Jump to content

Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch


Nico

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Asamu said:

The rules of one aren't listed in the GHB18, due to them being folded into the core rules. They flip through all the relevant pages detailing the differences between matched play and open/narrative play in the BoLS overview, and everything on those pages is legible in the video, and there is nothing about spells or the rules of one on those pages.

Unless there is an FAQ released to state otherwise, Fatesworn arcane bolt spam is legal in matched play (Good thing arcane bolt was nerfed and fatesworn went up 60 pts).

Sweet, good to know, thanks! ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 2.6k
  • Created
  • Last Reply
2 hours ago, AaronWIlson said:

So as it stands, we're thinking Fatesword Warband is legal to push out as many Arcane Bolts as possible?

I guess so. In a world where there are spells that chuck buckets of dice in mortal wounds, i guess 1 MW with a small chance of becoming 1-3, just isn't a concern... Which is fair to be honest. ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lord of Change - 380
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch - 180
Magister - 140
Magister - 140
Magister - 140
Orgroid - 180
Curseling - 160

Kairic Acolytes - 80
Kairic Acolytes - 80
Kairic Acolytes - 80
Kairic Acolytes - 80
Pink Horrors - 200


Spell Portal - 60
Balewind Vortex - 40
Fatesworn Warband - 160

The list is 1940, so you can take a command point if you fancy it. Will put out 16 spells a turn, On average 30ish mortal wounds a turn, as well as 50 shooting attacks, with the acolytes having rend -1 and pushing a fair amount of fate points. With your opponent casting spells as well you be looking at a LoC by turn 3. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect KO can actually wipe that entire army in one turn. 

It’s so feeble model wise, which you cannot get away with any more in the absence of split. You’ve got no way of getting rid of the vast swathe of models heading your way. A late Chicken that might get to cast a weakened Gateway in turn 4 isn’t going to do anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, I still don't follow how Fatesworn is allowed to chuck out multiple Arcane Bolts.

The rule of 1 in the core rules says that you can only attempt a spell once, even if they have an ability that would allow them to do it twice. 

I don't think the rule about warscrolls taking precedent over normal rules applies here, as it specifically mentions those kind of abilities.

I think that rule is intended to clarify thins like the Curseling's ability to cast spells in your opponent's hero phase. Not allowed in the core rules, but under certain conditions his warscroll gives him that ability.

The arcane bolt nerf and Fatesworn hike does kinda lend some credence to the other interpretation though, I guess. Think I'll probably just play it safe until it gets FAQ'ed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Nico said:

I suspect KO can actually wipe that entire army in one turn. 

It’s so feeble model wise, which you cannot get away with any more in the absence of split. You’ve got no way of getting rid of the vast swathe of models heading your way. A late Chicken that might get to cast a weakened Gateway in turn 4 isn’t going to do anything.

Yeah, I'm just trying to work with what we have. Fatesworn seems the best way to go, but it's very hard to build a list right now that seems to have enough heroes to make any use of the new Fate Point system AND have any real presence on the ground. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CyderPirate said:

Sorry, I still don't follow how Fatesworn is allowed to chuck out multiple Arcane Bolts.

The rule of 1 in the core rules says that you can only attempt a spell once, even if they have an ability that would allow them to do it twice. 

I don't think the rule about warscrolls taking precedent over normal rules applies here, as it specifically mentions those kind of abilities.

I think that rule is intended to clarify thins like the Curseling's ability to cast spells in your opponent's hero phase. Not allowed in the core rules, but under certain conditions his warscroll gives him that ability.

The arcane bolt nerf and Fatesworn hike does kinda lend some credence to the other interpretation though, I guess. Think I'll probably just play it safe until it gets FAQ'ed. 

"warscroll overrides core rules" definitely applies here. In fact, that's the entire purpose of the rule. Warscrolls can break the core rules freely. This includes things such as casting the same spell multiple times (Kroak, Fatesworn), moving/shooting in the Hero phase, etc etc. There is no exception for the Rules of One, they can be overwritten by Warscrolls just like every other rule in the Core Rules. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a big investment, but 30 Pinks for 540 points might be worth considering in this edition. Brings you down to 18 points per Pink Horror, with each individual Pink Horror generating 34 points of Blues and Brimstones.

The counter to summoning is very likely to be turn 1 charges/alpha strikes, and screening with Blues/Brimstones no longer makes sense given their points increases and the fact that it's so much cheaper to get them from Pinks. You could screen with multiple units of 10 Pinks, which would give you more spells, but also means you have much less control about what you lose and where you lose it from.  Also the +1 to hit with shooting is nice. I'm definitely going to give it a go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Nevvermore said:

I don't know what you mean by "as it specifically mentions those kind of abilities", but yes, the "warscroll overrides core rules" definitely applies here. In fact, that's the entire purpose of the rule. Warscrolls can break the core rules freely. This includes things such as casting the same spell multiple times (Kroak, Fatesworn), moving/shooting in the Hero phase, etc etc. There is no exception for the Rules of One, they can be overwritten by Warscrolls just like every other rule in the Core Rules.

The rules of 1 were posted on the previous page, this is the bit I was referring to though:

"Each spell can be attempted only once per turn rather than once per wizard per turn. For example, a after you have attempted to cast Arcane Bolt, you cannot attempt to cast it again in the same turn, even if a model has an ability that would normally allow it to cast the same spell more than once."

The bit in bold is what's giving me a headache. Either the rules are contradicting each other, or there's a more complicated interaction here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CyderPirate said:

The rules of 1 were posted on the previous page, this is the bit I was referring to though:

"Each spell can be attempted only once per turn rather than once per wizard per turn. For example, a after you have attempted to cast Arcane Bolt, you cannot attempt to cast it again in the same turn, even if a model has an ability that would normally allow it to cast the same spell more than once."

The bit in bold is what's giving me a headache. Either the rules are contradicting each other, or there's a more complicated interaction here. 

Yes, I realized after posting what you meant and edited my post. I believe that sentence was simply copy-pasted over from GHB17 without much thought. It doesn't actually do anything, since the "warscroll overrides core rules" rule admits no exceptions. If there is a contradiction between core rules and warscroll, warscroll wins. Doesn't matter how the Core Rules are worded.

EDIT: This post is incorrect, the sentence CyderPirate bolded is not actually in the new rules, only in the old GHB 2017.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, CyderPirate said:

The rules of 1 were posted on the previous page, this is the bit I was referring to though:

"Each spell can be attempted only once per turn rather than once per wizard per turn. For example, a after you have attempted to cast Arcane Bolt, you cannot attempt to cast it again in the same turn, even if a model has an ability that would normally allow it to cast the same spell more than once."

The bit in bold is what's giving me a headache. Either the rules are contradicting each other, or there's a more complicated interaction here.

I had the same thought but as Asamu was kind enough to point out to me, the ghb17 has been overridden by the newer core rules; "always use the most current rules" is the rule on rules, sayeth GW.

With that in mind the bold section doesn't exist anymore, allowing the loophole to work. I think. ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah maybe that's the case then. Still not 100% on board, as that bolded out bit would be utterly meaningless if the "warscrolls always trump core rules, with no exceptions" is correct. That said, the rules are clearly in opposition to each other, so something's clearly gone wrong, and it being a simple holdover from the previous edition is as good an explanation as any.

The only other example I could think of off the top of my head was the Kairos dice and the rule of 1 that prevents the modification of the dice roll for battle rounds, but that caveat has been added to the warscroll - again backing up your point. 

(For the record, the ability I was thinking of was this one)

Oracle of Eternity: Once per battle, you can change the result of a single dice roll to the result of your choosing. However, this ability may not be used to affect the roll to see who takes the first turn in a battle round.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah, I thought the bit you posted was from the new core rules! Oops! Teaches me for believing what I read on the internet....

Yeah, no sign of 'rules of one' in the core rules. So unless they're in the GHB18, we're off the hook! Arcane Bolt party time!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Waiyuren said:

I had the same thought but as Asamu was kind enough to point out to me, the ghb17 has been overridden by the newer core rules; "always use the most current rules" is the rule on rules, sayeth GW.

With that in mind the bold section doesn't exist anymore, allowing the loophole to work. I think. ?

The newer core rules don’t have the rule of one because the “rule of one” wasn’t ever part of the core rules.

It was part of the GHB. Which technically hasn’t yet been replaced until the new edition is released on the 30th Of June. (So don’t put all your hopes in one loophole.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CyderPirate said:

sAh, I thought the bit you posted was from the new core rules! Oops! Teaches me for believing what I read on the internet....

Yeah, no sign of 'rules of one' in the core rules. So unless they're in the GHB18, we're off the hook! Arcane Bolt party time!

 

1 hour ago, TheOtherJosh said:

The newer core rules don’t have the rule of one because the “rule of one” wasn’t ever part of the core rules.

It was part of the GHB. Which technically hasn’t yet been replaced until the new edition is released on the 30th Of June. (So don’t put all your hopes in one loophole.)

What are you guys talking about? The rule of one is in the Core Rules, page 8:

4LtBUFq.png

And it doesn't have the qualification CyderPirate was worried about (I also made the mistake of thinking that sentence was in the Core Rules, it is in fact only in GHB 2017) so the rules are very clear: Warscroll trumps Core Rules (including Rule of One), always. Fatesworn can indeed cast Arcane Bolt multiple times.

See:

hdP5Bb1.png

iJYHnfS.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry for the confusion, that really wasn't clear on my part.

The "Rules of 1" were introduced after AOS1.0, as their own distinct thing in one of the GHBs. 

The new rules have the same effect, but they aren't listed as 'rules of 1" - they're just rolled into the basic rules.  That's what I meant by the "rule of 1" being gone - they're just not listed as a separate set of rules. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, CyderPirate said:

Sorry for the confusion, that really wasn't clear on my part.

The "Rules of 1" were introduced after AOS1.0, as their own distinct thing in one of the GHBs. 

The new rules have the same effect, but they aren't listed as 'rules of 1" - they're just rolled into the basic rules.  That's what I meant by the "rule of 1" being gone - they're just not listed as a separate set of rules. 

 

Yes, there were five rules of one in GHB 2017, and since all of them have been incorporated into the Core Rules, there would be no reason to also include them in GHB 2018.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Nevvermore said:

Yes, there were five rules of one in GHB 2017, and since all of them have been incorporated into the Core Rules, there would be no reason to also include them in GHB 2018.

So... the difference is/would be that the “rules of one” are specifically for Pitched Battles and override the core rules.

The new core rule changes it from “cast the same spell with each of your different Wizards” to can only cast each spell once unless overruled by the Warscroll.

I expect that we will an update to the rule of one further limiting spells to not allowing overruling by the Warscroll. Otherwise you’ll see Kroak (and several others) be potentially unbalanced.

Heres the original rule for reference:

The 1st Rule of One: Each spell can be attempted only once per turn rather than once per wizard per turn. For example, after you have attempted to cast Arcane Bolt, you cannot attempt to cast it again in the same turn, even if a model has an ability that would normally allow it to cast the same spell more than once.”

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think anyone is arguing that if we will something otherwise we can't, but currently RAW from the core rules we can. The GHB could 100% say otherwise though, or GW have just poorly worded the Core Rules and it's not doing what they intended. It looks like there could be a fairly sized day 0 FAQ at this point. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...