Warhammer Live - The First Day of AOS Water Cooler thread for the Battles

[Gaz Taylor]

So now the first day of Warhammer Live is over and dusted, it's time for us to gather round the water cooler and discuss our thoughts on the show (for those of you not of a certain age, this is what people did the day after a cool TV show was on - i.e before social media!!!).

Rather than talk about the show, let's chat about the games and what people thought of them. 

Did you enjoy the narrative game between Death and Order? What did you think of the forces and the scenario and what would you change?

Did you enjoy the match play game between Chaos and Order? Is there anything you would change?

[N_Watson]

As I finished work at 6pm I have only seen the competitive game so far. 

Stormcast is my new year project so it was refreshing to see something other than the warrior brotherhood do well in a competitive nature. 

Loved the attitude both players had through the game as well. Although you couldn't here what they were saying, you could tell they were right into it. 

[Broxus]

Microphones on the players would be greatly appreciated to help us hear better.  The other thing is using HD cameras to help us see stuff better.  Finally, the overhead camera as the primary camera is hard to follow sometimes since it is so far away.  More close up cameras help show off the wonderful models.  There are some YouTube channels that do AoS battle reports very well doing all the above.

[N_Watson]

3 minutes ago, Broxus said:

Microphones on the players would be greatly appreciated to help us hear better.  The other thing is using HD cameras to help us see stuff better.  Finally, the overhead camera as the primary camera is hard to follow sometimes since it is so far away.  More close up cameras help show off the wonderful models.  There are some YouTube channels that do AoS battle reports very well doing all the above.

The issue with players having microphones has been discussed. As it is an official channel and kids are part of the audience they want to attract, the players won't likely get mics unless it is Warhammer TV people playing because, as I am sure you know, coarse language is quite common with adult war gamers (not a bad thing at all!) and as it is live, can't be edited to keep it child friendly. 

[daedalus81]

In the matched play game - lots of people in chat were saying it was over on the double turn.  I think it was over as soon as the Skaven took the bait to tunnel up on the liberators.  

He brought 600 points on to kill 200.  The SC player then dropped 400 points of direct counter.  He also didn't threaten the Venator, which is puzzling since the general was crucial to the Jezzails and vulnerable to sniping.

In an alpha strike vs alpha strike fight I almost feel like you need to drop hard to force more difficult choices if you're going first.  Having more units in combat for the double turn would have ensured more fights in favor of Skaven.  You force them to respond to you instead of the other way around.

[CoffeeGrunt]

1 hour ago, N_Watson said:

The issue with players having microphones has been discussed. As it is an official channel and kids are part of the audience they want to attract, the players won't likely get mics unless it is Warhammer TV people playing because, as I am sure you know, coarse language is quite common with adult war gamers (not a bad thing at all!) and as it is live, can't be edited to keep it child friendly. 

Live isn't as Live as you'd believe. They typically operate with 30 second delays, and as shown on the Black Library interviews, GW do the same.

We managed to do Live news shows at my school with these kinds of delays, so it can't be difficult to do. It also allows an editor to note when the swear is coming and bleep it to cover the oopsy.

[Requizen]

8 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

In the matched play game - lots of people in chat were saying it was over on the double turn.  I think it was over as soon as the Skaven took the bait to tunnel up on the liberators.  

He brought 600 points on to kill 200.  The SC player then dropped 400 points of direct counter.  He also didn't threaten the Venator, which is puzzling since the general was crucial to the Jezzails and vulnerable to sniping.

In an alpha strike vs alpha strike fight I almost feel like you need to drop hard to force more difficult choices if you're going first.  Having more units in combat for the double turn would have ensured more fights in favor of Skaven.  You force them to respond to you instead of the other way around.

I have to agree - the choice to kill the Liberators was puzzling at best. I could see the decision working out if you had the bottom of turn and were able to use the chance to wipe up the board before everything else came in, but there was still so much left on the building side of the table - nearly all of the shooting was untouched. 

Then again, the Stormcast had 2 objectives to the Skaven's one, but he really should have put the Acolytes on the other one (they're sacrificial anyway). 

Who had choice for first turn, again? Whoever has bottom in this matchup is in at least a bit of an advantage, though I'm guessing the Skaven were expecting to do more damage with the Jezzails.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I enjoyed it but felt it was an open game rather than a narrative one but I guess it'll become more narrative as it we get more games each week. 

[jazzy128]

Is it possible to catch up on this somewhere? Searching for "warhammer live" produces a lot of non related hits.

[TerrorPenguin]

21 minutes ago, jazzy128 said:

Is it possible to catch up on this somewhere? Searching for "warhammer live" produces a lot of non related hits.

http://www.twitch.tv/warhammer

[daedalus81]

1 hour ago, jazzy128 said:

Is it possible to catch up on this somewhere? Searching for "warhammer live" produces a lot of non related hits.

Go to the link above and then go to Videos.  Those videos will be free until next week.  At that point you'll need to subscribe.

[Azure Guardian]

I know they control the venue so its easier on them but I thought this was a massive improvement from Blood and Glory. Having the camera focus on the turn dice rolls, having different camera angles, overlays, having army introductions and army names, it was like they added most of the stuff I asked for in my post so very happy bunny here.

If I had to criticise anything it would be that I still don't think a top down view as the main angle is a great way to watch a game play out, though I do understand it is probably the easiest angle to set up a camera to see the majority of the action. I can't think of an easy solution but it might just be me who doesn't like it.

Either way its looking really likely I am going to drop the fiver for the sub if they keep this up.      

[Spiky Norman]

I like the show in general, but I think the so-called Narrative game was a bit of a let-down. There was very little 'Narrative' about it. Only thing that really was different from the competitive game was that the armies wasn't using points, but that seems about it.

I hope they really up their efforts on the narrative parts, because it could well become the best part of Warhammer TV.

Still I'll try and watch it again next week, and hope it gets better - As Rob said, 'This is probably the worst it'll ever be', as they strive to improve each time. :-)

[polarbear]

The angled cameras are great. Top down should be there but only switch to it every so often, not being the main camera. It should be like watching any sports match. You don't watch top down except the odd shot. 

Also agree the narrative match wasn't super unique. The models were awesome and I enjoyed watching. But it was more just an open, run to the middle and fight game. Wish GW had a deeper idea of narrative rather than being a nicer word for open.

Love the game matches no matter what they play though. Great painting background noise. Didn't think today's show was as entertaining. 

[Rob]

With regards to the narrative game what would you expect to see more of to make it feel more narrative?

[Ben]

What we were saying in the hall is was that, in theory, last nights show will be the worst it will ever be.  And it was already ace so I can't wait to see what else comes along.   

I guess they will learn and improve each week.  Some of the ideas that they have and were freely talking about was very cool but there is too much new stuff to cram all into the first episode.  

If you want to see good examples of this sort of thing just go to your fave/most polished youtuber and go back to their earliest videos.  Even the best debuts are eclipsed by experience.  

I thought the Videos looked great, the addition of extra cams was fantastic.  the ability to zoom around the table was cool. 

On the gaming side it felt to me like the armies were not suited to face off in a feature game.  Both armies work best when being patient and playing the waiting game, I think due to the cameras the players seemed to want to get at it.  I certainly think turn 1 drop from the Skryre was a bad play,  I think I might have preferred to come up with none of it or all of it.  if the whole army came up deep onto the Stormcast table edge it would have force the Skyborne Slayers to really spread out to counter it and potentially get taken apart as they tried to regroup.  

It was a fun game to watch though. 

[polarbear]

29 minutes ago, Rob said:

With regards to the narrative game what would you expect to see more of to make it feel more narrative?

More unique scenarios and army builds maybe. Instead of two armies clashing in the field, I might have liked to see a 95% gunline free guild army on a castle/behind a wall fending off a horde of skeletons, ghouls or something. Entire army of spider riders in a forest-themed board against a horde of brayherd. Horde of brayherd invading a wanderer forest camp. Path to Glory and extended campaigns with some structure would be cool too.

[Ollie Grimwood]

10 hours ago, Rob said:

With regards to the narrative game what would you expect to see more of to make it feel more narrative?

Just a little more story telling within the game itself. The battleplan used is hampered a bit in this aspect because of the lack of specified objectives, it being just kill more of the opponents army. 

I like to have the armies trying to achieve something more than just killing each other, asymmetric objectives/forces and the like. That said I do understand it is week one and that it was just the opener and it will be leading onto other things. I'd also say that I thought the set up story and commentary of the units and characters did add a nice narrative. 

[Azure Guardian]

Would love to see the names of the heroes and generals in the game if the players have named them. Maybe talk about who these generals and heroes are, why they are leading this group, why are they dedicated to taking this town/field/etc. If the armies battle again then set up a rivalry a la Korghos Kaul and Vandus Hammerhand. Talk about the history of the town they are fighting over a little more, talk about what the army that wins plans to do there (are they using it as a jumping off point for a larger campaign or is holding the city itself the main goal), what the army that loses is going to do to recuperate.  

[Kuma]

would love to see the models close up. Some good army shots pre game would be wonderful

[Ben]

2 hours ago, Kuma said:

would love to see the models close up. Some good army shots pre game would be wonderful

They did an excellent job of this in the narrative game. 

[Knight of Ruin]

I love the potential that thesr sort of narrative games can have for aos. Aos being as new as it is, it can really use a hand in establishing a feel for the world and the place our little toy soldiers have in it.

 

If they can show that off in these games, it will help reduce the biggest complaint aos has currently. Lack of fluff for the commom man/dwarf/tree.

 

Something like a village or encampment coming under attack, freeguilders dwfending their stronghold, or stormcast teleporting into a dreadhold to achieve something.

 

However if they keep playing kill more than battleplans, they will actually increase the amount of complaining regards the fluff.

 

So the potential is there. Just gotta realise it.

[Terry Pike]

I think it was quite a bad choice in army selection for the first warhammer live matched play game for a few reasons.

If both players pushed the game correctly it was other for either of them on the first double turn. Worst case scenario this game would have been over in like 40 minutes when they are trying to fill a full 2.5 hour slot.

I thought it was pretty insulting to Joe that the game was dragged out so long by giving him the priority a few turns in a row and then not bringing down the prime further prolonging a game that had already been won.

Having seen Joe's army in person I know its not just grey, however on the stream it does just look like unpainted models on lime green lava.

Sound quality needs to be looked at as there were some very harsh static sounds coming through, sounded like a loose connection.

I'll be subscribing and checking it out as overall its going in the right direction and should be great for the hobby.

[Gaz Taylor]

Nice to see we've had a mixture of thoughts/replies.

Camera Angles/Sound/Production Quality

As @Ben as said, in theory the show on Wednesday (well this week really) is the worst it will be. Any teething issues found this week will be found out and shouldn't happen again. Also for a first go at this, what they did was amazing. Yes they did some other coverage but as a first show in a series this week has been amazing. Just check out stuff other people have done when starting out and compare it to what they are producing now. Even the nation's most beloved couple - Ant and Dec, had very rough stuff compared to how they present live TV now  

Games

I've only really been able to catch bits of these or have on in the background but I'll agree with pretty much what's been said in this thread. Again, it's their first time doing it and on paper it sounded good.

So what armies would people like to see? Are there any players somebody might want to see play as well?

[Riyathe]

I really enjoyed the first day of warhammer live. Its great seeing GW doing this and hours and hours of content for a fiver a month, free if your on amazon prime is really cheap for what we are getting so value wise its a steal.

From having spent a great deal of time making/editing battle reports and testing different methods of bringing the warhammer game to video, still camera/moving camera etc and receiving feedback on what people liked/disliked i have a few constructive criticisms i will put forward. (disclaimer - im sure they have ideas and will get much slicker at this with experience, just throwing my 2 cents in)

 

1) you cannot make everyone happy - some people like moving camera, some people think still camera looks more professional, the vast majority prefer moving camera and up close views on the table. Over head camera is good to get tactical perspective in short bursts but shouldn't be the main camera. Main camera should be up close on the action and clearly showing the dice rolls (showing dice rolls is so important, use dice trays if need be to keep rolls in frame), this was partially fulfilled by the side angle cameras they had but they did not switch to them enough and they were not moved around and zoomed into the best angles enough. (its not easy to do this but would provide a far more immersive experience and help viewers follow the game), having the cameraman roam around the table from time to time with the camera would be ideal and i would encourage testing it and getting some feedback - im sure viewers will appreciate it. yes it may inconvenience the players slightly but ultimately give thousands of viewers a better experience.

2) Introducing the players, armies and battleplan - A more sequenced and comprehensive introduction to who the players are (preferably with a quick dialogue, A good camera pan over the armies setup  (pregame) discussing the list and how it works and then into the board/battleplan 

3) Overlays - too much of the screen was the turn marker and banner showing narrative game 1 etc, screen space is so valuable i would prefer these be much smaller and more video on the screen, also not having all cameras in frame all the time would free up space and look less cluttered.

4) Commentary - More emphasis on what is going on in the game, the live team do a great job of keeping a dialogue with the viewers and stream but i felt the content of the dialogue was not emphasising what was actually going on in the game enough. Commentators focus should be on staying up to date with the game and presenting that to viewers rather than interacting with the stream and general chit chat/banter while missing critical moments of the game (stream interaction can be done when there's a little down time here and there). It cannot be easy for the commentators to keep a track on the game so relaying what is happening on the table needs to be quick and accurate - i think they get info from the table at the moment but it seems patchy. Live mic on the table is a probably a bad idea, it may not be stream friendly.

5) Breaks - there needs to be some filler content for the breaks rather than a still image, im sure it turns away a lot of viewers when a break starts. Even if its GW advertising or highlights from the previous week of content (just something to fill the void)

6) its a personal thing although quite a few also commented - i don't think "concept" armies should be put on stream, i don't believe they look good on camera especially at distance and a large part of the enjoyment for me and i'm sure others is looking at the painted miniatures, i'm sure some might if done in a visually pleasing way but for me models should be painted in a more realistic way (i dont know any way of saying that better but its not meant to be insulting to those that have put time/effort into a concept army)..i understand this statement is subjective.

7) Selling the armies online - this seems like a great idea BUT for clan skryre for example as you cannot buy the warpfire thrower and it is a requirement for the gauch coven thing how can you bundle this without making is clear as day that it does not include everything you need? and not an actual representation of the army on the stream..its fine some minis aren't available any more but make it clear to the viewers/buyers that it is not a complete army bundle. Imagine the look on 14 year old timmy's face when he spends 6months of his pocket money on the bundle and then finds out he cannot run it . 

8) Competitive lists will sometimes destroy each other by turn 2/3, don't string out the games to fill 2.5hrs, either have a backup game running to switch to or some filler content to move on with. Making players play in certain ways to string out the game isn't enjoyable as a viewer and i'm sure as the player. We all know hes giving priority to the other guy just to string it out - that's not "competitive"

 

9) Better table lighting, the colours look dull and washed out, a few soft lights around the table would make the minis look alot better.

this is becoming a wall so that'll do from me. 

Again great job to the warhammer live team, all of the above is meant to be constructive, i've subbed and really enjoyed the first week so far and excited to see this service continue and improve.