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Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch


Nico
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1 hour ago, Nevvermore said:

This is a completely different thing to what you were saying earlier. This just says that musicians and standard bearers still have the same weapons as the rest of the unit even though they're carrying a banner/drum or whatever. it does not say anything about models with specific abilities automatically conferring those abilities to the rest of their units. So it has nothing to do with Tzaangor shields or any other model specific equipment. I don't really know what you're saying with the blood warriors and Stormcast example though? 

So the rules do say you allocate wounds to a model and continue to roll until it is slain.  So you can 'safely' roll 20 saves if you you 20 shields.  If you fail 10 in the first batch then you can safely make 10 rolls.  Beyond that you need to start rolling one or a few at a time until you are forced to allocate to a model without a shield.

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There has long been a problem with the shields that only work on models within a unit (the Warshine vs the Shield of Saphery for example). The practical solution is just to roll the save and then kill a model with a shield. Technically you only remove the models after the entire enemy unit has attacked (which occasionally matters), taking away models as you roll different attacks is just an easy way to count.

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As someone who plays with ardboys who have a similar rule with their shields, the way I do it is....

*Unit takes 10 wounds after armour save. I have 3 with shields, equaling 6 wounds. I roll 2 dice for the first one with a shield, if no saves, remove him, the continue this until I have no shields, then I allocate remaining wounds. *

Really no that difficult to do and not difficult to follow if the play explains what they are doing. 

I have yet to encounter an issue. 

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6 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

So the rules do say you allocate wounds to a model and continue to roll until it is slain.  So you can 'safely' roll 20 saves if you you 20 shields.  If you fail 10 in the first batch then you can safely make 10 rolls.  Beyond that you need to start rolling one or a few at a time until you are forced to allocate to a model without a shield.

 

5 hours ago, N_Watson said:

As someone who plays with ardboys who have a similar rule with their shields, the way I do it is....

*Unit takes 10 wounds after armour save. I have 3 with shields, equaling 6 wounds. I roll 2 dice for the first one with a shield, if no saves, remove him, the continue this until I have no shields, then I allocate remaining wounds. *

Really no that difficult to do and not difficult to follow if the play explains what they are doing. 

I have yet to encounter an issue. 

Yep, this is how it works

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Yep - and that's the most difficult case (multi-wound models when some of the wounds might go onto non-shield models). Easier to do if Kairic Acolytes and (say) 8 wounds and 12 dudes with shields and 18 without - just roll 8 6+ wards and then take off the fails from the shielded models.

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Well I took the plunge and joined the cult.  Bought the battletome and a box of acolytes last weekend, this coming weekend will be a Tzaangor Shaman, box of Tzaangor and a box of Tzaangor Enlightened; my GW is doing an AOS Escalation League starting in March that I'm going to be coordinating, so this will give me a small but solid start.  Excited to see how they play, as they seem to be a good mix.  I am preferential to the acolyte/tzaangor part over the daemons, however, as Tzeentch daemons have never really appealed to me.

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2000 (2 Drops)

  • 320     Archeon – Treacherous Bond (LOF)
  • 140     Fatemaster
  • 140     Fatemaster
  • 100     Gaunt Summoner  – Tzeentch’s Firestorm [LOC]
  • 300     Chaos Lord on Manticore w/Sword and Lance –Timeslip Pendant
  • 180     9 Chaos Warriors
  • 180     9 Chaos Warriors
  • 120     18 Chaos Marauders           
  • 120     Fatesworn Warband
  • 300     Lord of Change w/Sword – Phantasmal Weapons; Arcane Transformation [LOC]

I would be worried about that tiresome debate which supposedly stops you deploying under the minimum number of models (i.e. you have to deploy 10, not 9 if the unit is 10 for 180 from memory). I don't agree with that debate (given the clear purpose of the Battalion - i.e. you are sacrificing some model count to gain a fluffy benefit) but anticipate that it will be thrown at you.

Little Archaon is definitely the way to go if you want to use the Fatemaster. Sadly if the Fatemaster is the general he is dead to a snowball on a 2+ end of story (no destiny dice can save him).

Warriors are a good value Battleline choice with the ward saves against mortal wounds.

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It's great the army is fast and can move well, but the dependency on magic in the hero phase, as great as it is, is still limited to 18" of threat, period.  Other shooting threats just out-range it, especially hunters and ice lance because they can move and shoot.

They do have quite a few movement tricks and indeed summoning (in a reliable manner). More particularly they have summoning other Daemons to plug the gap that your list doesn't currently have an answer to. For example, power Summoning 20 Plaguebearers in one game (in a long line 3" in front of a Stonelord is going to save you for one or maybe 2 turns - for only 200 points. It might be wise to give it inspiring presence.

Summoning Pink Horrors to do the same job at 140 or 280 is not viable.

The looming concerns are ward saves and pew pew (Sylvaneth look especially challenging if more ranged oriented, rather than Durthu choppy oriented).

Given that objectives need to be taken, Death in general are going to be a real challenge, with giant swathes of units with 5+ ward saves. Tzeentch will fare better against elite units without Ward Saves (subject to Stormcast getting the drop on them and shooting off all the 4+ save heroes without cover saves).

 

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1 hour ago, Nico said:

They do have quite a few movement tricks and indeed summoning (in a reliable manner). More particularly they have summoning other Daemons to plug the gap that your list doesn't currently have an answer to. For example, power Summoning 20 Plaguebearers in one game (in a long line 3" in front of a Stonelord is going to save you for one or maybe 2 turns - for only 200 points. It might be wise to give it inspiring presence.

Summoning Pink Horrors to do the same job at 140 or 280 is not viable.

The looming concerns are ward saves and pew pew (Sylvaneth look especially challenging if more ranged oriented, rather than Durthu choppy oriented).

Given that objectives need to be taken, Death in general are going to be a real challenge, with giant swathes of units with 5+ ward saves. Tzeentch will fare better against elite units without Ward Saves (subject to Stormcast getting the drop on them and shooting off all the 4+ save heroes without cover saves).

 

This is one of the big reasons why I moved to 9x Skyfires as a must for me.  If you introduce a credible ranged threat that can possibly outshoot other ranged threats, then that forces the ball in their court.  The 18" range on magic is a limitation, and your units can't just sit there and suffer the bleed.  However, with Skyfires, you introduce a force that must be addressed or be destroyed :D

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39 minutes ago, HERO said:

This is one of the big reasons why I moved to 9x Skyfires as a must for me.  If you introduce a credible ranged threat that can possibly outshoot other ranged threats, then that forces the ball in their court.  The 18" range on magic is a limitation, and your units can't just sit there and suffer the bleed.  However, with Skyfires, you introduce a force that must be addressed or be destroyed :D

Yup, I think 9x Skyfires is gonna be a staple of WAAClists.

11 minutes ago, Changer said:

Have we covered what spell lore(s) we pick from if a wizard is both mortal and daemon? Are we able to add a spell from each lore or just one of them?

It's just the one I think.

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I think they can add a spell from each lore.

Purposively - it seems very unlikely that this was intended. There's no logical reason from a gameplay perspective why these handful of wizards should get both spells (they certainly aren't pointed on that basis - indeed all of the Gaunt Summoners are a bargain! - admittedly offset by the pricey Battleline options - a problem that Sylvaneth have - Kurnoth Hunters are cheap, but Dryads and Revenants certainly aren't and squeezing a list into 2,000 points becomes a challenge).

It seems far more likely that the general principle of one wizard = one lore spell would hold; although being both Mortal and Daemon, they would get to choose from either Lore. The latter is already a fat privilege - choice of 12 spells instead of 6 for any of the other Lore-using wizards (and 90% or so of Wizards don't have a Lore at all yet).

The principle I would invoke is that if they meant this extraordinary outcome to be the case, then they would have spelled it out in clear words, rather than it looking like an oversight (i.e. not considering that 3 or so Warscrolls have both keywords and that this might imply that you get both).

Maybe they did intend it to be the case as a roundabout or backdoor way to buff Big Archaon and make him closer to worth 700 points. We'll see. 

Finally from a practical perspective, if you do start playing Little Archaon and stomping around with 2 extra spells for no good reason, then it's likely to levitate the nerf hammer (and in his case, the ban hammer) into the air. 

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After looking at the warscrolls I really can't see what the rationale is for the points on Acolytes vs Tzaangor...

Tzaangor have double the wounds (!), better save, same Bravery, better weapons, the crazy good mortal wound ability, better abilities... and the only thing Acolytes have are their missiles, which are the same as Pink Horror ones without the benefit of the unit also being wizards. And Tzaangors are only 40 points more. Who would ever take Acolytes except for fluff reasons? I'm almost regretting painting my 20 Silver Tower ones.

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