Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[Roark]

1 hour ago, JetBlackSVW said:

If I use that many points to summon a Bloodthirster later in the game is the WoK Thirster still a good choice or you think a different BT is better?

I think it would depend entirely on the situation. If I had Letterbombs running around intact, I would prefer to have the option to catapult them around the field (WoK).

However, if there was an epic scrum going on somewhere, with lots of important enemy units, there's a great argument for trying to get Outrageous Carnage off (IR).

[TheAdequateWargamer]

I think with the new pile in rules the unfettered fury 6" pile in command ability might be a bit more relevant. 

Just in general and not knowing the specific situation WoK has to be the best to summon. Command ability is great in almost all situations and you can potentially use a shooting attack after summoning (flail) whereas the others dont have the range.

 

[TheAdequateWargamer]

Waiting to see what happens to allegiance abilities, but i reckon we have been short changed. 

Bloodtithe point drive our ability, and now its either that or summoning.

Nurgle will have both their wheel and summoning

Tzeentch will have both their dice and summoning

[Killax]

5 hours ago, JetBlackSVW said:

If I use that many points to summon a Bloodthirster later in the game is the WoK Thirster still a good choice or you think a different BT is better?

I think Roark covered it well. All Bloodthirsters are interesting I think.

Though the prospect I like, which why I think Bloodletter bombs will remain popular, is the adding of Bloodmasters.

The issue with Bloodmasters and Fleshhounds for that matter always was cost vs slots left in the army. Bloodmasters or any Daemon Hero boosts the Bloodletters even more. Now we can place it and do it rather easily.

As a result I also like that you can throw them in there for Blood Tithe returns. Likewise a Slaughterpriest with additional BT generation might be good. Though slots are hard to find.

Lastly I do agree that Nurgle and Tzeentch still seem to have the summonning upper hand. Though again all boils down to costs. We dont know anything of it. All can be good or bad based on that.

[Xasz]

3 hours ago, TheAdequateWargamer said:

I think with the new pile in rules the unfettered fury 6" pile in command ability might be a bit more relevant. 

Just in general and not knowing the specific situation WoK has to be the best to summon. Command ability is great in almost all situations and you can potentially use a shooting attack after summoning (flail) whereas the others dont have the range.

 

Additional movement or general movement bonuses are almost strictly better than pile-in range, due to being less constrained. It doesn't help that summoning BTs takes the same amount of Blood Tithe and the WoK has the best overall package.

If StD gets another noticeable reduction, mixing them into BoK might become a reasonable thing. Knights, Warriors (30x halberd, 10x GS), Chosen, Marauders, Shrine even the Chariots are reasonable units, just a tad bit too expensive in some cases. Not that we need them, but especially StD heroes were grossly overpriced, except the pony lord. The Sorcerer Lord might even eclipse the Gaunt Summoner, if former receives a reduction. (although, 2 casts might just be better even with 160p summoners)

[Elevenist]

5 hours ago, TheAdequateWargamer said:

Waiting to see what happens to allegiance abilities, but i reckon we have been short changed. 

Bloodtithe point drive our ability, and now its either that or summoning.

Nurgle will have both their wheel and summoning

Tzeentch will have both their dice and summoning

You don't have to summon with your blood tithe, you have the option to.

[Xasz]

Murderhost +100

Gorepilgrims +20

Several Battalions going down or roughly staying the same.

Letters are +10/+50 (correction, math is hard)

WoK -10

Secrator +20

Karanak -10

Mighty Lord(on foot) -20

Khorgos -20

Khorgorath +10

Rest seemed the same, although points for Crushers, Reapers and Mongers were not visible.

[Dan.Ford]

I think bloodletters was 320 for 30

[Xasz]

4 minutes ago, Dan.Ford said:

I think bloodletters was 320 for 30

Yep, that is what I meant.

In a vacuum these changes are a huge nerf to Khorne.

[Dan.Ford]

The list I ran at Heat 1 and came 10th has just gone up 320 points.

 

But we all new that Points were going Up .  Thus stopping permanently the full murderhost with 90 + bloodletters.

[Xasz]

Kinda expected this to happen but some people were so sure around here that we won't see substantial increases...

Points for the last 3 units will be interesting and obviously for StD.

EDIT: Brass Stampede is seemingly +20 as well

[Dan.Ford]

One 30 will majority of the time get shot down too below 20 . So no more +1 to hit. 

And with the lose of Damned terrain  to help out the weaken unit or units of 10 bloodletters , it's not looking too good . 

Bloodletters have taken a hit,  

A lot of armies now have debuffs , so we could be hitting on 5's .

Army book not fully released yet , so I will have  a good look to see if  Khorne Daemons armies can still be competitive at events vs all comers . 

 

[Phantajisto]

So my planned listed has gone up 90pts... but on the bright side, I get to summon a bloodthirster when 8 units die

[Rumblefish]

4 hours ago, Elevenist said:

You don't have to summon with your blood tithe, you have the option to.

Right...but the point being made is that other armies aren't choosing between their summoning and their other allegiance ability. They get to do both of those things.

[Broken Netcode]

2 hours ago, Xasz said:

Murderhost +100

Gorepilgrims +20

Several Battalions going down or roughly staying the same.

Letters are +10/+60

WoK -10

Secrator +20

Karanak -10

Mighty Lord(on foot) -20

Khorgos -20

Khorgorath +10

Rest seemed the same, although points for Crushers, Reapers and Mongers were not visible.

Brass Stampede also +20

It seems they're subtly trying to stamp out the main tournament builds which is both a good thing and a bad thing!

[Roark]

Rules as written, you can nominate one of your own heroes to be Karanak's quarry for his free summon. Makes it a lot easier to get off. (FAQ in 3, 2, 1...)

;-)

[Broken Netcode]

4 minutes ago, Roark said:

Rules as written, you can nominate one of your own heroes to be Karanak's quarry for his free summon. Makes it a lot easier to get off. (FAQ in 3, 2, 1...)

?

Add in Blood Sacrifice and you got some good smelling Brie right there.

[Bosmer Nightblade]

I think Skarbrand on the field and then msu reavers, just to generate tithe.

[Roark]

5 minutes ago, Broken Netcode said:

Add in Blood Sacrifice and you got some good smelling Brie right there.

Thing is, you don't even need to attack your own hero with Karanak (I don't think you can anyway). You just nominate him, park Karanak near him, and pop out the Flesh-hounds whenever you want.

But yes, the curd is rather pungent...

[Roark]

Flesh-hounds are Battleline for Khorne!

[Killax]

A while ago I wrote something on how Bloodsecrator and Bloodletters were currently the two units keeping us afloat. Those rose 20 and respectively 50 points. So yeah, I think we are officially Tier 2 now. As I do not expect massive cost changes (if any) in the newer Battletomes because they were intended to be played with 2nd edition. 

So how I feel about this? Well, I will still play Khorne, though I don't think tournament winning intentions match with this army anymore. We still need (or I) to see Battalion, Skullreaper and Wrathmonger costs, because oddly enough they arn't in the spoiled list of costs. We shall see...

Not to fearmonger but I can say that due to the two changes to Bloodsecrator and Bloodletters things will be a lot harder to validate now. Especially as we did not recieve the equivelant of Magic attack boosts this edition gave.

On the plus side, Karanak is 90, and the unit he summons has a cost of 100 and is free.  

[Xasz]

You should be able to get all the points for the battalions as well.

The info is from BoLS (the only site worse than 4chan/tg...) and their preview video. For the first page of Khorne we get a pretty good shot and I've summarized all the changes. The second one is rather hard to read and in most cases we only see the point values. Due to no changes in the total amount of BoK battalions, you could count the rows and map the values to the order from GHB2017. I just looked up the most prominent battalions and a few others, to get the general idea.

Concerning Crushers, Reapers and Mongers, they are on the battalion page as well and sadly the person handling the book is holding it in a way that there is only the last column visible for those.

[Killax]

8 hours ago, Xasz said:

Murderhost +100

Gorepilgrims +20

Several Battalions going down or roughly staying the same.

Letters are +10/+60

WoK -10

Secrator +20

Karanak -10

Mighty Lord(on foot) -20

Khorgos -20

Khorgorath +10

Rest seemed the same, although points for Crushers, Reapers and Mongers were not visible.

Yep and if this is the summery I don't really know what we are supposed to do (in a vacuume).
With Murderhost at 220, Gore Pilgrims at 200 things are getting very rough...

Letters are the +10/+50 so two units can still be used but using a third unit seems close to impossible to me. Which matters because it once was our floating device  
The small increases and reductions are nice. Don't really know why the Bloodscrator needed another bonus on top of his (presumably still in effect AoS1 errata?) current design.

Otherwise yeah the changes arn't too impactful but hitting key Heroes and Battleline units is rather massive. My opinion on this would change again if the Bloodsecrator would be like his old GH2016 variant...

Does anyone know if AoS1 Errata's still apply for AoS2? Did any of the gameplay or videos or articles went into that? As can be guessed I only follow info on Khorne and thats about it right now.

[Dan.Ford]

Tier 2 for Daemons of Khorne is a solid call , if they do not change/ drop  all the other battalions that were set so high and not consistently taken.

 

[Xasz]

No info on the FAQ but it is likely that it will stay in effect, if they are not rewriting the scrolls or replacing the FAQ entries in another way. Furthermore, GW rarely reverses clarifications, so I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Concerning Khorne, it seems like we arrived at destination f'd with this book. I know that some people will force the "it's just in a vacuum and letters are still great in BoK, duh!" but I doubt we'll see them a whole lot in the future. (I can still see armies with maybe 2 units and a WoK but that's about it)

Considering that several "core-elements" of Khorne got hit, this will probably not add up to a happy ending. I somewhat expected them to nerf Khorne because of the summoning change, but hoped I would be wrong in the end. Realistically, summoning will not be that useful to us. Especially as it competes with the normal Blood Tithe abilities and only gets reasonable at 5+ (unit sizes are rather small). Not to mention that Blood Tithe points are accumulated rather slow, are spent entirely on activation and we cannot buff summoned units as they are set up at the end of movement.

The one variable still out there is StD, they might help the mortals somewhat and yes the 3 units we currently have no values for. Although I expect Mongers to go down 10, Reapers following the same suit and Crushers going up 10. Bloodmarked Warband will most likely see an increase as well, probably 40 to 60 points.

I highly doubt a preemptive nerf for Khorne was warranted, as we were not on the same level as Tzeentch or Nurgle before AoS2.0 and we didn't even get a detached summoning system like them.