Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[TheOtherJosh]

1 hour ago, Oldshrimpeyes said:

Alright, I think I get it. You explained that pretty well. Here comes the curve ball;

What happens with the Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount? He re rolls failed saves. If you can't re roll a re roll then this is how I see it working out:

Roll to save. He fails. Ability triggers. You take the result.

Roll to save. He passes. Roll due to paradoxical shield. You take the result.

My questions therefore are:

1)is this right?

2) is there an argument to be made for the following: can you add +2 to his save roll if you re roll the first one due to falling it? (As per his ability from MoT). The paradoxical shield does state you add 2 after re rolls but doesn't specify where the re roll has to "come from".

3) is it worth putting the shield on him at all?

Remember to keep in mind : Modifiers happen AFTER rerolls.

Your initial success (or failure) is determined prior to adding in your modifiers.

The Chaos lord on daemonic mount Tzeentch: “You can re-roll failed save rolls”

You don’t have to, you CAN ... not you must... <-This is key.

So... save of 4+ with Paradoxical shield, with the ability to Reroll failed saves.

Roll save:

Rolls a 1. This is not a success, so no forced Reroll is required. (Edit: 1 is however a guaranteed failure... so I would choose to Reroll this ...)

I can choose to Reroll failed saves. If I add my paradoxical shield is this still a failure? If yes, Reroll and hope for a 2+. As this is a Reroll, I can’t re-roll a re-roll ... so that would end the cycle.

Rend can cause issues...

i.e. Lets use a rend of -1 with the example above.

 So, Roll of 2. That’s a failure, I don’t have to Reroll. However they have a rend Of -1. If I add my 2 from paradoxical Shield I’m still failing. So I CAN Reroll that failure (and hope for a 3 or more).

If I had rolled a 3 on the other hand ... I would have not taken the Reroll for failed saves ... 3 -1 rend + 2 paradoxical = 4 

“Base” Success and Failure of Rolls are calculated before the modifiers are applied for Rolls.

It has a potential huge benefit against rend. Because you get the opportunity to Reroll known failures.

This is balanced by the force Reroll against successes. And could even benefit you ...

So, Rend Of -3 ... rolled a 4. Well technically it succeeded. 

But I lucked out, I have to Reroll. So I Reroll and hope for a 5+ (5 Roll -3 rend + 2 Shield = 4...)

I hope that helps!

[WoollyMammoth]

On 3/19/2018 at 8:16 PM, ledha said:

You tarpit the ennemy during the whole game. Because the swap is extremely free (you can swap and appear in less than 3" of the opponent, and you really "swap" only two minis and the rest of the units just have to within 9" of the initial swapped models), it's nearly free teleportation everywhere for everyone.  Example here with unit A and B that you swap, at first with model C and D and use it to "move" the units.

 

A A A A A C                                                 B B B B B D

                       D B B B B B                                                 C A A A A A

Now imagine with big units of horrors than can appear in melee, and so can go everywhere without having to keep their initial formation.

Transfering pink to blues and blues to brimstone become nearly guaranteed, so it's a ultra mobile and tough tarpit than throw hundred of weaks, but still hundred of ranged attacks while the LOC and caster throw spells wherever they want while being screened against pretty much everything

The two version are ton of horrors (like more than 150) without summoning, or much less horrors (maybe 80/90) with ton of summoning. Both are valid (the first is more effective in the early game, but the second make the number more consistent)

A very strong and tough gunline can win (you don't scare of a horror screen if you can shoot freely), but a full melee army don't have any chance. It is very good to prevent teleportation, too.

For example, in one of my game against a changehost in battle of the pass, i ran with my army, covering as much terrain as i could, taking mine and the two middle objective (so 5 pts) and imprisonning the changeling with one unit. My opponent swapped the changelin with a unit of brimstone that made a conga line trough my own objective, then this unit with another than encircled my objective and outnumbered me while being away from my menacing units. He then advance his 30-men units on the middle objectives. 9 pts. Double turn for him. 18 pts.

I didn't had any way to prevent that (except if i played a full horde army with 200 models and covering all my board) and the LOC+Gaunt are free to snipe any dangerous model/unit by magic or melee (the LOC is insanely good in melee). Most of the list don't have any counterplay against it and can just watch the horrors going wherever they want and taking objectives trough sheer numerical advantage.

Thank you.

Interesting, so its just about tarpitting and taking over the board. 

Why does everyone take the blue scribes?

James Thomas was 2nd at LVO with two units of 10 pinks, 30 blues and 3 units of 10 brims. He was only saving 100 summoning for the Vortex. Instead he had 30 Tzaangors. So was he likely using the blues to tie up at the beginning then hitting hard with the Tzaangors?

 

[ledha]

4 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Thank you.

Interesting, so its just about tarpitting and taking over the board. 

Why does everyone take the blue scribes?

James Thomas was 2nd at LVO with two units of 10 pinks, 30 blues and 3 units of 10 brims. He was only saving 100 summoning for the Vortex. Instead he had 30 Tzaangors. So was he likely using the blues to tie up at the beginning then hitting hard with the Tzaangors?

 

The blue scribes make the army extremely reliable to launch spells, and is a nearly garanteed 100% to launch any spell, even against lot of dispell from the opponent (or bloodsecrator, etc).  Then wlll learn every spell from the army and can auto-cast a spell one per game, which is very useful if the opponent start to snipe the other casters left and right. He make the casting of the whole army more reliable and consistent.

For James Thomas, well, i suppose only him can answer your question . I'm used to facing more than one hundred horrors with some summoning in backupThe strenght of the changehost is that it's very powerful is nearly all your army is part of it, but is so ridiculously cheap (120 pts for 30 brimstones, so 30 bodies and 30 wound ? With 10 bravery ? lol) than you can have place for others units. I suppose he use the horrors to hold objectives and tarpit the opponent so they can't countercharge or stop  the unit of tzaangor to destroy dangerous units one after one.

I think it's a nice way to cover the only "weakness" of the changehost : when you snipe the Lord of Change, there is no swap anymore, so a HUGE loss of mobility, and the army loose a lot of it's punch.

But i think there is more expert people than me on this subject

[Oldshrimpeyes]

16 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

 

I can choose to Reroll failed saves. If I add my paradoxical shield is this still a failure? If yes, Reroll and hope for a 2+. As this is a Reroll, I can’t re-roll a re-roll ... so that would end the cycle.

 

 

I'm sorry for keep coming back to this and I do really appreciate your help but I'm still struggling here. In that example, you are adding 2 to the initial save before anything is re rolled. But the wording of the shield suggest you only add the +2 after a re roll has been taken. 

[TheOtherJosh]

2 hours ago, Oldshrimpeyes said:

I'm sorry for keep coming back to this and I do really appreciate your help but I'm still struggling here. In that example, you are adding 2 to the initial save before anything is re rolled. But the wording of the shield suggest you only add the +2 after a re roll has been taken. 

I’m not “actually adding” it before the save.

I’m using it as a decision point to determine if I should take that Reroll opportunity using my “can Reroll” ability. The key part is the last paragraph example which I have put in bold for clarity.

Because the “can Reroll” isn’t mandatory I get to choose whether I’m going to take that Reroll or not.

Here’s the exact wording from “The Rules Faq” v1.4

“Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied?

A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied, so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll.
As an aside, when an ability says you can re-roll a failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that any modifiers will have before deciding to re-roll the dice.
For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4 or more and you have a +1 modifier, you don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied!”

In our case a “failed roll” of 2 or more would still succeed as there is a +2 modifier (assuming a unit with a save of 4+ and the attack has no rend) So we wouldn’t want to Reroll a 2 or a 3. 

[Oldshrimpeyes]

3 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

I’m not “actually adding” it before the save.

I’m using it as a decision point to determine if I should take that Reroll opportunity using my “can Reroll” ability. The key part is the last paragraph example which I have put in bold for clarity.

Because the “can Reroll” isn’t mandatory I get to choose whether I’m going to take that Reroll or not.

Here’s the exact wording from “The Rules Faq” v1.4

“Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied?

A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied, so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll.
As an aside, when an ability says you can re-roll a failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that any modifiers will have before deciding to re-roll the dice.
For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4 or more and you have a +1 modifier, you don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied!”

In our case a “failed roll” of 2 or more would still succeed as there is a +2 modifier (assuming a unit with a save of 4+ and the attack has no rend) So we wouldn’t want to Reroll a 2 or a 3. 

I get it. Phew. Thanks man you have been a superstar here. It isn't as complicated as the wording makes it look after all

[Mr. White]

On 3/19/2018 at 8:35 AM, Nevvermore said:

So what do people think about Flamers, Screamers, Exalted Flamers, Burning Chariots, and the different Heralds? Never see anyone run them because they're probably not optimal, but surely they must be playable in a normal (non-tournament) setting? To me the Burning Chariot and Herald on foot seem like they could be good, which is nice seeing as you can make both from one chariot kit. Flamers seem ok. Screamers, Exalted Flamers and Heralds on Chariot or Disc seem pretty bad.

I'm curious about this as well. I feel like I don't see these units in lists often.

I'm considering Tzeentch, but with a low Tzaangor count. I was thinking more human acolytes with flamers and screamers running around as gonzo, alien support. The modelling of these units look fun to me (most important), but is this combination unwinnable?

[RoyalDachshund]

Are Skyfires with Shaman still a good thing? Was thinking about 6 of them with some pink horrors screen and Gaunt Summoner for 1000 points force but I've heard mixed opinions about them

 

[Tasman]

Yeah, they're still pretty good. Just take the Gaunt, and put him on a vortex.

6x skyfires  400

shaman          120

GS w/ familiars  120

2x10 pinks           240

bale wind vortex 100

Use the last 60 its on blues or brimstones or even 10 marauders. Give the shaman fold reality and keep the sky fires around that way. Don't forget that if you get the charge off with them they can be pretty effective in CC.

Good luck.

[Primarch]

So was thinking of getting in to Tzeentch based on low entry cost with avaliable boxed sets and also it might be a nice change of pace compared to Sylvaneth. Anyway, this is the list I've come up with. Do you think it's any good? If not, what would you change. Have not thought about any spells or traits as I don't have the book. Mainly hoping that tzangoors and acolytes will hold objectives and that skyfires/enlightend will kill stuff

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
Herald Of Tzeentch (120)
- Staff of Change
Tzaangor Shaman (160)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Tzaangors (360)

Units
3 x Flamers Of Tzeentch (180)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened (160)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 134

[Olincay]

On 16/04/2018 at 6:51 AM, Primarch said:

So was thinking of getting in to Tzeentch based on low entry cost with avaliable boxed sets and also it might be a nice change of pace compared to Sylvaneth. Anyway, this is the list I've come up with. Do you think it's any good? If not, what would you change. Have not thought about any spells or traits as I don't have the book. Mainly hoping that tzangoors and acolytes will hold objectives and that skyfires/enlightend will kill stuff

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
Herald Of Tzeentch (120)
- Staff of Change
Tzaangor Shaman (160)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Tzaangors (360)

Units
3 x Flamers Of Tzeentch (180)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened (160)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 134

Howdy ho, if i were you I would change the following.

Skyfires in 1 unit of 6, helps keep there special activations and makes them little more survivable. 
I'd personally drop the flamers and acolytes all together since they don't really do much and replace them with another unit of pinks and bump that unit of Tzaangores to 30 for the unit discount, this also gives them an extra attack on all there weapons.
Herald of Tzeentch is cool, but for the same points you can get a Gaunt summoner with or without familiars. 

This makes your list at 1830 points which you can either leave for summoning or add another unit/hero of your choice. 
 

[Primarch]

Yeah I've been thinking of dropping the flamers and go for more pinks, as I said this lit was based on the battle force and the start collecting I get your point with the skyfires and 30 gors would look amazing. In a summoning pool should I go for blues and brims to be able to split pinks or should I go for something else?

[Trayanee]

Hello Changelings. I have always liked Tzeentch as the other chaos gods are a little boring and one-dimensional in what they do so even though I haven't even got close to finishing my previous projects, yesterday finally came the day, when I wasn't able to resist the changecult battleforce box and added the tome too. I probably won't have time to build and paint it until summer, but I was afraid It would eventually become out of stock. Now I am considering how to build around it. The Tzaangors are definitely going to become the core of the army, but I am not sure about the rest. First I wanted full Arcanite force, but the big bird is just too awesome and I feel like its thematically really aligned with the Tzaangors. It even looks more similar to them than to horrors and flamers. Which means this is sort of set in stone:

Lord of Change

Gaunt Summoner

Tzaangor Shaman

Tzaangors x30 unit

Skyfires x6 unit

Now I don't know how to complete it. The acolytes from the box are the obvious choice, but after reading through this thread, it seems to me, that they are quite useless. Maybe Marauders with mark of Tzeentch are a better choice for the other two battleline units? Also the Blue Scribes seem to add more magic superiority, but I hate the look of them sadly. Are they performing so well, that I should include them still? What about the Curseling? He looks interesting too.

[Cordova]

1 hour ago, Trayanee said:

Also the Blue Scribes seem to add more magic superiority, but I hate the look of them sadly. 

I've seen people suggest that the Burning Chariot kit can be used to make a Blue Scribes proxy - don't know if that route would fulfil your aesthetic desires? (if you go that route, have a look at the Start Collecting box, as it'd give you some summonable daemons for not much more money than the chariot, if you wanted them)

[Trayanee]

11 minutes ago, Cordova said:

I've seen people suggest that the Burning Chariot kit can be used to make a Blue Scribes proxy - don't know if that route would fulfil your aesthetic desires? (if you go that route, have a look at the Start Collecting box, as it'd give you some summonable daemons for not much more money than the chariot, if you wanted them)

Thanks for the suggestion. I will look into the conversion possibilities. I may even put some Tzaangor on the chariot to keep the theme.

[AaronWilson]

Hey guys, I'm after some advice. I only really want to use Tzaangos / Acolytes as I'm not a fan of the Deamons, I currently own 2 Tzaangor Shamans, Gaunt Summoner, Ogroid fella, 40 Tzaangors, 40 Acolytes, 9 Skyfires & 6 Enlightened. Could anyone who know the army better then me suggest a coherent 2k list without spending tooo much more? 

[Lightbox]

1 hour ago, AaronWIlson said:

Hey guys, I'm after some advice. I only really want to use Tzaangos / Acolytes as I'm not a fan of the Deamons, I currently own 2 Tzaangor Shamans, Gaunt Summoner, Ogroid fella, 40 Tzaangors, 40 Acolytes, 9 Skyfires & 6 Enlightened. Could anyone who know the army better then me suggest a coherent 2k list without spending tooo much more? 

That sounds like a pretty good start already! Tzaangor skyfires & enlightened love having the shamans with them. The summoner is a great cheap mage and the ogroid is pretty fun because he's a wizard who can hit pretty hard.

 

I have a unit of 20 tzaangors (maxed on greatweapons & mutants) and I find them to be really good! They get lots of attacks. So you could try 2 units of 20 or look into 2 units of 30 for the max attacks. Acolytes are better now they're 100 points instead of 140 and they'll give you both cheap objective camping and extra shooting (make sure to take the scroll to increase range and have heroes near them for the +1 to hit. Tzaangors also like arcanite wizards near them for their banner and the +1 to wound) 9 skyfires in a unit is expensive but have the capability to be very deadly! And one horrid combo I've heard of is giving them a shaman with fold reality so when all but 1 are dead you can bring some back. They are 200 points per 3 though so you may wanna experiment in games with how many you want. Lots of people usually go for 6 or 9 though.

 

I'd recommend seeing how many points what you have already comes to as it seems actually like a decent mix. I think perhaps any next steps might be to look at more regular tzaangors or enlightened as they can both pack a punch in CC. Though tbh I think you've likely got more than enough for 2k already. A curseling could be worth looking into if you want another decent 2 spell wizard, his unique spell is good vs enemy mages.

 

 

[TheOtherJosh]

@AaronWIlson

Without battalions you have a minimum of 2510 points. 

You're short either a Fatemaster, Magister or Additional Shaman for the “Arcanite Cabal” battalion.

 That one unit would give you the flexibility to make any of the Disciples of Tzeentch battalions. (And even the “mega battalions” Aka Wytchfyre Coven, or Pyrofane Cult)

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Tzaangor Shaman (160)
Tzaangor Shaman (160)
Gaunt Summoner (120)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)

Battleline
40 x Kairic Acolytes (360)
30 x Tzaangors (450)
10 x Tzaangors (180)

Units
9 x Tzaangor Skyfires (600)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (320)

Total: 2510 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 205
 

[AaronWilson]

Thanks's for the response dude, out of those three which one would you recommend picking up? 

[TheOtherJosh]

42 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

Thanks's for the response dude, out of those three which one would you recommend picking up? 

The Arcanite Cabal can have between 3-9 units selected from the choice of Shaman/Fatemaster/Magister. So, you could actually get all of them if you wanted.

If I was just getting one, Probably another Shaman... The Shaman gives you mobility and is a WIZARD, TZEENTCH and ARCANITE HERO.

WIZARD and ARCANITE HERO work well in combination with Tzaangor. And TZEENTCH WIZARD units work well with Kairic Acolytes.

Cheapest from a (money) cost perspective is the Magister (TZEENTCH WIZARD ARCANITE HERO ). Unlike the other two units it can’t fly. So it has less overall mobility and limits the application of the “Cabal of Sorcerers” rule which allows casting another spell. However, Adding the Magister gives you a completely different core spell for the unit than your Shaman have...

The Fatemaster ( TZEENTCH ARCANITE HERO ) isn’t a caster, so doesn’t get a benefit from Cabal of Sorcerers themselves. (Though they would give a benefit to other units in the Battalion.) And I’m personally not a fan of the Fatemaster model (it’s an older finecast/resin model). (I’d probably do up a custom conversion from Ahriman, one of the Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerers or a something else combined with a flying disc of Tzeentch a shield and a glaive... ie  a plastic model rather than resin/metal or finecast) But from a melee beatstick perspective it’s solid. (Especially with a Paradoxical Shield.) 

[AaronWilson]

Thanks Josh, looks like a third shaman it is I'll try and play around with some lists

[Olincay]

On 24/04/2018 at 5:58 AM, Primarch said:

Yeah I've been thinking of dropping the flamers and go for more pinks, as I said this lit was based on the battle force and the start collecting I get your point with the skyfires and 30 gors would look amazing. In a summoning pool should I go for blues and brims to be able to split pinks or should I go for something else?

Well it's really up to you, you don't have to declare what you are going to summon, so match up depending you could summon a balewind for the gaunt summoner, or if you don't need it you can use it for splitting blues and them brims from your pinks. 

[Izotzuhure]

I was toying with the idea of building the 'Overseer's  Fate -twisters', has anyone ever tried it? My idea was: Exalted LoC, Herald on Chariot, 2x Heralds on Disc and 5x Burning Chariots.  In case I wanted to have more bodies I could always use a regular LoC and some marauders. I think I could even fit a Gaun Summoner as well. 

[TheOtherJosh]

6 hours ago, Izotzuhure said:

 'Overseer's  Fate -twisters', has anyone ever tried it? My idea was: Exalted LoC

The Lord of Change for the Overseers Fatetwisters isn’t a keyword LORD OF CHANGE but a unit explicitly named “Lord of Change” (ie the Non-Exalted version).

So The Exalted LoC isn’t viable in that battalion. 

[Izotzuhure]

7 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

The Lord of Change for the Overseers Fatetwisters isn’t a keyword LORD OF CHANGE but a unit explicitly named “Lord of Change” (ie the Non-Exalted version).

So The Exalted LoC isn’t viable in that battalion. 

Oh, ok, no problem then, regular LoC it is! And, maybe, rather than using marauders, I could invoke some pink horrors to add some bodies while still being a one drop army. Could be fun to play.