Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[HERO]

22 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

If you disregard the champion -- 9 shots, 3 of them will be mortal wounds totaling 6.  The other 6 shots hit 33% (you already 'used' your 5s and 6s) so, 2 hits, 1.3 wounds, 0.88 after armor, 1.8 damage.  Looks to be about 7.8 total.  My initial number of 2.9 seems a little high, but not by too much with champions considered.

Hmm.  Assuming 3+ to hit, I'm getting 3.96 hits, with 2.61 wounds when using 6 hits x .66, followed by .66.  This is before the wound multiplies into d3 wounds ea before armor saves.

[daedalus81]

15 minutes ago, HERO said:

Hmm.  Assuming 3+ to hit, I'm getting 3.96 hits, with 2.61 wounds when using 6 hits x .66, followed by .66.  This is before the wound multiplies into d3 wounds ea before armor saves.

Rolls of 3 and 4 score a hit.  Rolls of 5 and 6 score automatic mortal wounds.  So 1/3 of your attacks will be a normal hit and 1/3 will be mw.  

Regular - 9 * .333 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 2.6
Mortal - 9 * .333 * 2 = 6
 

[HERO]

1 hour ago, daedalus81 said:

Rolls of 3 and 4 score a hit.  Rolls of 5 and 6 score automatic mortal wounds.  So 1/3 of your attacks will be a normal hit and 1/3 will be mw.  

Regular - 9 * .333 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 2.6
Mortal - 9 * .333 * 2 = 6
 

Nice.

How does this compare to say, a unit of 3 Burning Chariots?  I'm getting 5.94 wounds inflicted before tests for mortal wound.

[Thomas Lyons]

For those interested, I dropped by @Mc1gamer's YouTube Channel and we talked DoT book contents for two hours.  You can check it out here.

[Goodwin]

Just watched and Liked the video, @Thomas Lyons.

Really dug the video, nice work on it.  Kept me pumped while I was working on Horrors and Tzaangor.

Keep up the good work!

[Deathadder99]

Anyone come up with a good fatesworn warband list yet? Do we even think it will be viable with the new tzeentch allegiance and spells?

Will Daemons just be better?

[Thomas Lyons]

2 hours ago, Deathadder99 said:

Anyone come up with a good fatesworn warband list yet? Do we even think it will be viable with the new tzeentch allegiance and spells?

Will Daemons just be better?

I've struggled with Mortal-centric viable lists the last couple of days.  I think it can be done but I haven't unlocked it yet.  I think the best lists are going to be mixed Tzeentch lists.  The best Fatesworn warbands I've produced so far are the following (although I'm not sold on any of them):
 

2000pt (1 drop)         

• 140     *Fatemaster –General [Boundless Mutation]; Aspect of Tzeentch
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner – Arcane Transformation [LOC]
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner –Glimpse the Future [LOF]
• 300     *Chaos Lord on Manticore –Timeslip Pendant
• 240     *Sorcerer Lord on Manticore – Infusion Arcanum [LOF]
• 200     *Chaos Warshrine
• 180     *9 Chaos Warriors
• 180     *9 Chaos Warriors
• 200     *9 Marauder Horsemen
• 180     *27 Marauders
• 120     Fatesworn Warband

2000pt  (2 drops)        

• 140     *Fatemaster –General [Boundless Mutation]
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner – Arcane Transformation [LOC]
• 300     *Chaos Lord on Manticore –Timeslip Pendant
• 240     *Sorcerer Lord on Manticore – Infusion Arcanum [LOF]
• 200     *Chaos Warshrine
• 180     *9 Chaos Warriors
• 200     *9 Marauder Horsemen
• 60       *9 Marauders
• 60       *9 Marauders
• 60       *9 Marauders
• 120     Fatesworn Warband
• 300     Lord of Change w/Sword – Phantasmal Weapons;  Tzeentch’s Firestorm [LOC]

2000pt (2 Drops)         

• 140     *Fatemaster –General [Boundless Mutation]; Aspect of Tzeentch
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner – Arcane Transformation [LOC]
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner –Glimpse the Future [LOF]
• 300     *Chaos Lord on Manticore –Timeslip Pendant
• 200     *Chaos Warshrine
• 180     *9 Chaos Warriors
• 200     *5 Chaos Knights
• 200     *9 Marauder Horsemen
• 60       *9 Marauders
• 60       *9 Marauders
• 120     Fatesworn Warband
• 300     Lord of Change w/Sword – Phantasmal Weapons; Tzeentch’s Firestorm [LOC]

All of these forces are playing with the Fatemaster's command ability that would allow a reroll of ANY dice from nearby Tzeentch Mortal's within 9".  This is why I've included so many random rolls (ala warshrine ward saves and the like), as you have a shot at rerolling even these special saves with the Fatemaster's ability.  If someone really wanted to lean into this ability, they'd want to use Archeon and it might look something like this:

• 320     *Archeon – Infusion Arcanum [LOF]
• 140     *Fatemaster – Aspect of Tzeentch
• 140     *Fatemaster
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner – Arcane Transformation [LOC]
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner –Glimpse the Future [LOF]
• 300     *Chaos Lord on Manticore w/Lance and Sword –Timeslip Pendant
• 180     *9 Chaos Warriors
• 180     *9 Chaos Warriors
• 200     *9 Marauder Horsemen
• 180     *27 Marauders
• 120     *Fatesworn Warband

This allows you to grant Archeon a bonus attack from Arcane Transformation and get +1 to hit and wound with his attacks, which are both going to make the Slayer of Kings trigger more often.  Alternatively, Treacherous Bond and significantly increase his lifespan (probably linking his wounds to the Chaos Warriors which are 18 wounds with a 5++ and a 6++ to negate the mortal wounds he is sending through the Bond).  This setup will have double Fatemasters which should always be 2 different numbers (since if the second matched the first, you'll get another preroll of that dice from the first's ability).  This allows for copious rerolls on all of the various abilities.

Again, I'm not sold on any of these yet but this is the best I've come up with so far.

[daedalus81]

7 hours ago, HERO said:

Nice.

How does this compare to say, a unit of 3 Burning Chariots?  I'm getting 5.94 wounds inflicted before tests for mortal wound.

Yea you've got the right number there.  The test averages an extra 1 mw so 7.94 vs 8.6 or so.  Both are the same cost so I'd advantage the chariot since its 18 wounds vs 12 and they don't need a battalion to get the fly over damage, however Skyfires will be better at taking on hard targets.

[Deathadder99]

2 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

I've struggled with Mortal-centric viable lists the last couple of days.  I think it can be done but I haven't unlocked it yet.  I think the best lists are going to be mixed Tzeentch lists.  The best Fatesworn warbands I've produced so far are the following (although I'm not sold on any of them):
 

2000pt          

• 140     *Fatemaster –General [Boundless Mutation]; Aspect of Tzeentch
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner – Arcane Transformation [LOC]
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner –Glimpse the Future [LOF]
• 300     *Chaos Lord on Manticore –Timeslip Pendant
• 240     *Sorcerer Lord on Manticore – Infusion Arcanum [LOF]
• 200     *Chaos Warshrine
• 180     *9 Chaos Warriors
• 180     *9 Chaos Warriors
• 200     *9 Marauder Horsemen
• 180     *27 Marauders
• 120     Fatesworn Warband

2000pt          

• 140     *Fatemaster –General [Boundless Mutation]
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner – Arcane Transformation [LOC]
• 300     *Chaos Lord on Manticore –Timeslip Pendant
• 240     *Sorcerer Lord on Manticore – Infusion Arcanum [LOF]
• 200     *Chaos Warshrine
• 180     *9 Chaos Warriors
• 200     *9 Marauder Horsemen
• 60       *9 Marauders
• 60       *9 Marauders
• 60       *9 Marauders
• 120     Fatesworn Warband
• 300     Lord of Change w/Sword – Phantasmal Weapons;  Tzeentch’s Firestorm [LOC]

2000pt          

• 140     *Fatemaster –General [Boundless Mutation]; Aspect of Tzeentch
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner – Arcane Transformation [LOC]
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner –Glimpse the Future [LOF]
• 300     *Chaos Lord on Manticore –Timeslip Pendant
• 200     *Chaos Warshrine
• 180     *9 Chaos Warriors
• 200     *5 Chaos Knights
• 200     *9 Marauder Horsemen
• 60       *9 Marauders
• 60       *9 Marauders 
• 120     Fatesworn Warband
• 300     Lord of Change w/Sword – Phantasmal Weapons; Tzeentch’s Firestorm [LOC]

All of these forces are playing with the Fatemaster's command ability that would allow a reroll of ANY dice from nearby Tzeentch Mortal's within 9".  This is why I've included so many random rolls (ala warshrine ward saves and the like), as you have a shot at rerolling even these special saves with the Fatemaster's ability.  If someone really wanted to lean into this ability, they'd want to use Archeon and it might look something like this:

• 320     *Archeon – Infusion Arcanum [LOF]
• 140     *Fatemaster – Aspect of Tzeentch
• 140     *Fatemaster
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner – Arcane Transformation [LOC]
• 120     *Gaunt Summoner –Glimpse the Future [LOF]
• 300     *Chaos Lord on Manticore w/Lance and Sword –Timeslip Pendant
• 180     *9 Chaos Warriors
• 180     *9 Chaos Warriors
• 200     *9 Marauder Horsemen
• 180     *27 Marauders
• 120     *Fatesworn Warband

This allows you to grant Archeon a bonus attack from Arcane Transformation and get +1 to hit and wound with his attacks, which are both going to make the Slayer of Kings trigger more often.  Alternatively, Treacherous Bond and significantly increase his lifespan (probably linking his wounds to the Chaos Warriors which are 18 wounds with a 5++ and a 6++ to negate the mortal wounds he is sending through the Bond).  This setup will have double Fatemasters which should always be 2 different numbers (since if the second matched the first, you'll get another preroll of that dice from the first's ability).  This allows for copious rerolls on all of the various abilities.

Again, I'm not sold on any of these yet but this is the best I've come up with so far.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the problem is how expensive Chaos Battleline is really... I think Gorebeast Chariots are going to be pretty good, as you can guarantee the charge with your Destiny dice. Shield of Faith is probably going to make the Warshrine somewhat obsolete. Marauder horsemen are pretty good with rend too.
Gaunt Summoner is crazy value too.

A blob of 18 or 20 Chaos Warriors with Halberds is pretty nasty too. I was thinking the following, but I'm pretty sure it's not very good.

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner (100)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
Chaos Lord On Daemonic Mount (140)
- General
Lord Of Change (300)

Battleline
20 x Chaos Warriors (360)
- Halberd & Shield
9 x Chaos Marauders (60)
9 x Chaos Marauders (60)

Units
1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)
1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)
10 x Chaos Knights (400)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (100)

Battalions
Fatesworn Warband (120)

Total: 2000/2000

[N_Watson]

Anyone got any idea what they would do for an arcanites centric list and whether that would be competitive. 

I keep reaching 2k and not all that convinced it is any good...

[Thomas Lyons]

56 minutes ago, Deathadder99 said:

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner (100)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
Chaos Lord On Daemonic Mount (140)
- General
Lord Of Change (300)

Battleline
20 x Chaos Warriors (360)
- Halberd & Shield
9 x Chaos Marauders (60)
9 x Chaos Marauders (60)

Units
1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)
1 x Chaos Gorebeast Chariots (100)
10 x Chaos Knights (400)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (100)

Battalions
Fatesworn Warband (120)

Total: 2000/2000

The GS is 120 points.  You may want to aim at multiples of 9 for the 6+ ward save too.  Just something to think about.

[Changer]

3 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

The GS is 120 points.  You may want to aim at multiples of 9 for the 6+ ward save too.  Just something to think about.

The Gaunt Summoner on foot, without familiars is actually only 100 points.

[Deathadder99]

2 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

The GS is 120 points.  You may want to aim at multiples of 9 for the 6+ ward save too.  Just something to think about.

Gaunt Summoner with Familiars is 120. The new Gaunt Summoner is 100 points. I'm not sure about the multiples of 9 vs the extra attacks tradeoff. I'd need to run the maths. I suspect it's definitely worth it on Marauders. Chaos Warriors and especially Knights you'd have to get a rather large number of points worth of value for the Ward Save to be worth it over another model.

[daedalus81]

1 hour ago, N_Watson said:

Anyone got any idea what they would do for an arcanites centric list and whether that would be competitive. 

I keep reaching 2k and not all that convinced it is any good...

Arcanite Cabal
Fatemaster w/ Paradoxical Shield and Illusionist or Boundless Mutation
Magister w/ Item
Tzaangor Shaman w/ Item

Witchfyre Coven
20 Acolytes
20 Acolytes
3 Enlightened

Alterkin Coven
10 Acolytes
20 Tzaangor
3 Skyfires

Other Units
10 Acolytes
Gaunt Summoner w/ Item

The two units of 10 Acolytes work in tandem with one of the larger units to target a big threat.  The final unit of 20 getting 4+ to hit and 2+ to wound. And they can do this in the hero and shooting phase.

The Alter-Kin also throws out some extra mortal wounds occasionally as well as giving a Tzaangor screen and some Sky Fires.

The Arcanite Cabal allows some large amounts of casting.

[Thomas Lyons]

10 minutes ago, Changer said:

The Gaunt Summoner on foot, without familiars is actually only 100 points.

Huh, I missed that.  So, do we have any idea about the Gaunt Summoner on a disk?

 

[Soulsmith]

1 minute ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Huh, I missed that.  So, do we have any idea about the Gaunt Summoner on a disk?

 

Asked this yesterday on AoS' Facebook page. The GS in the General's Handbook is the disc variant, at 120. The ST GS is in the Silver Tower points PDF, and is 120. The disciples book is on foot, no familiars, at 100.

[Thomas Lyons]

1 minute ago, Soulsmith said:

Asked this yesterday on AoS' Facebook page. The GS in the General's Handbook is the disc variant, at 120. The ST GS is in the Silver Tower points PDF, and is 120. The disciples book is on foot, no familiars, at 100.

So at least the Summoner on Disk hasn't disappeared yet :-)

 

[Soulsmith]

Just now, Thomas Lyons said:

So at least the Summoner on Disk hasn't disappeared yet :-)

 

Which do you feel is the best choice? 100 certainly feels a steal if pushed for those 20 points, otherwise the familiars are quite centric to him being in close proximity to enemies, whereas the disk gives him more maneuverability.

[Thomas Lyons]

5 minutes ago, Soulsmith said:

Which do you feel is the best choice? 100 certainly feels a steal if pushed for those 20 points, otherwise the familiars are quite centric to him being in close proximity to enemies, whereas the disk gives him more maneuverability.

I am a HUGE fan of mobility, especially when you have large blocks of daemons to move in and around (which you can easily do with fly).  I think at least one on foot is necessary as a counter to horde armies.  Lets not kid ourselves: his spell will delete one horde block of 1 wound infantry (like 60 man blocks of clan rats or grots) EVERY round.  Statistically, you'll mortal wound half the unit (so 30 mortal wounds on the 60 models) then the battleshock test is 1d6+30...very little is walking away from that.  His spell is TOO valuable against horde armies, something this force would struggle with otherwise.  So, you'll want at least one Gaunt Summoner on foot, and he is a steal at 100 points.

Also, many lists often come to 1980 (at least for me), which gives you the option to select the upgraded Gaunt Summoner when you need him.

[Soulsmith]

Alright thanks. I am listening to your video you linked earlier and it's putting some faith in me about this forces viability outside of pure daemons or fatesworn. I just don't like the aesthetic of slaves with Tzeentch, there's no subtlety.

[Thomas Lyons]

So, this 20 point adjustment on the Gaunt Summoner actually helped me out quit a bit.  Here is Fatesworn I'm considering:

2000 (2 Drops)

• 320     Archeon – Treacherous Bond (LOF)
• 140     Fatemaster
• 140     Fatemaster
• 100     Gaunt Summoner  – Tzeentch’s Firestorm [LOC]
• 300     Chaos Lord on Manticore w/Sword and Lance –Timeslip Pendant
• 180     9 Chaos Warriors
• 180     9 Chaos Warriors
• 120     18 Chaos Marauders           
• 120     Fatesworn Warband
• 300     Lord of Change w/Sword – Phantasmal Weapons; Arcane Transformation [LOC]

Notes on the force:

• This force is a triple threat of hammers with little Archeon (Treacherous Bonded to the Chaos Warriors, more on this below), the Chaos Lord on Manticore with a possible double pile in and a devastating charge, and a Lord of Change with a Sword attack at -3 rend and 3 damage a swing.  All can be augmented by Arcane Transformation to increase the key attacks of each of the heroes, including Archeon's Slayer of Kings.
•  For command abilities, the dual fatemasters will give two rerolls of random numbers each round that will work on all dice, including all of the ward saves, casting rolls/dispel checks (not on the LOC unfortunately), and even dice for spells (like the 9 dice of Tzeentch's Firestorm, which has the chance to increase the damage on this spell Significantly; 3d3 mortal wounds per cast isn't unlikely).  The Chaos Lord on Manticore buffs the appropriate Chaos warrior unit with rerolls to Charges, wound, and battleshock tests (they'll already be getting rerolls to hit from the two Fatemaster dice numbers as well).  The Lord of Change will also be buffing his, Archeon's and the Gaunt Summoner's casting and dispelling by 1 as well.  
• The Marauders will likely have a possible reroll to their Barbarian Hordes Check (thanks Team Fatemaster!), have a 6+ ward save, and be a good source of bodies for objectives. 
• Archeon is going to lifelink (Treacherous Bond) to a block of Chaos Warriors.  Every Mortal Wound he sends to the Chaos Warriors will get a 5++ and a 6++ ward save to negate, both checks with possible rerolls from Team Fatemaster.  So their 18 wounds will quickly become effectively a 30+ wound shield for little Archeon.  So, yeah, that's pretty good.
• One of the non-caster heroes (Team Fatemaster or Chaos Lord on Manticore) covers the Arcane Bolt, which is granted from the Battalion. 
• Did I mention that all attacks have at least a -1 rend (from the Battalion).  Oh, and I guess there's these things called Fatedice too...

 

Yep, feel pretty good about this lineup. I'm sad I couldn't fit in either the Gorebeast Chariots or Mounted Marauders but I feel pretty good where this ended up.

[Deathadder99]

2 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

So, this 20 point adjustment on the Gaunt Summoner actually helped me out quit a bit.  Here is Fatesworn I'm considering:
 

2000 (2 Drops)

• 320     Archeon – Treacherous Bond (LOF)
• 140     Fatemaster
• 140     Fatemaster
• 100     Gaunt Summoner  – Tzeentch’s Firestorm [LOC]
• 300     Chaos Lord on Manticore w/Sword and Lance –Timeslip Pendant
• 180     9 Chaos Warriors
• 180     9 Chaos Warriors
• 120     18 Chaos Marauders           
• 120     Fatesworn Warband
• 300     Lord of Change w/Sword – Phantasmal Weapons; Arcane Transformation [LOC]

Notes on the force:

• This force is a triple threat of hammers with little Archeon (Treacherous Bonded to the Chaos Warriors, more on this below), the Chaos Lord on Manticore with a possible double pile in and a devastating charge, and a Lord of Change with a Sword attack at -3 rend and 3 damage a swing.  All can be augmented by Arcane Transformation to increase the key attacks of each of the heroes, including Archeon's Slayer of Kings.
•  For command abilities, the dual fatemasters will give two rerolls of random numbers each round that will work on all dice, including all of the ward saves, casting rolls/dispel checks (not on the LOC unfortunately), and even dice for spells (like the 9 dice of Tzeentch's Firestorm, which has the chance to increase the damage on this spell Significantly; 3d3 mortal wounds per cast isn't unlikely).  The Chaos Lord on Manticore buffs the appropriate Chaos warrior unit with rerolls to Charges, wound, and battleshock tests (they'll already be getting rerolls to hit from the two Fatemaster dice numbers as well).  The Lord of Change will also be buffing his, Archeon's and the Gaunt Summoner's casting and dispelling by 1 as well.  
• The Marauders will likely have a possible reroll to their Barbarian Hordes Check (thanks Team Fatemaster!), have a 6+ ward save, and be a good source of bodies for objectives. 
• Archeon is going to lifelink (Treacherous Bond) to a block of Chaos Warriors.  Every Mortal Wound he sends to the Chaos Warriors will get a 5++ and a 6++ ward save to negate, both checks with possible rerolls from Team Fatemaster.  So their 18 wounds will quickly become effectively a 30+ wound shield for little Archeon.  So, yeah, that's pretty good.
• One of the non-caster heroes (Team Fatemaster or Chaos Lord on Manticore) covers the Arcane Bolt, which is granted from the Battalion. 
• Did I mention that all attacks have at least a -1 rend (from the Battalion).  Oh, and I guess there's these things called Fatedice too...

 

Yep, feel pretty good about this lineup. I'm sad I couldn't fit in either the Gorebeast Chariots or Mounted Marauders but I feel pretty good where this ended up.

 

I wonder if you aren't overvaluing the Fatemaster, but that does look pretty nasty.... You could drop a Fatemaster and 9 marauders for Gorebeasts and/or Marauder Horsemen. This is probably why they will end up banning baby Archaeon!

Definitely let us know how that plays.

[Thomas Lyons]

2 minutes ago, Deathadder99 said:

I wonder if you aren't overvaluing the Fatemaster, but that does look pretty nasty.... You could drop a Fatemaster and 9 marauders for Gorebeasts and/or Marauder Horsemen. This is probably why they will end up banning baby Archaeon!

Definitely let us know how that plays.

Will do. I may very well be overvaluing their contribution, but their ability breaks the rules in a way that few other things do since it is ANY dice.  It will basically always give you the option of rerolls on 33% of ALL dice rolled by mortals.  This works on spells for example, so you'll likely get some rerolls with Tzeentch's Firestorm (with each new successful roll doing d3 mortal wounds), the Gaunt summoner's spell that is already doing a mortal wound/model 50% of the time (this would push it up near 66% of the time), and all casting and unbinding (making most spells more reliable.  It is also working on hit and wound rolls, battleshock, armor saves, ward saves, damage and mortal wound rolls, Barbarian Hordes, and anything else that uses a d6.  The only thing I am unsure about is the Timeslip Pendant vs. Aspect of Tzeentch (which would gain 33% reroll chance from Team Fatemaster).  The Aspect would help replenish the Destiny dice.  

So, I guess we'll see.  That said, I like how it looks at this point.

[HERO]

3 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

Yea you've got the right number there.  The test averages an extra 1 mw so 7.94 vs 8.6 or so.  Both are the same cost so I'd advantage the chariot since its 18 wounds vs 12 and they don't need a battalion to get the fly over damage, however Skyfires will be better at taking on hard targets.

I was looking at 9 Skyfires being 36 wounds vs. the 18 from the Chariot.

[HERO]

10 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said:

For those interested, I dropped by @Mc1gamer's YouTube Channel and we talked DoT book contents for two hours.  You can check it out here.

I watched the entire video, but I'm a little dubious on the overall impression that the power level is going to be through the roof.  I'm currently seeing them place on a 6/10, or even 7/10 compared to some of the other... less savory lists out there (tusk ice lance, stormfall, skyre, hunters..etc).

It's great the army is fast and can move well, but the dependency on magic in the hero phase, as great as it is, is still limited to 18" of threat, period.  Other shooting threats just out-range it, especially hunters and ice lance because they can move and shoot.

Also, on the point of the Tzaangors' Icon Bearer, I didn't see this before because I thought:  No way would GW be that stupid.  I mean, who plays individual horrors as Wizards?  Has this never been addressed?  I believe in other GW books "brotherhood" of psykers is still a single psyker unit and not per model basis?