Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Arkiham]

You now what, I read +2 and was like done deal. Stopped reading

 

Maybe it's not so good

[Lucio]

I'll admit towards wanting to field units based around Slaves to Darkness for this supplement, a mixture of Kairic Acoyltes, Chaos Warriors, and Forsaken alongside the Cursling and a War Shrine. By going mortal heavy, the Warshrine should help protect the units and give me a little more survivability than the Tzaangors.

Haven't had time to work out lists yet, as working on the concept, particularly as I'm looking to cross this army over into 40k as well, as part of a Thousand Sons Order of Ruin project (Daemonic Warpsmiths / Dark Mechanicus ties)

My initial thoughts would be to include a Fatemaster, the Cursling, 2 units of Kairic Acoyltes, a Warshrine, and then either some Chaos Warriors with Runeshields, or Forsaken (to me these are proto-Curslings). Eventually expand up into taking the Fatesworn Band, which despite it's Everchosen tag, is still viable due to all units also having Tzeentch as a keyword.

[Deathadder99]

2 hours ago, Lucio said:

I'll admit towards wanting to field units based around Slaves to Darkness for this supplement, a mixture of Kairic Acoyltes, Chaos Warriors, and Forsaken alongside the Cursling and a War Shrine. By going mortal heavy, the Warshrine should help protect the units and give me a little more survivability than the Tzaangors.

Haven't had time to work out lists yet, as working on the concept, particularly as I'm looking to cross this army over into 40k as well, as part of a Thousand Sons Order of Ruin project (Daemonic Warpsmiths / Dark Mechanicus ties)

My initial thoughts would be to include a Fatemaster, the Cursling, 2 units of Kairic Acoyltes, a Warshrine, and then either some Chaos Warriors with Runeshields, or Forsaken (to me these are proto-Curslings). Eventually expand up into taking the Fatesworn Band, which despite it's Everchosen tag, is still viable due to all units also having Tzeentch as a keyword.

Fatesworn Warband is great with a blob of 18/20 warriors with halberd.

[Malakithe]

How troll is this lol

[Lucio]

1 minute ago, Deathadder99 said:

Fatesworn Warband is great with a blob of 18/20 warriors with halberd.

Yeah slight hiccup, I meant the Ironguard, so small mobile units

[Deathadder99]

2 minutes ago, Lucio said:

Yeah slight hiccup, I meant the Ironguard, so small mobile units

Unfortunately I think that the rules prevent you taking a Fatesworn Warband and getting Tzeentch allegiance. Would like it to be FAQed but oh well.

 

Notice it includes warscroll battalions.

and fateworn is Everchosen 

[Lucio]

3 minutes ago, Deathadder99 said:

Unfortunately I think that the rules prevent you taking a Fatesworn Warband and getting Tzeentch allegiance. Would like it to be FAQed but oh well.

 

Notice it includes warscroll battalions.

and fateworn is Everchosen 

Yup, the Disciples of Tzeentch book has some clearer wording. It says a Battallion has a keyword and all units selected are treated as having that keyword. It then goes onto say you can take the Battallion if all the selected units have a common keyword, which they do (Chaos and Tzeentch)

[daedalus81]

4 hours ago, Arkiham said:

You now what, I read +2 and was like done deal. Stopped reading

 

Maybe it's not so good

That's ok, but here's the trick.  It works best on a model that has a 2+ save already.

The only one with that?  The fatemaster in combat.  Since this is a +2 to the roll this means the fatemaster can go up against rend 2 with little extra consequence.

[Shadowheart]

18 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

How troll is this lol

Very, I'd love to try that in open play, let someone buff a unit so its auto hitting, then hit em with that

[Deathadder99]

20 minutes ago, Lucio said:

Yup, the Disciples of Tzeentch book has some clearer wording. It says a Battallion has a keyword and all units selected are treated as having that keyword. It then goes onto say you can take the Battallion if all the selected units have a common keyword, which they do (Chaos and Tzeentch)

Ah that's very good to know, thanks. I need to read my Tzeentch battletome better.

[hobgoblinclub]

Might go with this at 2k. Everything is so expensive! I feel like it might need another big hero though. Any thoughts? Cheers. 

[Deathadder99]

2 minutes ago, hobgoblinclub said:

Might go with this at 2k. Everything is so expensive! I feel like it might need another big hero though. Any thoughts? Cheers. 

Yeah I am finding it hard to add everything I want. Perhaps replace one of the 160 points for the Enlightened for an Ogroid, those are pretty awesome. I'm not convinced enlightened are very good.

[HERO]

Here's another question:

Tz Shaman has the elixir that says he can cast the same spell twice.

Does this overwrite the Rule of 1 in Pitched Battles?

[Malakithe]

Just a random thought. 4 artifacts, tons of spells. Build the LoC for melee incase he gets ambushed.

Near endless chaff and near endless spell range for the LoC with the chariots each running around. And aoe dmg.

No idea if this would even work lol

[Deathadder99]

6 minutes ago, HERO said:

Here's another question:

Tz Shaman has the elixir that says he can cast the same spell twice.

Does this overwrite the Rule of 1 in Pitched Battles?

Nothing overwrites the rule of one afaik. It comes up a lot but FAQ always leans to the rule of one interpretation. Otherwise we would have a Kroak meta. 

[HERO]

My second article which is my newest interpretation of my big bird-led Tz force.

List itself:

2000

LORDS:
Lord of Change
+Tzeentch's Firestorm
+General - Incorporeal Form (-1 to hit in CC)
+Phantasmal Weapons (+1 Rend to all melee)

Tzaangor Shaman
+Shield of Fate
+Fold Reality

Gaunt Summoner
+Arcane Suggestion
+Fold Reality

Gaunt Summoner
+Glimpse the Future
+Bolt of Change

BATTLELINE:
10x Horrors
+Bolt of Change

10x Horrors 
+Unchecked Mutation

10x Horrors
+Arcane Transformation

OTHER:
9x Tzaangor Skyfires
3x Burning Chariots of Tz

Read about my thoughts here:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2017/01/aos-bringing-in-some-skyfires.html

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, Deathadder99 said:

Unfortunately I think that the rules prevent you taking a Fatesworn Warband and getting Tzeentch allegiance. Would like it to be FAQed but oh well.

 

Notice it includes warscroll battalions.

and fateworn is Everchosen 

so, why then can you choose to go chaos when running a Everchosen battalion, or bloodbound or chaos daemons etc, order when running a stormcast battalion, dispossessed and pick order or sylvaneth and pick order items,

if you fulfill the requirements to take an allegiance as i understand it you can choose which allegiance to pick 

if all the models in that army, have the Chaos, Mortal, Tzeentch,  keywords, not only are they given the Everchosen keyword because of the battalion they can pick between any of those 3 allegiance abilities.

 

at least thats how i understand it

[Nico]

8 hours ago, Arkiham said:

A lot of people going straight for the Daemon list,  don't ignore those mortals, pretty much any wizard you want will be on a 2+, put them on a balewind for a 1+.

Even the combat focused Lords will be great, chaos lord on a manticore with a 2+ 5+(against mortal wounds ) as a back up hero will be great and for 300 points that is a sound investment.

I agree with the first paragraph.

The melee Slaves to Darkness heroes are a bit of an embarrassment though.

Couple of quick points as just got back from Heat One.

All Gaunt Summoners are a bargain. Especially the one with the familiars at 120 points (assuming that's still doable). GS on a Balewind is the answer to Kunning Rukk Arrers. Very handy for Tzeentch as they will almost always have at least a small pool of reinforcement points anyway, so you can keep the Balewind in the back pocket along with all your other Daemons.

Maybe I haven't gotten to the point yet, but I suspect that if you try to argue that the purpose of the wording offering alternative lores for Daemons and for Mortals was that the lucky few who are both get both is optimistic. The overarching principle is that each wizard gets one Lore Spell (a few rules are express exceptions to that).  The sensible approach seems to be that Archaon and the GS can choose from one or the other (which is still a rare privilege). If you start expecting both - that's going to look greedy and overpowered and the nerf bat may be swung fast.

It's already clear that DoT is going to be a book that you will want to have even if you have no intention of playing with them. 

There seem to be forces pulling in different directions - so lot's of trade offs and hard choices - which is a feature of the Sylvaneth battletome too.

Cheap battalions and hence plentiful artefacts; awesome new models; the prospect of getting fresh life out of older (Little Archaon and Slaves to Darkness) and recent (Big Archaon) models; interesting options on model counts; phenomenal spells; and the real wild card of how much extra flexibility can you get out of summoning versus the trade off of the risk that your summoners get sniped or otherwise taken out of action.

For other armies there are also the fascinating prospect of the long dormant counters to magic (with Pew Pew, Bunkering and alpha strike fighting it off for a long time while magic took a back seat) other than Sylvaneth and a certain surprisingly popular   

 

 

[daedalus81]

I'm going to keep pushing the Fatemaster.

Fatemaster
-Paradoxical Shield
-Illusionist

Cast mystic shield on him, too.  This results in +3 to save rolls and -1 to hit against shooting and +5 to save rolls in combat.  He is nearly immune to rend - the only downside is having reroll successful saves.  

He also have a 4+ against magic wounds.

If he rolls a 1 for his reroll ability (or shield of fate is cast) and since you can't reroll a reroll his effective save would be as good as an un-modifiable 2+ otherwise it is slightly better than an un-modifiable 3+.   Best tarpit for the points?  Could be a fun distraction. 
 

[Nico]

Quote

so, why then can you choose to go chaos when running a Everchosen battalion, or bloodbound or chaos daemons etc, order when running a stormcast battalion, dispossessed and pick order or sylvaneth and pick order items,

Interesting point, although I raised this point above and concluded that everything listed in the GH section for a Grand Alliance implicitly has that keyword (or alternatively, it's so obvious that it goes without saying). Not every Stormcast Battalion has the word Order stamped on them (anywhere) for example, but no one would suggest that you cannot use Order Allegiance Abilities if you take such a Battalion.

While useful, a Fatesworn Warband is remarkably hard to squeeze into a 2000 point game anyway - 10 units (whether Hero or "regular" Unit) needed. I built a list back in the spring of 2016 using this Battalion). I regretted doing so as soon as the GH came out as the Rule of One killed it (admittedly it became cheaper than under SCGT). I doubt whether it's the biggest loss if we cannot use it. 

[Nico]

Quote

I'm going to keep pushing the Fatemaster.

Fatemaster
-Paradoxical Shield
-Illusionist

Cast mystic shield on him, too.  This results in +3 to save rolls and -1 to hit against shooting and +5 to save rolls in combat.  He is nearly immune to rend - the only downside is having reroll successful saves.  

He also have a 4+ against magic wounds.

If he rolls a 1 for his reroll ability (or shield of fate is cast) and since you can't reroll a reroll his effective save would be as good as an un-modifiable 2+ otherwise it is slightly better than an un-modifiable 3+.   Best tarpit for the points?  Could be a fun distraction. 

I've got one back from that Fatesworn army. 

Definitely a good troll and the rerolls are nice. However still susceptible to flying units right? Also a "phase-dependent" buff, so anyone who has an attack in a deemed combat phase in the hero phase will smash straight through that Hovering Disk rule (it doesn't work as per the new FAQ). For example Kunning Rukk melee.

 

[Malakithe]

Question...if the keyword 'Flamer' isn't in bold then does that mean any Flamers, Exalted Flamers, and Burning Chariots are included in that?

[Soulsmith]

Also, does anyone know if the Gaunt Summoner on disc is still allowed? I cant find his rules anywhere.

[Arkiham]

Yeah, it's got the words so should be fine, check for the silver tower release for aos on Google , should be there 

[Nico]

Quote

Kairos doesn't know every spell though. He knows arcane bolt, mystic shield, and gift of change. He also knows the spells of all other wizards within 18".

For the fourth time of the 50+ times I'll have to say this. Kairos only knows the spells of Wizards "from your army". The Changeling knows those of any Wizard within 9". These two can potentially tag team to learn spells from an enemy unit. 

Also Nagash (remember him?) - occasional emperor of troll - knows the spells of your opponent's Wizards if they are Death (with infinite range) - he kerbstomps Neferata or Mannderp lists when they try to rebel against his Tyranny. 

Since I have a mutated foot in this camp and a gnarled root emitting magical water in the Sylvaneth camp, I should share this point:

Quote

Roused By Magic

As is well known, you can roll a charge without declaring a target and you don't need to make the charge even if you make the roll (you can change your mind). However, you do need to check the 12" range beforehand.

Having reread the core rules ("Casting Spells"), the process is:

1. Roll two dice.
2. Is it cast?
3. Unbinding.

What's missing from steps 1-3 is anything to do with checking that the target is in range.

Arcane Bolt's description says: "If successfully cast, pick an enemy unit within 18" of the caster and which is visible to them."

This is consistent, you cast the spell, then look for a target in range.

The reason why this matters is that it means you can cast your spells even when you know you don't have a target in range in order to pump a Wyldwood's Roused by Magic rule repeatedly on a 5+. It's not a huge point, but worth bearing in mind occasionally. Probably most relevant to Gnarlroot lists where you can easily have 6+ spells to cast, some of which have short ranges.

Apologies if this is extremely obvious.

This also has implications for at least one other army in a different Grand Alliance, which is potentially more important.

 

Edited just now by Nico