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Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch


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6 minutes ago, HERO said:

I watched the entire video, but I'm a little dubious on the overall impression that the power level is going to be through the roof.  I'm currently seeing them place on a 6/10, or even 7/10 compared to some of the other... less savory lists out there (tusk ice lance, stormfall, skyre, hunters..etc).

It's great the army is fast and can move well, but the dependency on magic in the hero phase, as great as it is, is still limited to 18" of threat, period.  Other shooting threats just out-range it, especially hunters and ice lance because they can move and shoot.

Also, on the point of the Tzaangors' Icon Bearer, I didn't see this before because I thought:  No way would GW be that stupid.  I mean, who plays individual horrors as Wizards?  Has this never been addressed?  I believe in other GW books "brotherhood" of psykers is still a single psyker unit and not per model basis?

If the keywords are at the bottom of the page, then every model has all of those keywords (unless specified on the scroll).  This every model in a Pink Horror unit is a Tzeentch Wizard, just like a Gaunt Summoner is a Tzeentch Wizard.  As I noted on the show, they likely meant to include the word "unit" and will certainly errata them this way.  But as they read now, a strong case can be made for counting every Pink Horror within 9".

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2 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

If the keywords are at the bottom of the page, then every model has all of those keywords (unless specified on the scroll).  This every model in a Pink Horror unit is a Tzeentch Wizard, just like a Gaunt Summoner is a Tzeentch Wizard.  As I noted on the show, they likely meant to include the word "unit" and will certainly errata them this way.  But as they read now, a strong case can be made for counting every Pink Horror within 9".

i really cant see this lasting long as you said, and TO's will comp it.

 

likely better off playing it without it counting 

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3 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

Oops - right.  So considerably more wounds, but less bravery.  It's scary to lose one especially if the opponent can impact your bravery already.

With 16" move and 24" range, I think they have the largest threat in the range.  They can sure move around really well.

The Bravery though... shutter.

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1 hour ago, Thomas Lyons said:

So, this 20 point adjustment on the Gaunt Summoner actually helped me out quit a bit.  Here is Fatesworn I'm considering:
 

2000 (2 Drops)

  • 320     Archeon – Treacherous Bond (LOF)
  • 140     Fatemaster
  • 140     Fatemaster
  • 100     Gaunt Summoner  – Tzeentch’s Firestorm [LOC]
  • 300     Chaos Lord on Manticore w/Sword and Lance –Timeslip Pendant
  • 180     9 Chaos Warriors
  • 180     9 Chaos Warriors
  • 120     18 Chaos Marauders           
  • 120     Fatesworn Warband
  • 300     Lord of Change w/Sword – Phantasmal Weapons; Arcane Transformation [LOC]

Notes on the force:

  • This force is a triple threat of hammers with little Archeon (Treacherous Bonded to the Chaos Warriors, more on this below), the Chaos Lord on Manticore with a possible double pile in and a devastating charge, and a Lord of Change with a Sword attack at -3 rend and 3 damage a swing.  All can be augmented by Arcane Transformation to increase the key attacks of each of the heroes, including Archeon's Slayer of Kings.
  •  For command abilities, the dual fatemasters will give two rerolls of random numbers each round that will work on all dice, including all of the ward saves, casting rolls/dispel checks (not on the LOC unfortunately), and even dice for spells (like the 9 dice of Tzeentch's Firestorm, which has the chance to increase the damage on this spell Significantly; 3d3 mortal wounds per cast isn't unlikely).  The Chaos Lord on Manticore buffs the appropriate Chaos warrior unit with rerolls to Charges, wound, and battleshock tests (they'll already be getting rerolls to hit from the two Fatemaster dice numbers as well).  The Lord of Change will also be buffing his, Archeon's and the Gaunt Summoner's casting and dispelling by 1 as well.  
  • The Marauders will likely have a possible reroll to their Barbarian Hordes Check (thanks Team Fatemaster!), have a 6+ ward save, and be a good source of bodies for objectives. 
  • Archeon is going to lifelink (Treacherous Bond) to a block of Chaos Warriors.  Every Mortal Wound he sends to the Chaos Warriors will get a 5++ and a 6++ ward save to negate, both checks with possible rerolls from Team Fatemaster.  So their 18 wounds will quickly become effectively a 30+ wound shield for little Archeon.  So, yeah, that's pretty good.
  • One of the non-caster heroes (Team Fatemaster or Chaos Lord on Manticore) covers the Arcane Bolt, which is granted from the Battalion. 
  • Did I mention that all attacks have at least a -1 rend (from the Battalion).  Oh, and I guess there's these things called Fatedice too...

 

Yep, feel pretty good about this lineup. I'm sad I couldn't fit in either the Gorebeast Chariots or Mounted Marauders but I feel pretty good where this ended up.

 

Unfortunately, this list doesn't meet the amount of units required by the battalion. Ever since I picked up AoS I have wanted to do a STD Fatesworn Warband. The most challenging thing about it is that you need 1x hero and 9x Mortal Tzeentch "units". This means the list must have 10 total units marked Mortal Tzeentch. I only counted 8 in this list. 

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18 minutes ago, Digdug said:

Unfortunately, this list doesn't meet the amount of units required by the battalion. Ever since I picked up AoS I have wanted to do a STD Fatesworn Warband. The most challenging thing about it is that you need 1x hero and 9x Mortal Tzeentch "units". This means the list must have 10 total units marked Mortal Tzeentch. I only counted 8 in this list. 

Good catch.  Not sure what happened here.  Looks like I'll have to go back to retooling.  The Marauders could easily be split into two units.  What would probably have to happen next is one of the units of chaos warriors would need to be split as well, probably into another 9 marauders and a Gorebeast Chariot or 5 Mounted Marauders.  I'd need to think on this a bit to figure out the best combo.  Hmm, that's disappointing.  

 

Note that Mortal Tzeentch Heroes do count as Mortal Tzeentch units, so the heroes can fulfill some of these requirements.  

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This is a list I'm thinking about for a variant of Mortal Tzeentch using Fatesworn Warband.

2000pt (1 drop)

  • 140     *Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount - General [Trait - Incorporeal Form or Blessing of Tzeentch or Illusionist or Daemonspark; Wellspring]
  • 140     *Chaos Sorcerer Lord - Glimpse the Future or Arcane Suggestion
  • 160     *Ogroid Thaumaturge - Infusion Arcanum or Shield of Fate
  • 120     *Gaunt Summoner with Familiars - Tzeentch's Firestorm [Souldraught]
  • 100     *Lord of Chaos
  • 400     *Chaos Knights - Taken as unit of 9 for 6+ ward from battalion
  • 180     *10 Chaos Warriors - Would take as unit of 9 but @Nico disabused me of that notion in my first posts back in August (see below for link)
  • 180     *10 Chaos Warriors
  • 300     *3 Gorebeast Chariots
  • 60       *10 Chaos Marauders
  • 100     *Summoning Pool (Balewind Vortex)
  • 120     Fatesworn Warband

Some perks:

  • 1 drop basically guarantees first turn
  • Turn 1, Gaunt Summoner uses Souldraught and casts Balewind then begins to nuke with his organic spell and Firestorm rolling 3 dice with +2 to cast (familiar and balewind)
  • Destiny dice guarantee Gorebeast charge for double fist attacks; or re-roll with Lord ability
  • Chaos Knights smash into something big and then stick around forever on an objective
  • Lord of Chaos for -2 rend; protects wizards or goes for KO on heroes with Daemonic Power (use 6's on damage dice) 
  • 5 different heroes that could all cast the Arcane Bolt from the battalion

Additional thoughts:

  • I originally built my lists with Sayl to provide mobility to the Knights or Chariots but he can't be in a Tzeentch army.
  • Lord of War plus Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount could give +2 to Knights or Chariots making them hit on 2's; can't do that here.
  • Lots of opportunities to mix and match command traits and artefacts for best combination.

Below is a link to a previous post where I was looking for feedback to some original Fatesworn Warband ideas I had.  It sets the basis for may way of thinking with a StD Fatesworn Warband.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Arkiham said:

the save roll is the same for the entire unit. if you have models in the unit with shields the guys who dont have them still gain the benefits until all those models with shields are gone. same for two hand weapons, all models in the unit gain +1 to hit in this instance. 

 

for your particular example you'd roll your unit save and then a d6 for a 6+ for the further save on all units, and then remove a model as you see fit, the entire unit gains the benefit for the shield until they're all gone, once they're all dead. the additional 6+ save is lost

@arkiham

Is there an FAQ for this? I can't find anything in the core rules that says the whole unit would benefit from the special rule for the shields, which says "before allocating a wound to a model with an arcanite shield..."

allocating wounds happens after save rolls, so although the whole unit has the same initial save roll, presumably if you choose to allocate a wound to a shield guy and then fail the 6+ you can't then decide to allocate it to another guy(?)

 

also, the core rule states that in order to roll for attacks en mass, they need to have the same weapon characteristics (including to hit roll), so I think you'd need to roll the attacks from any double sword guys separately.

if I'm missing something here or there's been a FAQ, please let me know! That'd make the unit a hell of a lot more usable! :-) 

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2 minutes ago, Zlatan said:

@arkiham

Is there an FAQ for this? I can't find anything in the core rules that says the whole unit would benefit from the special rule for the shields, which says "before allocating a wound to a model with an arcanite shield..."

allocating wounds happens after save rolls, so although the whole unit has the same initial save roll, presumably if you choose to allocate a wound to a shield guy and then fail the 6+ you can't then decide to allocate it to another guy(?)

 

also, the core rule states that in order to roll for attacks en mass, they need to have the same weapon characteristics (including to hit roll), so I think you'd need to roll the attacks from any double sword guys separately.

if I'm missing something here or there's been a FAQ, please let me know! That'd make the unit a hell of a lot more usable! :-) 

Good question, where does it say that they get all benefits?

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The benefit from the shield isn't a save, it's an ability, and it definitely doesn't benefit the entire unit. Just like, for example, a unit champion that gets +1 to hit doesn't confer this ability to the rest of the unit.  It even specifically states that you make the roll before allocating a wound to a model carrying a shield, so there is no "unit save" for the shields. When your unit gets wounded, you roll to save normally, then you allocate wounds, and when you allocate a wound to a model with a shield, their ability triggers and you roll an additional dice for that model. Lots of units have similar abilities.

I don't think there are any units in the whole game were different models in the same unit have different saves. They're all abilities just like the Tzaangor shields.

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I wanted to run a list past you guys, please let me know what you think:

2000

LORDS:
Lord of Change = 300
+Tzeentch's Firestorm
+General - Incorporeal Form (-1 to hit in CC)
+Phantasmal Weapons (+1 Rend to all melee)

Tzaangor Shaman = 120
+Shield of Fate
+Fold Reality

Gaunt Summoner = 100
+Glimpse the Future
+Fold Reality

BATTLELINE:
20x Tzaangors = 360

10x Horrors = 140
+Bolt of Change

10x Horrors = 140
+Arcane Transformation

OTHER:
9x Tzaangor Skyfires = 480
6x Tzaangor Enlightened = 320
+Tzaangor Coven = 40



This is the other list I'm comparing against:

1960

LORDS:
Lord of Change = 300
+Tzeentch's Firestorm
+General - Incorporeal Form (-1 to hit in CC)
+Phantasmal Weapons (+1 Rend to all melee)

Chaos Sorcerer = 140
+Arcane Suggestion

Tzaangor Shaman = 120
+Shield of Fate
+Fold Reality

Gaunt Summoner = 100
+Glimpse the Future
+Fold Reality

BATTLELINE:
30x Tzaangors = 540

10x Horrors = 140
+Bolt of Change

10x Horrors = 140
+Arcane Transformation

OTHER:
9x Tzaangor Skyfires = 480



The difference here is that I'm adding 10x more Tzaangors, dropping the formation, and adding a Chaos Sorc to ease my shooting with the Skyfires and giving more re-rolls for the larger unit of Tzaangors.

Which one would you go for and why?  The skeleton of the list is pretty much the same.

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20 minutes ago, HERO said:

Which one would you go for and why?  


These are actually, ironically, VERY similar to my mixed lists.   I like the second one better, although, this is how I did mine (changes in red):

Lord of Change (300)

Mounted Chaos Sorcerer (120)

Tzaangor Shaman (120)

Gaunt Summoner (100)

BATTLELINE:
30x Tzaangors (540)

10x Horrors (140)

10x Horrors (140)

OTHER:
6x Tzaangor Skyfires (320)

3x Tzaangor Enlightened (160)
+Tzaangor Coven = 40

 

Correspondingly, my suggestion is to do a hybrid mix between the two lists to get the extra round of attacks with that 30 block of Tzaangor and the better beak attacks.

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There isn't a passage that specifies about the shield's specifically.

But using this one in the faq is what I was basing my assumption on.

It's not been an issue really for units such as 10 blood warriors or stormcast troops etc. So i just assumed everyone was doing this. 

Screenshot_20170124-210735.jpg

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1 hour ago, HERO said:

2000

LORDS:
Lord of Change = 300
+Tzeentch's Firestorm
+General - Incorporeal Form (-1 to hit in CC)
+Phantasmal Weapons (+1 Rend to all melee)

Tzaangor Shaman = 120
+Shield of Fate
+Fold Reality

Gaunt Summoner = 100
+Glimpse the Future
+Fold Reality

BATTLELINE:
20x Tzaangors = 360

10x Horrors = 140
+Bolt of Change

10x Horrors = 140
+Arcane Transformation

OTHER:
9x Tzaangor Skyfires = 480
6x Tzaangor Enlightened = 320
+Tzaangor Coven = 40

Drop 3 of the enlightened and take an Ogroid, you want more wizards really. Otherwise looks solid. The Ogroid has some brutal spells and is nice to run along with the Tzaangors.

 

1 hour ago, HERO said:

The difference here is that I'm adding 10x more Tzaangors, dropping the formation, and adding a Chaos Sorc to ease my shooting with the Skyfires and giving more re-rolls for the larger unit of Tzaangors.

Which one would you go for and why?  The skeleton of the list is pretty much the same.

I think the Tzaangor Coven MIGHT be good, but maybe the enlightened aren't worth it, and when the enlightened die you lose the formation bonuses. So maybe take the sorceror list. It's a shame you can't really sneak an Ogroid in there but eh, Gaunt Summoner is better. Maybe grab the Gaunt w/ Familiars to add some more points.

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I'm not sure if dropping Skyfires down from 9 to 6 is the right answer.  You want to capitalize on big shooting turns with the Chaos Sorc and other buffs that you put on it.

Getting double attack is great, but I'm wondering if its as good as re-roll 1s on everything, including hits as the benefits from the Sorc is amazing with big units of Tzaangors once they reach combat, and Skyfires when they're not.

Yeah, it's a tough one for sure :D  Math can probably determine which one is better:  I'm thinking 30 Tzaans with re-roll 1s to hit, wound and save is better than 20 with double attacks.  More mans too.

 

Math in, thanks to my friend Chris:
Assuming 4s to hit and 3s to wound, 1 attack each using the same weapon:
20 attacking twice = 13.33 avg damage
30 attacking once w/ reroll 1s on to-hit and to-wound = 13.61

10 more guys gives 10 extra bodies, more great weapons, more shield bodies, and effectively 20 more wounds.

I think I will go with list 2 since it benefits the big unit of Skyfires as well.

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1 hour ago, Arkiham said:

There isn't a passage that specifies about the shield's specifically.

But using this one in the faq is what I was basing my assumption on.

It's not been an issue really for units such as 10 blood warriors or stormcast troops etc. So i just assumed everyone was doing this. 

Screenshot_20170124-210735.jpg

This is a completely different thing to what you were saying earlier. This just says that musicians and standard bearers still have the same weapons as the rest of the unit even though they're carrying a banner/drum or whatever. it does not say anything about models with specific abilities automatically conferring those abilities to the rest of their units. So it has nothing to do with Tzaangor shields or any other model specific equipment. I don't really know what you're saying with the blood warriors and Stormcast example though? 

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51 minutes ago, HERO said:

I'm not sure if dropping Skyfires down from 9 to 6 is the right answer.  You want to capitalize on big shooting turns with the Chaos Sorc and other buffs that you put on it.

Getting double attack is great, but I'm wondering if its as good as re-roll 1s on everything, including hits as the benefits from the Sorc is amazing with big units of Tzaangors once they reach combat, and Skyfires when they're not.

Yeah, it's a tough one for sure :D  Math can probably determine which one is better:  I'm thinking 30 Tzaans with re-roll 1s to hit, wound and save is better than 20 with double attacks.  More mans too.

 

Math in, thanks to my friend Chris:
Assuming 4s to hit and 3s to wound, 1 attack each using the same weapon:
20 attacking twice = 13.33 avg damage
30 attacking once w/ reroll 1s on to-hit and to-wound = 13.61

10 more guys gives 10 extra bodies, more great weapons, more shield bodies, and effectively 20 more wounds.

I think I will go with list 2 since it benefits the big unit of Skyfires as well.

I think you're right. In tournament/Waac lists, a bunch of Skyfires are going to be very strong. I'd still add the Gaunt Summoner with Familiars to give 20 points more. But yeah I would agree with that list. I still think that it's a shame you can't add an Ogroid as with self buffs it's a very strong support unit for Tzaangors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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In other news, I think I'm going to run an army with models I like (shocking right?)!

 

Leaders

General : Lord on Daemonic Mount - 140

Lord of Change - 300

Ogroid Thaumaturge - 160

Gaunt Summoner - 100

Battleline

Tzaangors X 20 - 360

Pink Horrors X 10 - 140

Units

Gorebeast Chariot - 100

Chaos Knights X 5 - 200

 

1.5k on the nose - am playing with only 2 battleline at that points 

 

for 2k I would add the following : 

10 X Chaos Warriors - 180 (or maybe another 10 Tzaangors would be better)

Tzaangor Shaman - 120

Herald on Burning Chariot - 200

 

but I'm not entirely sure. Any feedback? Going to be a fairly fluffy list and will play mainly a couple of friends - O&G(goblin spam) and Seraphon(Start Collecting x2 plus change)

 

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