Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[Killax]

11 minutes ago, Lardidar said:

Not looking at it being the most competitive but do you think it could be fun to play?  Anyone with any exp of a similar list?

Well with the new edition comming up and the massive inpact it has on the Core rules I'd say just go for it if you fancy it. Experiences of previous editions don't really apply. Be it AoS or even WFB. Especially the way Magic and Summonning works now is a massive change. So while the units on paper seem largely the same, the rest isn't. Likewise costs will still need to decide if the Battalion is still going strong.

So I'd say grab some Thirsters, paint and wait.

[Xasz]

17 hours ago, tolstedt said:

This is going to be so broken if they don't FAQ the Bloodmarked warband.

Gore Pilgrims with WoK, Secrator, 3 Priests and Gaunt summoner/Stoker seems more appealing to me. This way the list is more flexible and can generate points reliably. (+ daemon synergies with Bloodletters)

I still have the feeling that Khorne will be hit hard, either by the magic expansion or changes in point values, or even both. (I expect them to nerf Murderhost hard, for no particular reason...)

Either way, the new edition is still so far away.  

[Killax]

I don't really think they will hit Murderhost that hard to be honest. Prime reason being that due to the many Summon options and general speed up of relevant abilities 'speed' isn't that much of a difference maker. For sure charging and hitting first is a thing, but that is no guarantee with Murderhost. Unless you dive really hard into all Heroes required to support that.

What I do think is that Battalions in general will seem expensive. Logical also because they also obtain you CP. At the same time, more now then ever, not running Battalions will largely (greatly) reward summonning heavier armies to out-swarm opponents and all of that. So the end result that I expect is that usually one Battalion will be taken, that's about it.

In terms of points, really anything can go. Back in 2016 I didn't expect 30 Bloodletters to recieve a discount in GH2017...  Likewise I didn't expect Bloodcrushers to be more expensive as Skullcrushers. So yeah, costs for the design teams sometimes seem like a rough sketch. Not that it matter too much as that can be applied if it applies to all.

I'm eager to see what Karanak's cost will be. I also still assume that bringing Skarr back is free?
@Xasz what's the news on the Gaunt Summoner? Been busy these days and all non-Khorne info went completely over my head. 

[chord]

The 20 chaos warhounds I use in my khorne army will be much better in this version.  If I split them into 2x10 units then they still move really fast (10/16) and can tie up enemy shooting units, plus they die fast giving me BT points for which to summon earlier. 

[Xasz]

4 hours ago, Killax said:

@Xasz what's the news on the Gaunt Summoner? 

Nothing I am aware of, he's just a stellar stand-alone wizard.

[TheOtherJosh]

7 hours ago, Killax said:

I also still assume that bringing Skarr back is free?

I’m expecting some kind of a points bump for Skarr, especially given the implied “free” return. (He wasn’t on the list for ‘costing’. Unless they make that return cost a Command Point?) Probably by at least 40 points as a ‘bake in resurrect’ cost. As it’s a 4+ and 8 models have to have died at the end of Battleshock.

[MOMUS]

5 hours ago, chord said:

The 20 chaos warhounds I use in my khorne army will be much better in this version.  If I split them into 2x10 units then they still move really fast (10/16) and can tie up enemy shooting units, plus they die fast giving me BT points for which to summon earlier. 

Can't have the mark of khorne can they? So no tithe points?

[ledha]

21 minutes ago, MOMUS said:

Can't have the mark of khorne can they? So no tithe points?

you gain blood tithe point when a unit on the battlefield die, no matter if it's your's or your opponents, or a khornate unit of not.

[TheOtherJosh]

55 minutes ago, ledha said:

1 hour ago, MOMUS said:

Can't have the mark of khorne can they? So no tithe points?

you gain blood tithe point when a unit on the battlefield die, no matter if it's your's or your opponents, or a khornate unit of not.

Yep, it’s an “Any Units Die” thing. 1 point per unit.

The issue for the Warhounds is they have to be taken as Allies. (But they have 10 wounds for an MSU.)

Chaos Marauders would be cheaper (@60)  but aren’t as mobile. Reavers are in the same boat, but slightly more expensive (@70).

Harpies are cheaper per MSU (@70), but more expensive from a Wound perspective (only 5 wounds) ... but they have a move of 16” which is better than Warhounds. And are still only able to be Allies.

Furies can be marked as KHORNE, are cheaper than Harpies (@60) but have the same downside as Harpies with small unit size ... and they only have a 12” move, not significantly faster than the warhound, and don’t get a guaranteed 6 run move (though they do get fly). And I’m not as fond of the models. I’d probably see about doing a 40k Tyranid Gargoyle conversion perhaps?

But they are all faster than Flesh Hounds... and cheaper.

[MOMUS]

11 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Yep, it’s an “Any Units Die” thing. 1 point per unit.

The issue for the Warhounds is they have to be taken as Allies. (But they have 10 wounds for an MSU.)

Hmmm still not 100% sold, in the GHB it specifically states that allied units don't change the allegiance but cannot use the allegiance ability.

At the moment I'm using reavers as quick tithe point units, but currently have marauder horsemen on the painting table. I'm sure plenty of StD units will get a point ding.

[TheAdequateWargamer]

26 minutes ago, MOMUS said:

Hmmm still not 100% sold, in the GHB it specifically states that allied units don't change the allegiance but cannot use the allegiance ability.

At the moment I'm using reavers as quick tithe point units, but currently have marauder horsemen on the painting table. I'm sure plenty of StD units will get a point ding.

You definitely generate points for any units being wiped out.

But pretty sure you can only spend those points to use your blood tithe table abilities on your own normal

non allied units

[Killax]

Yeah it accumulates both ways in a "Khorne cares not fashion" very fluffy to be honest.
It's also very much kept in check though as useage of the satck means it's empty afterwards.

So far I still have little reason to believe that our summonning because of it will be insane. However adding things for 2 or 3 Blood Tithe points is great and often better as our alyternative choices. For example adding a Bloodmaster in particular is awesome if we can still run Bloodletters in good quantities for a nice price.

In the end it's the Pitched Battle Points who decide how relevant the unit is, most stats or possible added abilities in Khorne are relevant. 

[Galdenistal]

I like the idea of summoning in the cheaper daemon heroes, our hero slots are very contested so having a way of 'kind of' bypassing that could be useful.

I'm not seeing a great deal of use in summoning in 5 or 10 Bloodletters, 9" away from the enemy. Its an expensive resource to use to create a chaff unit to block a charge lane, and by the 2nd or 3rd turn there aren't many free objectives around to plop them onto.

[chord]

18 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Yep, it’s an “Any Units Die” thing. 1 point per unit.

The issue for the Warhounds is they have to be taken as Allies. (But they have 10 wounds for an MSU.)

Chaos Marauders would be cheaper (@60)  but aren’t as mobile. Reavers are in the same boat, but slightly more expensive (@70).

Harpies are cheaper per MSU (@70), but more expensive from a Wound perspective (only 5 wounds) ... but they have a move of 16” which is better than Warhounds. And are still only able to be Allies.

Furies can be marked as KHORNE, are cheaper than Harpies (@60) but have the same downside as Harpies with small unit size ... and they only have a 12” move, not significantly faster than the warhound, and don’t get a guaranteed 6 run move (though they do get fly). And I’m not as fond of the models. I’d probably see about doing a 40k Tyranid Gargoyle conversion perhaps?

But they are all faster than Flesh Hounds... and cheaper.

Good Break down!

Some things that warhounds also provide

1.   Base size!.  They are on oval Calvary bases which is a pretty good size foot print, and 20 of them when positioned right can really give you a lot of board control, especially since most teleporting armies have to stay 9" away.  And with the oval base by turning them you can push the opponent's teleporting units a little further away. 

2.  When I run my 20 together as a group, if I use inspiring presence they make a great roadblock, or objective holder, since my opponent will have to dish out at least 20 wounds to get rid of them.  Sure they will die and have a 6+ save but for the points per wound its great.  And when they die more BT.  

3. Psychological.    My opponents even when seeing how bad the warhounds are in combat can't resist attacking the giant horde of them. 

Sure they're not for everyone but I've had pretty good luck with them so far.  

[MOMUS]

1 hour ago, Galdenistal said:

I like the idea of summoning in the cheaper daemon heroes, our hero slots are very contested so having a way of 'kind of' bypassing that could be useful.

I'm not seeing a great deal of use in summoning in 5 or 10 Bloodletters, 9" away from the enemy. Its an expensive resource to use to create a chaff unit to block a charge lane, and by the 2nd or 3rd turn there aren't many free objectives around to plop them onto.

I had the same thoughts regarding the hero slots and letter buffs.

Smaller letter units would be good for late game objective grabbing in my eyes. If they finish off a unit/hero and then are killed in return you can then bring them on again.

The ability to have the units drop in late game adds to the flexible play of multi  priest multi unit army I'm trying at the mo.

[Agent of Chaos]

Given we can summon letters, do we think the the Khorne meta will move away from the letter bomb as a starting list? No doubt the letter bomb will remain effective, however now we can pack a list with all the mortal units we maybe couldnt fit in before (i.e. wrathmongers, skullreapers, warshrine, chaos warriors, etc) knowing that we can summon letters later in the battle. My initial thought was that I didnt want to see lists dedicated to generating bloodtithe for summoning purposes however if you dont adapt you die (yes I know, Khorne cares not) so Im finding myself rethinking the sort of lists I will run. So far it seems we will need multiple methods for unbinding together with bloodtithe generation in order to be competitive.

[TheOtherJosh]

3 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

Given we can summon letters, do we think the the Khorne meta will move away from the letter bomb as a starting list? [...]

Given that it is indicated you can’t get a Summoned group of 30, I’m not sure how much that will change. But we might see more varied options and MSU setups.

[gertat]

Today I played against my buddy and we play mostly what we think is fun

This is my list

Alligance: Khorne

Leaders
Skaarac the Bloodborn (500)
- General
Bloodstoker (80)
Bloodstoker (80)
Daemon Prince of Khorne (160)
Daemon Prince of Khorne (160)
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars(120)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Flails
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Flails & Shields
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Axes
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Axes
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Axes

Units
1 x Khorgoraths (80)

1 x Khorgoraths (80)

1 x Khorgoraths (80)

1 x Khorgoraths (80)

1 x Khorgoraths (80)

1 x Khorgoraths (80)

Behemoths
Jabberslythe (120)
- Allies

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 240 / 400
Wounds: 155

 

And my friend played a Slaanesh list of

Chaod Lord on daemonic mount

Keeper of Secrets

Chaos sorcerer Lord

Sayl

Chaod Lord on daemonic mount

30 x Daemonettes of Slaanesh

10 x  Hellstriders of Slaanesh

5 x Warriors of Chaos
Soul Grinder
Chaos Knights

We played Knife to the heart and I won a minor victory 

After 1,5 turn I was up to 8 Bloodtithe, used them and after another turn I got 5 more

Have tryed to play the - bravery bomb and got if off in the way of -3 bravery but it was against Knights so it never gave any effect.

Thinks its better against low wound modells/units

Khorgoraths is always good but this time I think stocked twin Daemon princes with run and charge from Skaarac was WIP. One of them had Mark of the Slayer

Dont think Skaarac worth his points, thinking of removing him and adding 2 Wrath Bloodthirsters Shall think of what to remove

With the new rules I could hade an extra Bloodthirster after 2 turns

[Phantajisto]

Photo from White Dwarf in case anyone missed it:

Easy to read on ipad screen but yrmv.

[Roark]

So apparently Ben and Martin from GW said that Khorne points are mostly staying the same. They apparently thought we needed a reduction, but this was offset by our summoning ability (from p138 of Age of Sigmar: Second Edition thread in Age of Sigmar News forum).

[Agent of Chaos]

Thats promising. We certainly didnt warrant an increase! Really looking forward to a cheaper warshrine. Will be interesting to see if anything else goes down.

[Agent of Chaos]

Still tricky to read the new summoning rulew but I believe I have identified the following;

• Summoning is in addition to the regular bloodtithe table, giving us quite a few options;
• We can summon as many daemon units as the current number of bloodtithe points allows. Any unspent points are lost;
• Summoning happens at the end of the movement phase so no blood stoking/killing frenzy, etc and units must be within 12" of a khorne hero (and obviously 9"away from the enemy); and
• 8 points on the old table (i.e. Blood Pact) simply sends you back to the summoning table i.e. only units on the summoning table can be summoned. The benefit being you can summon in the hero phase (although they still can't move), thus getting to buff the unit with hero abilities (i.e. bloodstoker in order to make that 9" charge), and that it can be anywhere on the table and not within 12" of a khorne hero.

Can anyone who can read it clearly confirm or deny the above? 

Tactical Points/Questions;

• I assume there is no change to the rule that 8 points is the most you can accrue with additional points being wasted?
• If you have 8 points and want to summon a bloodthirster, why would you summon in the movement phase when Blood Pact lets you summon in the hero phase and without needing to be within 12" of a hero?
• Is it possible to spend bloodtithe in the hero phase on the old table (losing any unspent points), generate more bloodtithe in the same turn (looking at you slaughterpriests with blood sacrifice) and then summon daemons in that turn's movement phase?
• The new command ability to reroll charges after a failed charge could come into play for units summoned in the movement phase. Are there any other abilities useful for getting summoned units into combat (+movement auras or the like)?
• Given shooting happens after movement, skull cannons could be a good summoning option as they will be effective immediately rather than potentially having to wait for the next turn before being able to attack anything. 

[MOMUS]

2 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

 

 

• If you have 8 points and want to summon a bloodthirster, why would you summon in the movement phase when Blood Pact lets you summon in the hero phase and without needing to be within 12" of a hero?
• Is it possible to spend bloodtithe in the hero phase on the old table (losing any unspent points), generate more bloodtithe in the same turn (looking at you slaughterpriests with blood sacrifice) and then summon daemons in that turn's movement phase?
• The new command ability to reroll charges after a failed charge could come into play for units summoned in the movement phase. Are there any other abilities useful for getting summoned units into combat (+movement auras or the like)?

Points 1 + 2 you answered your own question,  example; it's the start of your hero phase and you have 8 points you NEED to summon. As you have your whole hero phase, shooting and combat phase to generate more points that would be wasted otherwise. Then initiative roll off, win OR lose you could summon again. Enemy wins you could summon/use blood tithe ability at the start of his hero phase, you win you summon/blood tho the ability start of hero phase or see if you can generate more and summon in movement phase. It's quite flexible and requires you to think ahead.

Recently I'm using the reroll charges trait and +1 to charge within 8 item on my general. I'm guna try some summoning games soon and keep him the same.

[Killax]

5 hours ago, Roark said:

So apparently Ben and Martin from GW said that Khorne points are mostly staying the same. They apparently thought we needed a reduction, but this was offset by our summoning ability (from p138 of Age of Sigmar: Second Edition thread in Age of Sigmar News forum).

Sounds both great and at the same time very untested    But Im positive on the bigger picture. By large because I would agree that importance of melee combat increased and so is the case for magic combat but we don't really have that.

However what we do need is still some clearity on if Slaughterpriests and unbinding predatory spells works in any different manner as unbinding regular spells. The article at that time suggested something different.... At the same time the Podcast suggested 18 Blood Tithe points being required for a Bloodthirster... Sooo...

More than ever I do think the global view is that Khorne will be left largely untouched because nobody really cares at GW. I'm neutral on it because it isn't always a disadvantage. I would however like to see Daemon Keywords on our Daemon  Mortal units now because we can't summon them or anything like that so another reason to 'not do it' has been removed.

Generally Im looking forward to this AoS. Melee combat matters more than ever and as a Khorne player I like this. But yes, there is enough other strong stuff out there and in general changing Core rules doesn't directly mean armies will look completely different. This only occurs when units are changed  

Cheers,

[JetBlackSVW]

If I use that many points to summon a Bloodthirster later in the game is the WoK Thirster still a good choice or you think a different BT is better?