Hinterlands: Skirmish Campaigns in the Mortal Realms

[Orruk'sPizza]

I like new rule of 3...

It s a great rule book , don't add too much little rules, 

I like it because its simple...evryone play own hr. In the club

[bottle]

Hey everyone, I went and uploaded a new version; 2.2.1

Firstly I want to say a big sorry for making you download it again.

Secondly, I want to say a big thank you to @Taffin for poking the necessary holes. I want this to be a robust update so I have amended the first rules page to be as follows:

The first change is in the Rule of 3 itself, instead of saying "instead inflicts a normal wound", it now reads "instead inflict normal wounds"

This is to make it 100% clear that if an ability would generate 2 mortal wounds, it now generates 2 normal attacks.

Second is the box below on "Exploding Mortal Wounds". If you don't have any you can just resolve the attack normally. This will mean you are never hoping for a 5 rather than a 6.

I am hoping there will be no more changes needed to the rules for a good long time now. I want a strong system that everyone can play with for the moment, so we can work on other more fun stuff like extra battleplans and campaign ideas  

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by bottle

[hellalugosi]

Good quick fix, very clear now!

 

Im also looking forward to more campaign and battleplan ideas. Has anyone thought about doing time of war rules specifically for hinterlands?

[Taffin]

@bottle This is why this forum is for, we poke holes in each others ideas to make them better.

On the other hand it seems a lot of time and effort to nerf a handful of OP heroes. Me and my group are all casual gamers and we agreed that some units are OP and we just don't recruit them (one example being Stromfiends with Warpfire Projectors). I myself have no HERO in my warband - to me its like shooting down a sparrow with flak cannon (my Megaboss is a killer but he has no army to deal with). This way, by not taking some models we can enjoy a good game of Hinterlands with no additional clunky rules. In my eyes Hinterlands is not a competitive system, and if someone is THAT GUY he will find a way to break any rules we can think of.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Taffin

[Kramer]

25 minutes ago, Taffin said:

@bottle This is why this forum is for, we poke holes in each others ideas to make them better.

On the other hand it seems a lot of time and effort to nerf a handful of OP heroes. Me and my group are all casual gamers and we agreed that some units are OP and we just don't recruit them (one example being Stromfiends with Warpfire Projectors). I myself have no HERO in my warband - to me its like shooting down a sparrow with flak cannon (my Megaboss is a killer but he has no army to deal with). This way by not taking some models we can enjoy a good game of Hinterlands with no additional clunky rules. In my eyes Hinterlands is not a competitive system, and if someone is THAT GUY he will find a way to break any rules we can think of.

Very much agreed. Its amazing to see how much passion and work you put in this but as @Taffin said don't try to get the rules flawless. It's impossible to do so with such an immense variety of options available to players and also the freedom this ruleset offers lends itself perfectly to casual and narrative plays as is.  

 

[bottle]

Thanks guys  I get lots of messages every day about Hinterlands, so it's hard to not want to help when people are having a negative game experience because a broken combo can be taken within the rules. I don't think we'll ever have a perfect rule system but I want to strive for it still.

Saying all that, I also think it is strong enough now to focus back on the narrative stuff. Time of War is an excellent idea, I would like to put together a template for an expansion with guidelines on how communities can create their own exapansions too. I always wanted more of the community to create extras for the system but it hasn't come to fruition just yet, so maybe they are still busy working away or maybe I need to give a little more push, inspiration and guidelines.

If you guys have any more ideas for Battleplans and you are keen to share, drop them in here and we can get a pack together for players to use  

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, bottle said:

Saying all that, I also think it is strong enough now to focus back on the narrative stuff. Time of War is an excellent idea, I would like to put together a template for an expansion with guidelines on how communities can create their own exapansions too. I always wanted more of the community to create extras for the system but it hasn't come to fruition just yet, so maybe they are still busy working away or maybe I need to give a little more push, inspiration and guidelines.

 

This is music to my ears! I would LOVE to produce proper campaign packs for Hinterlands and have lots of ideas rattling around in my head. Would the templates be in Adobe Illustrator format by any chance? I actually already created my own Battletome template using Photoshop and Illustrator, but I've found the battleplan map graphics tricky to replicate. If someone else has already done the work that would be handy! 

First things first though, I actually need to get some games in and familiarise myself with the how it plays. Got the first game of a loosely structured campaign scheduled for 2 weeks time (when my Flesh-Eaters warband should hopefully be finished). Can't wait!

[Dez]

@bottle I had a couple of questions:

In the ritual, what happens if the player enacting the ritual has no models? Nothing says (within Hinterlands) the ritual stops. We played it out anyway for fun, like it was an unstoppable force...and my opponent failed to roll a 4+ and I won with no models on the table haha!

In the same mission, do you roll a 4+ for each model within 4" or is it just one roll per turn?

[hellalugosi]

So @bottle i play a lot of pick and play non campaign games of hinterlands since i like trying out different groups of models all the time, and i think the addition of community created sub plots could help make those games as well as campaign games more engaging. 

So for example it would work like SWA, and you could roll off a chart, and find that one of your models must be deployed in the middle of the battlefield because they are lost, or theres a bounty on an enemy model and you can reroll failed hit and wounds against him but they do double damage etc. 

This helps make pick up games immediately start with a story alongside a battleplan.

I also feel like these could be faction specific, any ideas guys?

Edited April 19, 2017 by hellalugosi

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

 

This is music to my ears! I would LOVE to produce proper campaign packs for Hinterlands and have lots of ideas rattling around in my head. Would the templates be in Adobe Illustrator format by any chance? I actually already created my own Battletome template using Photoshop and Illustrator, but I've found the battleplan map graphics tricky to replicate. If someone else has already done the work that would be handy! 

First things first though, I actually need to get some games in and familiarise myself with the how it plays. Got the first game of a loosely structured campaign scheduled for 2 weeks time (when my Flesh-Eaters warband should hopefully be finished). Can't wait!

Very interested in that as well. 

[Taffin]

@bottle I got a new Battleplan. I called it "Loot and Scoot"

"Both warbands came across a rumour that somewhere in this area is a hidden loot and both leaders are eager to find it."

LOOT LOCATION

There are three possible locations for the loot bag. One is in the centre of the battlefield and the other two are placed on the centre line (left to right) and 8" away from the first location. Mark these locations with small markers.

SET-UP

Players roll a D6 and the winner chooses one table edge parallel to the "loot centre line" other player has the opposite edge . Then players alternate setting up models starting with the player that won the roll off. Models must be placed within 12" of their table edge.

FIRST TURN

The player that finished setting-up first may choose to take the first turn.

THE LOOT

If a model ends its move within 1" of a loot marker throw a dice, on a 5+ the loot was found and remove other loot markers. Test once regardless of number of models within 1" of the marker. If the loot was not found remove the marker. The last marker always has the loot. The loot bag may be picked up in the controlling player hero phase by any model within 1" and if there are no enemy models within 1" regardless of who found the bag (I can already see those thieving rats snatching the bag from under someone's nose). The loot is heavy and/or fragile and the model carrying it cannot move more than 5" in a single turn and can't fly. If a model is slain place the loot marker roughly where the centre of the slain model's base was (to avoid "slingshot" effect).

VICTORY

The player who has the loot at the end of 6th battle round wins the game. If a player brings the loot within 6" of his table edge the game ends immediately. If a player decides to Rout he leaves the loot behind and loses the game.  If neither player owns the loot at the end of 6th battle round the game is a draw and count both players as "losing" when checking campaign outcome.

CAMPAIGN OUTCOME

Winner gets 20 + D6 gold + 3D6 form the loot bag. Additionally the model owning the loot at the end of the game gets either +D6 additional exp or +1" Move (players choice).
Losing player gets 10 + 2D6gold.

This battleplan is just a framework and can be easily adjusted to fit ones needs. If you want more risky game place 6 markers randomly on the map and on a 6+ find the loot. You can remove the movement restrictions giving faster models a advantage. IMHO the only fiddly part are the rewards.

If anyone has an idea to make this battle plan better be sure to comment.

[Wartravs22]

How does everyone find Ogres work in Hinterlands? I feel like having just 3 massively powerful models would be a big advantage most of the time, but then come back to bite you in the ass on missions that require being several places at once.

[Taffin]

14 minutes ago, Wartravs22 said:

How does everyone find Ogres work in Hinterlands? I feel like having just 3 massively powerful models would be a big advantage most of the time, but then come back to bite you in the ass on missions that require being several places at once.

@Wartravs22 I think recruiting few cheap models to fill out your warband will solve that problem. After all, you can pick units not only from one faction. For Ogres I will take some goblins with bows. Goblins lack the staying power but your opponent has to waste some attacks on them if they hold a key objective. Bows give them a slight chance of harming something from a safe distance.

Hope this was helpful.

[VBS]

Took me a while to check Hinterlands but I finally did. And it looks awesome! Exactly the sort of thing I'd rather have for AoS. 

However, I have two questions after reading the rules:

- Clarification for "3 mortal wounds limit": if one has no MW left and casts Arcane Bolt, does it simply mean it inflicts d3 1damage wounds that will allow armour save (since it's rend "-")? So basically, the MW will be inflicted "normally" but allowing an armour save? 

- Just and idea, but maybe introducing a % for Underdog Gambits could be useful? Technically, a 6 or 7 gold difference makes one the underdog, but it is quite irrelevant for the game impact over a 150 gold band. Whereas a Gambit can sometimes give you a sensible advantage. So an idea could be to allow a Gambit roll every 15% or 20% gold difference (when the unbalance is much more noticible)? 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, VBS said:

- Just and idea, but maybe introducing a % for Underdog Gambits could be useful? Technically, a 6 or 7 gold difference makes one the underdog, but it is quite irrelevant for the game impact over a 150 gold band. Whereas a Gambit can sometimes give you a sensible advantage. So an idea could be to allow a Gambit roll every 15% or 20% gold difference (when the unbalance is much more noticible)? 

 

This seems like something that's best dealt with through house rules, rather than adding more complexity to the core rules. I'm terrible at maths and would be irked if I had to do percentage calculations before every game! 

[VBS]

Fair enough  

Although if math is the issue, it could be fixed values (for example "30 gold difference", since the 20% of 150 is precisely that). Would make the math-dread easier   But I do agree that house rules seems to best option!

Edited April 20, 2017 by VBS

[Dez]

@bottle So one player is ahead of the rest, so the rest are all talking about autoroute to get their gold up. What I mean is setting up for a game, and then one player declares they are routing. You still get gold and xp for the scenario, so they just do this ad naseum until they catch up. Way to kill the spirit of the game.

Might be something to think about/faq.

 

[Taffin]

12 minutes ago, Dez said:

@bottle So one player is ahead of the rest, so the rest are all talking about autoroute to get their gold up. What I mean is setting up for a game, and then one player declares they are routing. You still get gold and xp for the scenario, so they just do this ad naseum until they catch up. Way to kill the spirit of the game.

Might be something to think about/faq.

 

Adding a rule that allows a warband to rout only after losing 1/4 or 1/3 or 1/2 of their models? Or maybe something Bravery related? I don't like the idea of adding rules. I like the system for its simplicity, but sometimes there is no choice.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Taffin said:

Adding a rule that allows a warband to rout only after losing 1/4 or 1/3 or 1/2 of their models? Or maybe something Bravery related? I don't like the idea of adding rules. I like the system for its simplicity, but sometimes there is no choice.

I don't know. I find the behaviour described pretty shoddy and sad, but if a group of players decide they want to 'play' that way that's up to them. I don't think the rules should be complicated further just because one small group decides to use them in a way that most of us would consider to be idiotic in the privacy of their own club. It's a slippery slope, creating a new rule every time some extreme situation like this crops up.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Guest

[hellalugosi]

I

11 hours ago, Taffin said:

Adding a rule that allows a warband to rout only after losing 1/4 or 1/3 or 1/2 of their models? Or maybe something Bravery related? I don't like the idea of adding rules. I like the system for its simplicity, but sometimes there is no choice.

Definitely think the SWA routing system works really well. We could have it be roll at the beginning of turn just the same, 1d6 vs your leaders bravery, permanently adding 1 per friendly model lost in the entire game. Starting as soon as you lose more than 25% of the warband?

[Taffin]

4 hours ago, hellalugosi said:

Definitely think the SWA routing system works really well. We could have it be roll at the beginning of turn just the same, 1d6 vs your leaders bravery, permanently adding 1 per friendly model lost in the entire game. Starting as soon as you lose more than 25% of the warband?

@hellalugosi I think this will be to harsh for "horde" warbands. 25% out of 15 is 3.75 so after losing 4th model your leader makes a test with +4 modifier. So the leader must be at lest B5 to have 1/6 chance not to Rout. Maybe allow the player to order a rout only after losing 25% (rounding up) of his/her warband.

Also I was thinking of something along the lines: whenever a friendly model is slain within X" throw a dice adding 1 for every model slain beyond the first and subtracting 1 for every friendly model within Y". If the roll exceeds models bravery it is removed from play but still gets its exp. This isn't also a good solution because it can force the player to test 3 times in one turn (hero, shooting and combat phase).

But then again it adds another layer of rules for a system that is supposed to be nice and simple like

[hellalugosi]

2 hours ago, Taffin said:

@hellalugosi I think this will be to harsh for "horde" warbands. 25% out of 15 is 3.75 so after losing 4th model your leader makes a test with +4 modifier. So the leader must be at lest B5 to have 1/6 chance not to Rout. Maybe allow the player to order a rout only after losing 25% (rounding up) of his/her warband.

Also I was thinking of something along the lines: whenever a friendly model is slain within X" throw a dice adding 1 for every model slain beyond the first and subtracting 1 for every friendly model within Y". If the roll exceeds models bravery it is removed from play but still gets its exp. This isn't also a good solution because it can force the player to test 3 times in one turn (hero, shooting and combat phase).

But then again it adds another layer of rules for a system that is supposed to be nice and simple like

Maybe just tweaking it to 50%? I feel like by then, the game has gone a good length?

[bottle]

21 hours ago, Dez said:

@bottle So one player is ahead of the rest, so the rest are all talking about autoroute to get their gold up. What I mean is setting up for a game, and then one player declares they are routing. You still get gold and xp for the scenario, so they just do this ad naseum until they catch up. Way to kill the spirit of the game.

Might be something to think about/faq.

 

Wow  that definitely seems quite unsporting imo. I will add something in, probably just a single line that they can only be taken after 25% casualties.

I'm going to be on the down-low for a bit, everyone. I have an important job application to put together by the 7th of May, and on the 17th of May I have something cool to show everyone, and after that I will be back in action and looking through all the great suggestions you guys are putting in here!  

 

[aquietfrog]

I've been rereading the ruleset but I seem to be missing a couple of things:

1. What is the endgame winning condition for a campaign?  Is there a definite way to win the campaign?  Or do we just make our own goals?

2. Are XP and Levels ignored in underdog gambits?

[Taffin]

4 hours ago, aquietfrog said:

I've been rereading the ruleset but I seem to be missing a couple of things:

1. What is the endgame winning condition for a campaign?  Is there a definite way to win the campaign?  Or do we just make our own goals?

2. Are XP and Levels ignored in underdog gambits?

This is something I wrote to @bottle about.

After a few battles models cost in gold is not representative of its power. Hoarding gold keeps the Underdog Rating low, but models are getting stronger after each fight. Taking into account warbands total experience level is also not ideal.

My friends and I decided that as for now we will use warbands total gold earned as the Underdog Rating and the difference must be 10 gold or more for it to matter. This way the player that lost more games (or is less lucky) is more likely to be the Underdog. To us this approach seems fair enough.