had snake ladies  

And believe me, it's not the fact that Hammerhal CAN be the size of a continent that is a problem, it's the fact that - according to the map ! - it isn't, that disturbs me. If the map showed a city integrating whole mountain ranges and seas, not a few volcanoes and 2 lakes , then fine ! It's just not the case. But that's not really a big problem.

[shinros]

3 minutes ago, AdamR said:

What do residents of Azyr see when they look up? 

Well according to the books the planet's and stars that fill the skies of ayzr they are literally everywhere. Plus it's been said the realm actually contain's a lot of mountains which makes it easier to star gaze. See I answered the question. Also let's not forget this is hovering right above them.

There it is in the next art work.

 

[HorticulusTGA]

Remember Azyr (like every Mortal Realms) is a flat plane, and above it (but still in the Realmsphere and around in the Aetheric void) are nebuleas and constellations made of celestial magic (and small celestial bodies like moons, Mallus and Sigmaron) - I guess that's what people from other Realms are seeing, not the "flat earth" itself. 

[AGPO]

I think a few people could do with taking a step back from this thread. We're talking about a fantasy setting for a miniatures game. Someone having a different interpretation of how/whether it works and what aspects they prefer of it is fine. Getting confrontational with other board members is not.

 

Re. Wider geography: The fact that realmgates can be used to move instantly from one side of the map means that the actual geographical (if such a term can be used in the Mortal Realms) position of one place in relation to another is moot. Take Hammerhal. One side of the city exists in a completely different realm, but because of the realmgate it is far easier to cross from one side to the other than it is to reach many locations in the same realm. Geography becomes less relevant because you aren't reliant on conventional means such as roads, rivers and sea routes to move and supply your armies or trade with your neighbours.

For me this is what makes the setting interesting and enables me to build a narrative for my army and at the same time justify them showing up all over the place. There was no reason for my Middenheimers to show up in Naggaroth or Khemri, especially since the only thematic choices to lead a large force were all special characters with key roles in the main narrative back home. My army from Aquishy however can happily show up in Shyish for the Malign Portents having marched through a realmgate. As a setting for a narrative game this makes the Realms a far better fit.