Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[MOMUS]

Is Skar blood wrath up in points? I though I saw it mentioned.

[Gilby]

5 hours ago, MOMUS said:

Is Skar blood wrath up in points? I though I saw it mentioned.

Nope, 80 points still.

[Killax]

Other as Karanak I cant really find much to be happy about. Especially because of how Endless Spells work...

[NemoVonUtopia]

2 hours ago, Gilby said:

Nope, 80 points still.

Wow, since I presume that his resurrection will be points free this seems insanely good. The one game I've used him in he won me thr game by taking all the ranged fire from my enemy and coming back on an objective.

[TheOtherJosh]

40 minutes ago, Killax said:

Other as Karanak I cant really find much to be happy about. Especially because of how Endless Spells work...

I don’t need at least 8 BT points to bring any Khorne Daemon on the table. I now only need a minimum of 2. And I can get something Summoned.

Skarr doesn’t cost for me to bring him back.

They mentioned early on that there would be “something coming” for Endless Spells and non-summoning armies. It just “wasn’t here yet”.

Multiple heroes are down in points.

And the new realm Artefacts are insane.

[Charles]

Does anyone know if Skarbrand has come down in points? 

In AoS 1 it was crazy that he was 60 points more than a Great Unclean one or Kairos Fateweaver as they are both vastly superior greater Deamons.  The Laviadon was also miles better than him but cheaper. 

[Gilby]

Anyone who is wondering about points might find this video at 5:08 useful...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5dPQlBw8PI

 

[Mikeymajq]

I thought bloodletters went up 50 pts. ? just 10 more isn't that bad.

Skull cannon went down in pts, again. And I'm still not convinced I will use mine again ?

Kinda sad Skarbrand didn't lose a few pts.

[Xasz]

1 hour ago, Mikeymajq said:

I thought bloodletters went up 50 pts. ? just 10 more isn't that bad.

Skull cannon went down in pts, again. And I'm still not convinced I will use mine again ?

Kinda sad Skarbrand didn't lose a few pts.

+50 on a maxed out unit, compared to previous GHB. (270 -> 320)

[TheAdequateWargamer]

3 hours ago, Killax said:

Other as Karanak I cant really find much to be happy about. Especially because of how Endless Spells work...

Not seen them myself yet, but it sounds like the new matched play battle plans have deployment 9" away from the middle. So potentially only 18" away from your opponent. That could open up some turn 1, wok, stoke, run + charge fun.

Also with unbind being 30 that would mean youre pretty much in range from the off.

Karanak/skarr they are certainly better value for their points now, but I see the big downside being that they are going to take a leader slot that is often in very short supply.

[Killax]

11 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

I don’t need at least 8 BT points to bring any Khorne Daemon on the table. I now only need a minimum of 2. And I can get something Summoned.

Skarr doesn’t cost for me to bring him back.

They mentioned early on that there would be “something coming” for Endless Spells and non-summoning armies. It just “wasn’t here yet”.

Multiple heroes are down in points.

And the new realm Artefacts are insane.

Well sure but in the larger context we still need to have units dissapear before we can create new ones anyway. In the larger context this is one of the mediocre to bad summonning rules/options. The way I see "something comming" will likely thake a long while as it would make no sence to me to counter their new product line that basically boosts 90% of the armies out there.

In the larger context the Bloodsecrator is up 20 points. Which basically negates the reduction found on other Heroes. While it's cool that the realm Artefacts are insane so are the Endless Spells we can't stop.  So yeah, other as Karanak, not too much to cheer about from my perspective. Again the Mortal Daemons in Blades of Khorne are non-excistant, which is the biggest oddity in Khorne vs Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh. With the way Bloodletters are increased in cost now the logical step would actually have been to make at least the Mighty Lord and Lord on Juggernaut Mortal Daemon also. Why? Because the Nurgle equivelant (plaguebearers also at max 320) do also enjoy the same design that a Rotbringer Hero on Plaguedrone has (Mortal Daemon).

11 hours ago, Charles said:

In AoS 1 it was crazy that he was 60 points more than a Great Unclean one or Kairos Fateweaver as they are both vastly superior greater Deamons.  The Laviadon was also miles better than him but cheaper. 

No, Skarbrand is still 400 points. Plus we cannot summon him anymore  

8 hours ago, Mikeymajq said:

I thought bloodletters went up 50 pts. ? just 10 more isn't that bad.

Skull cannon went down in pts, again. And I'm still not convinced I will use mine again ?

Kinda sad Skarbrand didn't lose a few pts.

Basically all that went down went down with 10 points and as above in the larger context of the Bloodsecrato going up 20 points it doesn't really matter.
If the Mighty Lord of Khorne with Fleshhound obtained the logical Daemon and Mortal Keyword I'd be excited by his cost reduction. Though this isn't the case.

Khorne since day 1 revolved around 1) Bloodsecrator and 2) Bloodletters to remain valid in the competitive scene. Not only has the Bloodsecrator been massively reduced in effectiveness it now also has been increased in cost. Likewise a 50 point increase in Bloodletters actually makes it very hard to justify Khorne for competitive play.

While I don't post too much these days I am usually very positive about Khorne. But now, knowing what is still around elsewhere I'd say Khorne has become a tier 2/3 army. Doesn't matter too much but strike me very impressed if Khorne makes a top 4 appearance. 

41 minutes ago, TheAdequateWargamer said:

Not seen them myself yet, but it sounds like the new matched play battle plans have deployment 9" away from the middle. So potentially only 18" away from your opponent. That could open up some turn 1, wok, stoke, run + charge fun.

Also with unbind being 30 that would mean youre pretty much in range from the off.

Karanak/skarr they are certainly better value for their points now, but I see the big downside being that they are going to take a leader slot that is often in very short supply.

Oh yeah WoK is still potent, I have a list in mind that still runs two Bloodletter bombs and just skipped on a Battalion so I can run Karanak and Bloodstokers (2x). Unbinding certainly is quite doable. But what actually happed in my opinion with the Endless Spells is that more Balewind Vortex equivelents entered the game. Better put, it's the only spell per turn that really matters a lot to succeed. 

I think that Karanak is our gift for this edition. Skarr's return is nice but also requires us to jump through certain hoops and perhaps even more importantly not forget about him or his triggers. Which sounds silly but is something I'd do.

Karanak on the other hand allows you to pick quary: Bloodsecrator. Move towards it, summon the Fleshhounds in front/near the Bloodsecrator+Bloodstokers and have a decent protection unit hanging near them. This matters because while shooting on paper became a little worse we became even more dependant on making our few 'death stars' work.

Blood Tithe
If anything I am also not that optimistic about Blood Tithe points in this edition because I have a feeling we will only see more Deathstars over MSU.  By large because of how CP and Command Abilities are used now and thus cranking up 1 unit becomes amazing and thus every army will likely include such a unit twice to win the game.

[Dan.Ford]

Chaos alliance command traits have taken big set back.

Blades of khorne :

Blood tithe and summoning , One or the other for points is not good.
Most games A khorne player will only killed between 3-10 units average.
And the 3 bloodthirsters which can be summoned with a 4 up save is not great (260+ points )
Compaired  to one command point for 40 skeletons in death.

Having a wizard in army will only mean more drops , so it will only get killed first by other player.
It's not great in short

But I will give 2-3 lists a try

[TheAdequateWargamer]

 

Reckon that yes, there are some big bad combos out there, but they all take command points and hero placement to activate.

There will be a compromise on something. 

 

Im expecting we will see more chaff in armies to act as an ablative buffer to big hitting units rather than just token battleline that is common today. Hopefully some easy bloodtithe points to be gained there.

 

Going to call it and say I see 2 bloodtithe points being used to spam out batches of 5 bloodletters or heralds being a thing. A pretty big thing! Forget the bloodthirsters (they are plop without artifacts anyway) i want 50% recycle on bloodtithe points from unit removal. If you can get early board position then turns 3/4/5 you should have waves of fodder to throw at your opponent, or clog up where they can summon/resummon things.

 

Probably need some form of rearguard now with all the summoning.

Need more fast reaction/throwaway pieces to quickly hit units that get caught out/open to occupy them for a turn.

Or bloodbind to pull a unit/hero out of buffing range.

 

Combat will be more extreme, either quick and brutal, or weak units slogging it out.

Bloodsecrator +20 pts. You can justify this with the command points it will save on inspiring presence. Or the points that dont have to keep in the bank for a 'just in case' moment.

 

Also objectives have a scoring precident for heros with artifacts/wizards holding them. Maybe some previously overlooked khorne artifacts could be used if seeing opp heros/wizards up front and centre is a more regular occurance.

 

Endless spells-

if youre not playing against tzeentch or death how many will your opponent actually take? If its just one, then controlling it is going to influence the decisions made for who wins the priority roll. Give the khorne player the double turn he has just setup.. Or is that purple sun going back their way?

 

Its going to be a task for opponents to balance wizards, spells, chaff, herostacking abilities, big units vs having enough units to effectively claim and hold multiple objectives. 

 

Speculation aside, lets see what happens when the books actually hit the shelves and we can dive into the minutae and not the initial reactions that are usually over egged isolated views from podcasts/leaks etc

 

Despite some initial negativity (points increases and summoning not exceeding expectations), all im seeing is some seriously good opportunities for fun tactical games, and I really cant wait.

[Charles]

Is it confirmed we loose our regular Blood Tithe abilities in order to summon? It’s not a separate table?

If that is the case will Tzeench loose their fate dice if they summon, or Nurgle loose disgustingly resilient if they summon?

[Sehryth7]

This on a bloodmaster might make up for those points increases. 

GW are being abit vague on if they are matched play viable. 

[TheAdequateWargamer]

6 minutes ago, Charles said:

Is it confirmed we loose our regular Blood Tithe abilities in order to summon? It’s not a separate table?

If that is the case will Tzeench loose their fate dice if they summon, or Nurgle loose disgustingly resilient if they summon?

Nope, we use bloodtithe points as summon Or abilities

Tzeentch/nurgle etc get summoning And abilities

Boo!

[Killax]

1 hour ago, Dan.Ford said:

Chaos alliance command traits have taken big set back.

Blades of khorne :

Blood tithe and summoning , One or the other for points is not good.
Most games A khorne player will only killed between 3-10 units average.
And the 3 bloodthirsters which can be summoned with a 4 up save is not great (260+ points )
Compaired  to one command point for 40 skeletons in death.

Having a wizard in army will only mean more drops , so it will only get killed first by other player.
It's not great in short

But I will give 2-3 lists a try

Yeah massive, on top of that the only two top tier competitive units in Khorne (Bloodsecrator and Bloodletters) have been drastically increased in cost. Or at least that's how I view it in the larger context of what actually made Khorne armies click in the first place.

Currently I'd even say that units killed nearing 8-10 is a very optimistic prospect. While it's true that some points can return to us I also (as above) see this meta shift towards more big relevant units and some chaff, but not that much at all. The only MSU that I do see is stuff that comes forth from summonning. But as this is placed away from enemy units I'd also say that this isn't an easy BT generation guarantee.

I think you proved it the best by summonning comparisons elsewhere. Not only Legions does it better but pretty much everybody does. Including Tzeentch and Nurgle who have an "additional" Command Trait by comparison while we have a new one that eats away BT resources on two ends. And to kick it further down it also eats away all BT, regardless of kills. So we don't stack anything. Unlike all other factions afaik.

22 minutes ago, TheAdequateWargamer said:

 

Reckon that yes, there are some big bad combos out there, but they all take command points and hero placement to activate.

There will be a compromise on something. 

Im expecting we will see more chaff in armies to act as an ablative buffer to big hitting units rather than just token battleline that is common today. Hopefully some easy bloodtithe points to be gained there.

 

Going to call it and say I see 2 bloodtithe points being used to spam out batches of 5 bloodletters or heralds being a thing. A pretty big thing! Forget the bloodthirsters (they are plop without artifacts anyway) i want 50% recycle on bloodtithe points from unit removal. If you can get early board position then turns 3/4/5 you should have waves of fodder to throw at your opponent, or clog up where they can summon/resummon things.

 

Probably need some form of rearguard now with all the summoning.

Need more fast reaction/throwaway pieces to quickly hit units that get caught out/open to occupy them for a turn.

Or bloodbind to pull a unit/hero out of buffing range.

 

Combat will be more extreme, either quick and brutal, or weak units slogging it out.

Bloodsecrator +20 pts. You can justify this with the command points it will save on inspiring presence. Or the points that dont have to keep in the bank for a 'just in case' moment.

 

Also objectives have a scoring precident for heros with artifacts/wizards holding them. Maybe some previously overlooked khorne artifacts could be used if seeing opp heros/wizards up front and centre is a more regular occurance.

 

Endless spells-

if youre not playing against tzeentch or death how many will your opponent actually take? If its just one, then controlling it is going to influence the decisions made for who wins the priority roll. Give the khorne player the double turn he has just setup.. Or is that purple sun going back their way?

 

Its going to be a task for opponents to balance wizards, spells, chaff, herostacking abilities, big units vs having enough units to effectively claim and hold multiple objectives. 

 

Speculation aside, lets see what happens when the books actually hit the shelves and we can dive into the minutae and not the initial reactions that are usually over egged isolated views from podcasts/leaks etc

 

Despite some initial negativity (points increases and summoning not exceeding expectations), all im seeing is some seriously good opportunities for fun tactical games, and I really cant wait.

- Why do you feel chaff will suddenly enter this game? Big units are still rewarded in cost efficiency and that reduced points easily accumulate to points available for Endless Spells. These spells beat chaff, chaff can be summoned.
- I think using 2 BT for 5 Bloodletters is the perfect recipy for adding hero utility for our opponent. Small D3 mortal wound spells suddenly do something against 5 man units.
- Karnak, the Khorne light of this edition, is certainly the prime choice to include cheap bodies.
- A Bloodsecrator will always be part of this army because else there is no reason to even play Khorne. The question is if the added 20 points is justified with the 'nerf' in mind. To me the awnser to that still simply stands, it's a no. We can discuss added protection for key characters but a Slann is still not a Monster so even that flag doesn't wave for me  
- While some of the Endless spells seem balanced on paper in practice the use of them and the one who will use it the first still has the biggest advantage. It works exactly even better into chaff too.

I think the overall game massively improved. It's just that year after year no intrest from GW's side into Khorne has lead us to (imho):
GH2016 - Khorne Tier 1
GH2017 - Khorne Tier 1.5/2
AoS2 - Khorne Tier 2/3

As before though, this only matters for competitive events ofcourse.

20 minutes ago, Charles said:

Is it confirmed we loose our regular Blood Tithe abilities in order to summon? It’s not a separate table?

If that is the case will Tzeench loose their fate dice if they summon, or Nurgle loose disgustingly resilient if they summon?

Yes it's confirmed. Feel free to PM if you want to see it.

Tzeentch doesn't lose Fate Dice when they Summon.
Nurgle doesn't lose Cycle of Infestation when they Summon.  I don't even believe that the Blight Points reset.

Thake from that what you will. Feel free to mail Games Workshop. I know I will eventually.

[Charles]

 

1 hour ago, Killax said:

Yes it's confirmed. Feel free to PM if you want to see it.

Tzeentch doesn't lose Fate Dice when they Summon.
Nurgle doesn't lose Cycle of Infestation when they Summon.  I don't even believe that the Blight Points reset.

Thake from that what you will. Feel free to mail Games Workshop. I know I will eventually.

Damn ☹️

I am going to the AoS open day so will ask the questions directly. 

Skarbrand being a key one, then why Khorne summoning costs us our allegiance abilities and doesn’t cost the other armies anything.

[chord]

Maybe in this edition we will need to look to allies to help us out?  Monsters of Chaos have some interesting options.  The cockatrice and chimera have shooting attacks that autohit and can fly.   The jabberslythe can dish out mortal wounds each time its injured and also flies .   They also tend to be low point values (at least in GHB 2017).  

Sure these allies don't help against magic (unless you count the shooting attacks for sniping)  

[Mikeymajq]

At 140 I'd still take the bloodsecrator but with inspiring presence being reactive and a few other bravery buffs I'm actually thinking of at least trying some lists without him. Altough the +1 attack will be missed.

I hate crutches, and a model just standing there planting his banner is super boring. It's just that... It kinda feels like bloodsecrators are not just a crutch but both our legs as well

Kinda wish he could move with the banner. Like the Fyreslayer one. Then his artefacts would be at least slightly more useful, or at least fun to take. 

[Charles]

1 hour ago, Mikeymajq said:

At 140 I'd still take the bloodsecrator but with inspiring presence being reactive and a few other bravery buffs I'm actually thinking of at least trying some lists without him. Altough the +1 attack will be missed.

I hate crutches, and a model just standing there planting his banner is super boring. It's just that... It kinda feels like bloodsecrators are not just a crutch but both our legs as well

Kinda wish he could move with the banner. Like the Fyreslayer one. Then his artefacts would be at least slightly more useful, or at least fun to take. 

I’ve been saying this for ages, if you want to remove Congalining from the game they should either make he Secrator range much bigger or allow him to move while it works.

The banner should also stay there like The Fyreslayers version.

Unfortunatley all of our units are priced assuming we are getting the +1 attack and immune to battle shock.

[Killax]

4 hours ago, Mikeymajq said:

It kinda feels like bloodsecrators are not just a crutch but both our legs as well

Yup and we can't even start walking without legs. As before, with the way costs are distributed in Khorne you can't go around without Bloodsecrator and Bloodletters, even Bloodstokers are way more mandatory as many other heroes.

I just don't really get why Khorne is choked down like this... Then again it seems to have been applied for many more non top tier armies... However the cream of the crop is certainly rising to the top.

[Mikeymajq]

Yeah totally. It's super strange too, to have a guy that is basically holding the entire army together getting left behind because he can't move. In a super agressive army that needs to move fast...

Also one would expect such a role to fall on a leader not a support guy with a banner

I'd be super fine if they went the other direction and instead of allowing him to move just nerf him a bit and buff our core units so he's nice but not mandatory.

[Retro]

15 hours ago, Charles said:

 

Damn ☹️

I am going to the AoS open day so will ask the questions directly. 

Skarbrand being a key one, then why Khorne summoning costs us our allegiance abilities and doesn’t cost the other armies anything.

We don't lose the allegiance abilities as such, we just have to choose between spending the bloodtithe points on summoning OR our usual bloodtithe table. So basically it has made our bloodtithe points more flexible.

That said, other armies seem to have way better options where it isn't tied into an existing allegiance ability.

There are a couple of screen shots of the book where it is written out if you go back a page or two in this thread

[Charles]

2 hours ago, Retro said:

We don't lose the allegiance abilities as such, we just have to choose between spending the bloodtithe points on summoning OR our usual bloodtithe table. So basically it has made our bloodtithe points more flexible.

That said, other armies seem to have way better options where it isn't tied into an existing allegiance ability.

There are a couple of screen shots of the book where it is written out if you go back a page or two in this thread

Unfortunatley that’s not true though. Ben Johnson said on Warhammer TV that it was widely acknowledged that Khorne needed a substantial points decrease, however they decided to not give it to us because they gave us summoning. . . Which we can only use if we sacrifice our existing allegiance abilities. Unfortunately it just looks like something that was not thought through properly because it’s Khorne and no one in the faithful is bothered because they don’t play low tier armies.