Count von Count Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Hey all! I'm newer to the site, but figured some critique is necessary here. I will be playing in a semi competitive tournament in a few weeks at a local shop, and have had success with a similar list in free play. Vampire Lord -General, Command Trait, Chalice, Wings Count Mannfred -Nightmare Necromancer Wight King -Banner Wight King -Black Axe, Black Periapt 20 Zombies 20 Zombies 20 Zombies 20 Zombies 10 Zombies 10 Zombies Corpsecart -Lodestone Corpsecart -Brazier 5 Dire Wolves 5 Blood Knights 5 Blood Knights Comes out to right at, or just under 2000, I am away from my notes at the moment. And my sideboard consists of: Mortis Engine 20 Tomb Guard. The zombie units with the new FAQ arent meant to form a single horde, but with the maximum still being 60 and plenty of healing/extra saves scattered around, they can handle punishment. The redundancy in carts is simply to expand their bubble and the heroes will help support them. The blood knights tend to handle their own alongside the death pups, and make a nice hammer backed up by Mannfred. In certain games with higher armor values, I would drop 30 zombies to bring in the Mortis Engine, and for a tankier center, drop the dogs and some zombies to bring in the Tomb Guard. However, for most games I feel the main list would suffice and may not need to use the sideboard at all. Thoughts? Comments? Critiques? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Griffin Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 i think it all depends on how competitive you want to be. I think the strength of this list is its wealth of chaff units, so alpha strike armies have to wade through mountains of worthless models in order to get to your hammer units (Blood Knights). I think I would run at least one of those zombie units as a bigger horde at the outset, rather than rely on merging in your hero phase. The real weakness here is that it's a relatively slow moving army, with the zombies only moving 4, I think you might struggle to grab objectives across the board. Dire wolves are great for this and very cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Hey there i run zombie horde and since the generals hand book has come out i have lost a game. Though i did have one draw. I play only competive. Glad the FAQ clear the zombie stuff up, but played it and the ring imortality the way the faq says because i was pretty sure of how they worked for some time. I have since changed my list abit from this, but this is the list i had been running before: my list is very summoning oriented, and usually starts with 80 zombies on board and i summon up to 70-100 more. As far as @David Griffin getting up the board is fine. Pile in and attack twice, and maybe a first turn run will get your zombie units well up the board, by linking zombie units and doing charges that normally aren't possible you can get accross the board surprisingly fast. For your list i'd drop the dire wolves into summoning. They sorta suck??? But make REALLY good meat shields, but only really to set upo for zombie charging and positioning. Basicly, if you del[poy them normaly your best hope is to run them up the board and have them get in the way of things, something that could just as easily be done via summoning. However, in most situations where they are kind of worthless to summoning they are also worthless if they were already on the board. The damage is kind of poor, and as such you'd wish you had those points for something else. So putting the dogs in the summoning poor works great. I'd make both cart's +1 to cast. Odds are you wont get to use the -1 to cast very often, and it's simply better to have the redundancy of +1 to cast. Blood knights are cool, but i feel like they simply aren't enough??? The real problem the zombie list has is dealing with 2+ rerollale saves -1 rend wont be the big a difference if it turns into a 3+ rerolling 1's as they'll still ignore a lot of the damage. As such i think you want -2 rend or mortal wounds: Options being: Mortis engine: This is my go to, does 2 mortal wounds in combat, d3 when it explodes, and maybe another d3 with it's hero phase shooting attack. With 2 or help from your zombie horde this tends to be enough to get pasted those 2+/2+ guys. Suck against enemy death, but you don't really need it against death, and it can change it's role to a more suicide screening model. Morghast Arcai: These things are a bit weak sauce on the damage out put, but they are really tough, and they combo insanely well with your necromancer's special save. Also work well for summoning, but again they are expensive for the amount of damage they put out. Spirit host: tanky just like the arcai (though more vulnerable to mortal wounds), but deal about the same damage per point as the arcai, but 3/4ths of the damage is mortal. Next think about the generals hand book scenarios, you might have a tough time with pieces of power. 1 of your heros is gonna be planting a banner so he might not make it to the objective, leaving you with about exactly 3 heros for claiming the objective, but none of these heros are particularly tanky. You may also consider a bit more summoning pull in case you need to throw a few cairn wraiths on the board to help bolster your objective grabbing power for that mission. Finally, i have been playing around with the infernal standard (wight king with banner) off and on... i gotta say i'm not super impressed?? The problem i have is he needs provide a save roll for 120 zombies (1/6 zombies live) to save 20 zombies to get his points back, and i always feel like... man... i kinda wish i just had 20 more zombies attacking or taking this part of the map, or reinforcing my zombie horde, or what have you. I just dont know how much of a force multiplier he is, and in games when i examined it his usefulness was hard to gage at best. Anywho figured i'd share my experience with the list. I wrote up some of my thoughts on units a little more in my lastest post that i linked above. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count von Count Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 3 hours ago, mmimzie said: Hey there i run zombie horde and since the generals hand book has come out i have lost a game. Though i did have one draw. I play only competive. Glad the FAQ clear the zombie stuff up, but played it and the ring imortality the way the faq says because i was pretty sure of how they worked for some time...+otherstuffs Hey Mmimzie, thanks! Very insightful stuff, but a few questions. I've not used much summoning; usually, I plop my stuff down and only use summoning for fun or to fill in spare points if a list isn't full. How do you like it and use it? based on my understanding of the rules, you only get the ability to summon a unit if you pay the points for one of its same type. Do you just leave empty points then to allow for summoning things? If so, would you drop the wight king with a banner for at least one wraith (not attached to it. Never had much luck with him anyways) and then drop the dogs or take them and just keep them off board for a summoning pool? Also, as to Blood Knights, I've loved them in my games but I see your point. However, I don't think I can replace them with two Mortis Engines; I still have to put together the one I listed, and I doubt between work, the holiday, and a birthday between here and game day that I could finish another. I also see your point on the Corpsecarts; as far as I'm aware, the bonus doesn't stack, but in my games I have had them sniped often and that +1 is more valuable than a -1 in the long run. For the killy factor, I do have something like 12 spirit bases. I can always put them in as a replacement and up that mortal wound-dealing count. In one of my games, I essentially did a mini-nighthaunt wing that served purely to hit those high armor targets, and it wasn't super expensive to take and proved pretty effective. I do have four heroes if planting the banner, not 3, but for the price of the king that's two cairn wraiths to hit the hero cap. Would you discard the Blood Knights entirely then? I've found they do pretty well even without the charge, but the spirit hosts I've used do the same and for much much cheaper. For summoning, what do you place on the board at start if you are tailoring your list using casting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 I mean if the mortis engines aren't realistic, which i understand i've been hardcoring them for about a week and half almsot got both done. You can also grab Harbingers or Spirit host. The Arcais and Spirit host are both kinda low damage when you compare it to the damage put out by the zombies, but they exist for the rend. Mortis engine is lower damage than spirits and harbingers, but they are good because they can burst out more damage than either when they blow up doing something like 6 mortal wounds on the turn they go + more to multiple units and the heal, makes for explosive turns that combo well with a merge +VDM, and helps burst down those big guys. The mortis engine is also wicked fast However, Arcai do good damage so you could just get these. They also have a much smaller foot print than the spirit host do, and a long range that lets them attack over the top of your zombies. They also will buff your summoning. Only problem is it's 12 wounds (mortal wound save) for 240 points vs spirits being 9 wound (ignore rend) for 120 points. So between the three you honestly can't go wrong. yeah the knights are cool, but zombies will do more damage and -1 rend isn't really what you need, you need stuff that can deal with harder armor saves. the corpse cart bonus does not stack, but i'm saying you'll more or less never use the -1. I play my mortis engines super aggressively and i hardly ever get the -1 to cast from that, and that thing is super fast and can fly. Just means you don't lose +1 to cast when it dies. Summoning, yeah you pick and amount of points and say your holding those points to summon later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizianolol Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Guys about zombies faq.. You can play 3x10 zombies and first turn merge into 1x30? Because limit size is 60.. Or you can t have a unit of zombies bigger then the initial one? So starter unit is 10 model , you can have a unit of 30..what is correct interpretation?:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count von Count Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 Hmmm...ok then, a quick rewrite. Vampire Lord -General, Ruler of the Night, Chalice, Wings Count Mannfred Necromancer Wight King -Black Axe, Cursed Book Cairn Wraith Cairn Wraith 40 Zombies 20 Zombies 20 Zombies 10 Zombies 10 Zombies 10 Zombies Corpsecart -Lodestone Corpsecart -Lodestone 5 Dire Wolves Mortis Engine 2 Morghast Archai or 6 Spirit Hosts Total, 2000 points With this list, I took you guys' suggestions to heart; I will be hard pressed to get the Archai together alongside the Mortis Engine, so I may drop them for the Spirit Hosts, hence the or. The general idea is to deploy 80 Zombies on the board; the big unit of 40, spread up front with a Corpse Cart and heroes behind them. then, wrap the two 20 man Zombie units around each flank, and bring up the rear to close off access to my support with the Mortis Engine. I will leave the two Wraiths in reserve alongside the remaining 30 Zombies, the 5 Dire Wolves, and the 2 Morghasts or 6 Spirit Hosts, giving me an effective pool of 480 points. Does that look a little better? I will only have maybe 2 to 3 games to test out the different versions prior to the tourney. Based on your description, when summoning I can use that pool to conjure whatever units I have paid for. Does that mean I can only summon two Wraiths? Or can I give up Zombie units and summon additional Wraiths or whatever I might need? @Tizianolol, the FAQ simply means that you can't choose to merge at deployment and not beyond max size. So for the list I just rewrote, my Zombie blocks have to be deployed in those counts if I deploy them. Nothing prevents them from merging during your first hero phase, so long as you do not merge to create a unit of more than 60 Zombies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 31 minutes ago, Tizianolol said: Guys about zombies faq.. You can play 3x10 zombies and first turn merge into 1x30? Because limit size is 60. this As for the list, it looks good. Though i'd turn the cairn wraiths and dire wolves and save them for summoning. So the way it works if your make your list, and basicly just say "got 300 points for summnong" you don't have to declare what you are summoning. For instance i use the ring of immortality. So i set a side points for the vampire lord again. If i don't use those points by turn 3 then i'll summon some more stuff and give up her second life. The weakness here is that when your summoners die technically all your summoning points have also died. Also as far as the Wight with banner it's something i'm still looking into. To me it just simply doesn't feel very worth it??? I might do a few more games with it and give it a try. Just you have to have a lot of dude make save to make him worth it. Though in thinking about imagine you lose 18 zombies, your definitely gonna lose zombies to battle shock right/? but if you have the same and make 3 of them (average out of 18) then you'd also be saving 3 more dudes from dying in battle shock. Also there is some very small value in the model saving himself, your leaders or other support models from death. Plus with zombie units you really just need that banner guy to live so you can keep regenerating the unit. So that also has it's own weird value. As saving 1 banner guy and keeping a straggler unit alive is worth d6 zombies. So i think its a model worth play testing if you ahve time, and take or leave it based on your taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count von Count Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 Update time! Went to the tournament today. A few reflections for your thoughts and mine. Overall, I had one major victory, a minor, and a loss, putting me in 3rd place overall. The list did rather well, and I have absolutely fallen in love with how the Mortis Engine performs, so thanks for the advice! Now, my loss was an extremely bad one to a player running a mix of Fyreslayers and Seraphon; essentially, a block of 60 zombies was melted first turn by Ripperdactyls, and the way the list was made the fella was toting rerollable 3+ saves, with a 4+ save after the save to boot. Granted, from what I gathered, this guy is a champ and only plays competitively. Nonetheless, it was rather disheartening to be nearly tabled and pretty much locked into a loss by the second turn. This list held up well for the most part, but against an alpha strike that rough, I just couldn't recover to be able to act on a later turn. Frankly, I couldnt do much of anything to them in return, even after trying to summon some stuff back with those saves he had. However, it was still a fun time and 3rd isn't bad for a first time! I think next time, I may lose the Archai in favor of spirit bases, only because I was having much more support from the mortal wounds of the Mortis Engine in the two games where it mattered. I figure burying an enemy in the durability and mortal wounds of hosts will do just as much, for half the price. My question for you guys; how do you deal with alpha strike lists? Especially ones like the Ripperdactyl cheese, or the Goutfyre formation? Just curious for the next time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Ripperducks and be rough if they get that free attack on you, and they kind of do the same waiting game as zombies. While also being a waiting game kind of units as i assume they were in the formation that let them pretend they aren't on the table until they attack. The best way to do this is to only merge up in units of 30/40 and only use them for when you need to kill stuff. Otherwise try to hold out in MSU mode as long as possible. You can also bubble wrap your attacking unit with MSU mode zombies. Really you oonly want to go all 60 when your charging 3 or 4 units as usualy 30 or 40 will do the same thing if your only attacking like 2 units. ALso don't spread two thin as you can attack in 2 ranks which is where they get real killing power. One thing is merging is a big form of movement for a unit. One thing i should have done in my mega battle today, but i didn't. Is to use merging to allow your blob to suddenly strike out in new avenues. Try to aim for using 3 or 4 blocks of 40 or 30 zombies respectively instead of trying to get that big 60 merge until you get a golden multi unit attack. Yeah arcai are abit disappoint and spirits are nice for the price. Glad you loved the mortis engine. Did you run 1 or two mortis engines?? Did you pay points for your ring of imortality??? Was manfread worth bringing?? Was it worth having double Corpse Cart?? Did you use summoning?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count von Count Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 I only had one Engine this time around, as I couldn't get a second one assembled. However, it performed beautifully save in the second game. I think another one will be a strong addition, but I also want to find a good conversion too as two out of the box will look pretty static in my opinion. I did not use the Ring of Immortality at all. It may have been useful against the alpha striking lists, but it really didn't hinder me at all to use the Cursed Book. I kept my King in a gap just behind my main zombie line, and everything that hit that front block was at -1 to hit. I can see myself running the Book alongside a Mourngul in the future, just for that cumulative debuff. However, I also liked the Blade of Unholy Power for a sure-fire summoning at a key moment where it is needed. As for Mannfred, I liked how he performed. With two spells a turn and a nice unique spell, he meshed well with the mortis engine when it started popping off mortal wounds. He also was pretty key in keeping a lot of my summoning going, as my necromancer was Van Helsing his butt off, and my vampire lord was generally staying as hidden as I could to keep the Ruler of the Night up. He's also no slouch in combat either, so overall, well worth it. He also isn't many more points than the Ring of Immortality would have required, and I feel that me being able to use him for an entire game with his spells and slighty better kill factor was more worth it. The two Corpsecarts were good, although really they didn't do a lot on their own. Where they helped me was when I split my main block up; I was starting my line with 80 zombies formed around the carts and my heroes, who would merge as need be come second turn to split off and hit targets. When that happened, I liked not having to daisy chain my zombies to keep buffs up, and the +1 from the lodestone was certainly more useful throughout all three games (I think we only ever got into Unbinding once, and that was in my third game). As for summoning, yes I used it and wow does it change the way the army plays. I enjoyed it thoroughly, though again, I didn't get to use it much in my first and second games due to alpha strikes. I think I will tie it into my lists a bit more moving forward, as the first game win was due to being able to summon at a distance away from my main block to seize objectives, and I probably would have done better second game had I been a little smarter with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I like the ring personally as it lets me use the VL agressively if need be, and if your akready summoning you have the points. After turn 3 if shes not did than i take the points i was saving on her and use them to summon other stuff. Its mostly to counter skaven/stormcast/sylvaneth shooting alpha strike. Unbinding in AoS happens quote rarely as the range restriction is on two dudes who usualy want to be as far away from the action as they can muster. Though the double corpse cart does interest me. Im just not surei even care about the corpse cart some times. It feels kind of just like alittle more damage, and if it dies than it saved a few zombies or something haha. Also here is a pick of my two mortis engines and how i spiced them up. Use battle mages to make them look different and places the banshees in different spots. One has the book in front while the other guy hold his own book. I used the skeleton box to get some swords instead of lances... as i feel like those lances are designed to break. Anywho cant wait to hear more keep throwing out updates man!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorPenguin Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 @mmimzie those Mortis Engines look mint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count von Count Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 Hey guys! Just an update, I am taking part in a significantly larger tournament in March. Since my last round of games, I've made some tweaks to the list. Vampire Lord -Wings, Chalice, General Count Mannfred Necromancer Wight King -Black Axe Cairn Wraith Banshee 40 Zombies 20 Zombies 20 Zombies 10 Zombies 10 Zombies Mortis Engine Corpse Cart -Lodestone Corpsecart -Lodestone 5 Dire Wolves 2 Morghast Archai 3 Spirit Hosts 1980 Points The few changes I've made are simply some of the things I've begun to adapt as I've gotten more used to summoning. Simply put, a lot of the list doesn't even get placed on the board outside of the large blocks of zombies, corpse carts, and the four unsummonable heroes to get a summoning pool. Spirit Hosts have simply performed super well for me as objective snatchers in some recent games; plant them in cover or hit 'em with a mystic shield, and they don't budge at all. I've also found that a unit of six with some buffs thrown in from the vampire lord do major damage in mortal wounds. As for the Banshee, I know most people don't like them. However, having one or two in my pocket has done wonders against low bravery lists like Skaven, Freeguild, and Orruks. Combine those screeches with the Mortis Engine and I've decimated units with mortal wounds! Now, the one thing I am fearing this time is the proliferation of the Cunnin' Ruk in my local scene; I simply haven't thought of a good counter! I can probably win a lot of those games off of objectives, but the amount of shots simply destroys entire units at a time. Mmimzie, any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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