Locus of Beguilement

[Squirrelmaster]

Would people apply the daemonettes' ability "Locus of Beguilement" before or after modifiers? It says you re-roll results of 6 or more.

[BaldoBeardo]

The wording would suggest after, but as the main rules and FAQ stipulate rerolls occur before modifiers it would be before - it's in the same category as -ve hit modifiers not allowing dual wields to reroll.

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[Squirrelmaster]

Yeah, I was more wondering how people actually play it, tbh. RAW you could argue that "re-roll failed saves" should be done before applying modifiers (including rend).

Most people seem to assume that if a re-roll ability talks about successful or failed rolls then it's applied after modifiers, but re-rolling on a fixed number (eg. re-rolling 1s) is done before.

Have any tournaments FAQd this?

[Tapetklistret]

21 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

 

Have any tournaments FAQd this?

Not sure really what has to be FAQd,  i might be reading both your posts wrong but.

I apologize if i dont fully understand your question. 

But the rule says "you must reroll hit rolls of 6 or more"  so if someone gets tons of +x modifers to hit, it still applies, 

 

 

[Squirrelmaster]

The core rules say re-rolls happen before modifiers. This is important because, for example, if you have re-roll 1s to hit and +1 to hit, you don't lose your re-roll.

By that logic, a big unit of zombies (6+ to hit) with +3 to hit will be hitting on a natural roll of 3+, but will only need to re-roll natural 6s. The "or more" part of the rule is completely redundant because you can never get more than a 6 on a D6, before modifiers.

It seems like the intention is for this ability to apply after modifiers, so the zombies would end up re-roll everything. That's not what the core rules say, though.

[rokapoke]

28 minutes ago, Tapetklistret said:

But the rule says "you must reroll hit rolls of 6 or more"  so if someone gets tons of +x modifers to hit, it still applies, 

 

 

However, the basic rules clearly state that rerolls take place before applying modifiers. 

[Tapetklistret]

Quote from faq

" Always use abilities that modify dice rolls before applying any abilities that are triggered by the (modified) dice roll in question "

[BaldoBeardo]

Quote from faq

" Always use abilities that modify dice rolls before applying any abilities that are triggered by the (modified) dice roll in question "

Yes, but the problem here is now there's no chronology for dice rolling, as the FAQ and the main rules now appear to be in conflict.

It could be easily fixed by using the terms "roll" and "result" for trigger conditions.

For example, Dual-wielding liberators get to re-roll to-hit rolls of 1 (*not* "1 or less"). They're suffering from a -1 to-hit debuff.

The Stormcast player absolutely whiffs, and comes up with six 1's and one 2.

How many dice does he get to re-roll? Because following the main rules and the FAQ, six and one could both be the correct answer.

Or, to put it simply - rerolls result from abilities triggered on a result, modifiers affect the result so by the FAQ have to happen first. But rerolls have to happen first, according to the rules.

I'm not aware of a single situation where a reroll is *not* triggered on a result, so it's not possible to find a situation where the main rule of rerolls first can be applied where modifiers apply.

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[Squirrelmaster]

I think if I was tasked with FAQing it for a tournament, I'd rule that the player who controls the ability decides. There's no real basis in RAW for that, but I'm not aware of a situation where the result it creates feels wrong to me.

[BaldoBeardo]

Yes, but it's now a grey area. Fine for open/narrative play, but matched play don't like it.

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[Shane]

Core rules wording for reference only (pg 1, Tools of War):

You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers to the roll (if any) are applied.

[BaldoBeardo]

Core rules wording for reference only (pg 1, Tools of War):
You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers to the roll (if any) are applied.

Indeed, but in light of the FAQ, I can't find a situation where rerolls *and* modifiers could apply simultaneously, either pre- or post- result, meaning that statement in the rules is kinda redundant. (Happy to be proven wrong!!)

I'm not arguing the FAQ isn't simple enough to follow/implement - it is, and I agree with the logic.
It's just that (again), GW dropped the ball on tight semantics.
I swear, half the FAQ could be binned if they didn't do it so often.

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[mmimzie]

Hmm if you reroll before modifiers. If you have +1 to hit on spirit hoet who naturally hit on 5+ and mortal would on a 6+. Then you'd get to reroll rolls of less than 5 ornpretty mych anything that wouldnt have been mortal wounds. 

 

Not really sure how i say this works but it does say pre modifier??