Battalion rules and caster rules

[Mitsuhida]

My question is in regards to a battalion/formation rule and a spell that is cast on them.

The battalion is called "Death Watch" from the flesh eater book. It states "in your hero phase you can pile in and attack with each unit from this formation as if it were the combat phase."  Now I have a necromancer which cast a spell that stats " pick a mordant/skeleton unit With in 18" that unit can pile in And attack twice in your next combat phase."  Here is where I need to know if I can pile in and attack twice during the hero phase with this battalion by casting on them First and than declare that I'm going to use their ability to attack. Since it sayes "as if it were the combat phase" 

[rokapoke]

I personally read this as "no" because it's not the combat phase -- essentially the Death Watch ability (in my opinion) is "you can pile in and attack with all the rules and regulations of the combat phase." It doesn't create a combat phase (so the Necromancer's spell doesn't help during the hero phase).

Naturally, there are other interpretations, but that's mine.

[Mitsuhida]

Thanks yeah I figured as much but I still wanted to double check. 

[Mitsuhida]

So my next question would be when the necro cast the spell does that mean they can attack twice before my opponent selects a unit to attack with? Or they attack than my opponent attacks and than they atttack again? 

[Nico]

@Sedge and I discussed this in the context of the deemed movement phase of Kunning Rukk (the double or triple move from Hand of Gork happens in the next movement phase from memory). We both agreed that you definitely don't get to benefit from Hand of Gork twice in one turn (both the hero phase move and the movement phase move).

We concluded that it does work on a deemed movement phase within the hero phase, so you could move 10 or 15 inches in the movement phase with Hand of Gork.

Applying this to VDM, you would be forced to use it in the next combat phase (only), which would be the deemed combat phase in the hero phase (which could be good or bad depending on where your unit was). You wouldn't get to pile in and attack four times in the whole turn.

In the deemed hero phase you would pile in and attack twice back to back (because your opponent cannot activate units).

In the combat phase, you activate the VDM unit, then your opponent selects a unit to activate, then you could select the VDM unit to activate again.

Quote

 is "you can pile in and attack with all the rules and regulations of the combat phase." It doesn't create a combat phase (so the Necromancer's spell doesn't help during the hero phase).

This is either self-contradictory or it's creating an arbitrary dividing line. I think you acknowledge that it's not clear in your post. 

Do the units get to benefit from their own abilities (buffs) that they have on their scrolls in the combat phase only (e.g. reroll 1s to hit)? Do they get to benefit from external buffs? The rules don't specify - so most people seem to go with the (fun) approach of everything goes - both your own special rules/buffs etc. and your target's special rules/buffs/debuffs (e.g. shields of the target unit that only work in the combat phase would work in a deemed combat phase where your unit is the attacker).

[Mitsuhida]

That is a valid point wish they would clearly say it as like "only in" rather than "next"

[rokapoke]

On 12/16/2016 at 5:27 PM, Nico said:

Applying this to VDM, you would be forced to use it in the next combat phase (only), which would be the deemed combat phase in the hero phase (which could be good or bad depending on where your unit was). You wouldn't get to pile in and attack four times in the whole turn.

I still contend, in conjunction with the General's Handbook FAQ answers below, that being able to attack as if it's the combat phase does not create a combat phase within the hero phase. Yes, this creates some grey areas in what applies and does not apply, but phase-specific wording must apply, as clearly stated in the first FAQ answer. So in this case, the Necromancer's spell specifically states that its relevant buff takes place in your next combat phase, which occurs only later in your turn (but never in your hero phase).

[Nico]

Quote

I still contend, in conjunction with the General's Handbook FAQ answers below, that being able to attack as if it's the combat phase does not create a combat phase within the hero phase. 

I just don't see how this is practical and seems to ignore the purpose of the as "if it were" language. There are some borderline cases like triggering Fanatics (probably doesn't work) or triggering stand and shoot from a deemed charge in the hero phase (probably does work). 

That first FAQ answer you cite is purely indicating that you can still move again in the actual movement phase - nothing more. Often the deemed phase rules will specify what you can do in the subsequent actual phase - and usually it's that you can do what you would normally do.

[rokapoke]

Quote

That first FAQ answer you cite is purely indicating that you can still move again in the actual movement phase - nothing more. Often the deemed phase rules will specify what you can do in the subsequent actual phase - and usually it's that you can do what you would normally do.

That first FAQ answer I cited is purely indicating that a unit such as Leadbelchers can take advantage of its ability (shown below) -- not to specify that they unit can still use its movement phase. If that were the case, the text of the FAQ would be "No, the unit may still move in the movement phase."

[Mitsuhida]

New FAQ just came out and basically answered my question and yours @Nico with the new FAQ I can't cast that on them and have them pile in twice in the hero phase. Same goes for your destruction army when it comes to the "as if it were the movement phase"