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dark elves in order?


Kosmion

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yo!

 

something that confuses me because I'm not well educated on the AoS lore really: why are dark elves allied with the forces of order? why would Sigmar even accept them and why would the DE even want to join? didn't they secretly worship slaanesh?
 

thanks

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2 hours ago, Kosmion said:

yo!

 

something that confuses me because I'm not well educated on the AoS lore really: why are dark elves allied with the forces of order? why would Sigmar even accept them and why would the DE even want to join? didn't they secretly worship slaanesh?
 

thanks

This discussion did break out on another topic recently with a lot of split views on it. 

Discussion started on page 73 if you want to read up on what had already been said.

I don't think that they fit with order particularly well, but got a fair bit of abuse for having that opinion haha! I think that an argument can be made for them being part of any of the grand alliances personally, however I am sure that the discussion will continue here and someone will express how I am wrong :D

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As what I understand (maybe I'm wrong), they are in Order because they did not seek the destruction of the old world. Order for me is just an alliance, not of "good guys", but of people who seek to survive the Chaos threat.

But yeah I can also see them as Chaos, because of the Slaneshie side they have. Or even being I Destruction, because they torture for the fun of it (like Orcs that smash stuff for the sake of lols).

I'd like to see Destruction becoming the seven sins: Orcs for wrath, Ogres for glutonny, Dark Elves for lust, Goblins for greed, and so on. But thats just me :)

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Well the messed up part is that you could place them in three of the four alliances fluff wise very easily. Order: they build civilisations, Chaos: they worshipped Slaanesh and Khaine, Destruction: they are raiders that hate the world and destroy and enslave for fun. 

And until GW releases the fluff (and I don't think even they know where the story is going) we can only speculate, which is fun ;)

1 hour ago, Braggoth said:

I'd like to see Destruction becoming the seven sins: Orcs for wrath, Ogres for glutonny, Dark Elves for lust, Goblins for greed, and so on. But thats just me :)

That's an amazingly good suggestion. very characterful.

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Back in the Old World, you are right that some Dark Elves did worship Slaanesh. It's important to note however that this wasn't the norm, and in fact these cults were hunted down and destroyed by the Dark Elf authorities.

Yes, occasionally Malekith dabbled in summoning Demons himself, but he only did it for necessity to try and win back Ulthuan. Malekith abhorred demons.

bear in mind, before the sundering, Malekith was the most ardent defender of the Elves. As his father before him, Aenarion, he fought Demons constantly.

Everything Malekith did was to win back the Phoenix Throne. We see in the End Times that he then uses that throne to unite the Elves against he threat of Chaos.

Malekith is definitely not a "good guy", but he's definitely an anti-Chaos guy. He's also an overly patriotic Elf, and fiercely xenophobic. He would never permanently align with Chaos (though he would use them to his advantage). He would also never permanently align with anyone, only temporarily to serve his interests.

Sigmar united gods and heroes across the Realms to stand against the un-ignorable threat of Chaos. Malekith/Malerion aligned with Sigmar because it served his, and his people's, interests.

Dark Elves are currently banded under Order, not because they are "good guys", but because they needed to do defeat Chaos. With Chaos still existing, we won't see any future Dark Elf releases leaving Order. Sure, we will probably see numerous back-stabbing and betrayals; but at the end of the day they'd rather stand beside a Man or an Elf, than a Demon; a skeleton or an Orc

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Malekith was hardly betrayed for the ***** aelves nobles, he was burned alive, he survived for few and he build a nation, and fight for reclaim his what is of him for right.

His guy is ***** awesome, he abandoned his mother, who helped him arround a millenium, because she is evil and he dont need his help more. He just used his mother for his own desires. And this desire is take what is of him. 

In end of times he pass again the asyuran flame and he was right.

This guy is a badass, maybie you dont like his methods, but what you do if you are the Prince and the nobles burn you alive and exile you a millenium of year's? Probably yoi betray you own races and try to kill all of him. Bue malekith only killed the nobles who betrayed him. And he want be a good king, he exile his mother for evil acts, because is bad for his reign.... I think he need to be in order. He win it.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I think they fit best under destruction.

Many people will exclaim "order doesn't equal good". Sure. Ok. That's fine. But that doesn't automatically make it the best fit for dark elves.

Despite dark elves' noble and good origins, they degenerated over milennia into a race described as pure hatred for everything. Hence the rules for hatred that applied to the entire army for a long time. They worshipped the god of murder, and tortured endlessly for fun, even their own kind.

This fits SO much better under Destruction, let alone the fact that Destruction could use more factions and Order is bloated.

I think the real reason they are under Order is most likely because at some point GW wants to make just "aelves" and be done with further divisions. Possible sub faction for the shadow realm for those who dwell there but I don't think those beings will be "aelves" any more.

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2 hours ago, Bosmer Nightblade said:

I think they fit best under destruction.

Many people will exclaim "order doesn't equal good". Sure. Ok. That's fine. But that doesn't automatically make it the best fit for dark elves.

Despite dark elves' noble and good origins, they degenerated over milennia into a race described as pure hatred for everything. Hence the rules for hatred that applied to the entire army for a long time. They worshipped the god of murder, and tortured endlessly for fun, even their own kind.

This fits SO much better under Destruction, let alone the fact that Destruction could use more factions and Order is bloated.

I think the real reason they are under Order is most likely because at some point GW wants to make just "aelves" and be done with further divisions. Possible sub faction for the shadow realm for those who dwell there but I don't think those beings will be "aelves" any more.

You are most likely right on the reasons but I don't feel destruction is a good fit. I feel order is right, mostly. The scourge privateers are the raiders and slavers of the DE. Delighting in slaughter and cruelty. So you good argue that  they should be in Destruction. The Daughters of Khaine worship a chaos god. (I long had the suspicion that it wasn't Khorne but Slaanesh in a sub form, but in more recent years they just came out and said it was Khorne)  

But in general the DE are concerned with building a grand empire because they are convinced that's their rightful place. They hate everybody because they manage to resist them and their fate of being outcast of their once great empire. Also they are very much oppose Chaos and used to function as a wall against the invading chaos barbarians and daemons. I like them in Order because they add that grittyness to a alliance that would otherwise be so squaky clean. 

Chaos= Wants to turn the realms into chaos realms
Death= Wants the world to be static and well... dead.
Destruction= Live for the joy of battle and are not interested in ruling just destroying
Order= Resists the above factions and tries to re-create a world with grand cities and progress. And I think the Dark Elves are a very good (and cruel) part of this. 

 

 

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The reason they are in order is because there are no longer separate factions. After the end times they became 1. Also even though they do not necessarily do good, they do favor non anarchy. And order was the closest fit.


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8 hours ago, Bosmer Nightblade said:

I think the real reason they are under Order is most likely because at some point GW wants to make just "aelves" and be done with further divisions. Possible sub faction for the shadow realm for those who dwell there but I don't think those beings will be "aelves" any more.

Yep! This^^^

I think we will see an Aelf army with multiple sub-factions. Much like the Sylvaneth are very similar to wood elf tree spirts, I imagine there very likely will be some unsavory shadow folk who harken back to the dark elves but are themselves  a distinct faction.  The FyreSlayers are a great example of this as they are Duardin but they are also their own faction.

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I am super excited to see what they do with Malekith/Malerion in this universe, after seeing what they did with Allarielle I can only imagine they have a super cool, maginificent, shadowy, bad ass sculpt in the pipe line.

I do believe that the Dark Elf faction did belong in the Order faction after End Times, it actually turned out that Malekith fit there better than some of the goody, goody High Elf charecters in the end. Yeah some of the Dark Elf sub factions could belong in other places, but aren't there always some sketchy charecters even on the 'good' side of every story. Sudo-pirates and blood loving lunatics have there place in Order just as much as some of the High Elf crazies that were summoning Skeletons in the End Times! xD

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The faction of Order isent to be confused with "good".

If you look at the 40k universe Order is the direct opposite to Chaos.

Neither are inherently evil however from our point of view. Structure, Law, and generally obeying the laws of physics is seen to us as a good thing therefore order is naturally the preferable option for the "good guys". However not all the races of order in the 40k universe are all that good as many of their acts would appear evil.

The main distinction is Order seeks to eliminate chaos by bringing law and stability through kingdoms and cities and all the other things that we try to do in real life to make the world work.

A good example would be some of the worlds most "Evil" dictators (Wont go into specifics as i dont want to get told off for politics). These dictators arent what we would call "Good" to say the least. But the simple fact is that (For one reason or another) they were trying to impose Order they were not causing wars for the sake of it.

Chaos on the other hand does what it does because it does. Going from real life to fiction. Heath ledgers Joker quote from dark knight about being an "Agent of Chaos" where he talked about that fact that "hes a dog chasing cars" and that he "Just does".

 

So linking this to the exiles.

No they wearnt all slannash worshippers that was just a series of cults that Malekith chose to ignore for political reasons(It was morathi who was the servent of slannash so the jurys still out on her)

The Dark elves of the old setting wanted to build and conquor and create order. even if it isent a very nice one. They had no desire to see the world or mortal realms be consumed by chaos.

Necrons from 40 k are order. But i wouldnt really consider them good.

 

However despite everything ive just said i will admit that they do feel a little off but perhaps its is due to the fact that we dont yet know the state of mind of Malerion. and also 40k and the old world didnt place nearly as much emphasis on the different alliances. You alway knew that they were there but it wasent a significant "thing".

Ultimately i think the exiles need their own order subfaction keyword (Some fancy word for evil like Maleficent or Baneful)

but at the end of the day they are exiles . . . .

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Solid discussions posted so far, definitely makes them a versatile faction for story purposes.

Given the subfactions of them could easily fit into the other Alliances (but for current storyline purposes do suit Order), what if GW released the Shadowkin faction under Destruction, or a return to the Cult of Slaanesh in Chaos, what are your thoughts on the existing subfactions breaking off and joining others? (or at least having the option to choose between Alliances)

Would that be cool, or would it be a mess for existing players' collections? Interested to hear your thoughts, I'd personally like to see that flexibility.

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8 minutes ago, Thornshield said:

Solid discussions posted so far, definitely makes them a versatile faction for story purposes.

Given the subfactions of them could easily fit into the other Alliances (but for current storyline purposes do suit Order), what if GW released the Shadowkin faction under Destruction, or a return to the Cult of Slaanesh in Chaos, what are your thoughts on the existing subfactions breaking off and joining others? (or at least having the option to choose between Alliances)

Would that be cool, or would it be a mess for existing players' collections? Interested to hear your thoughts, I'd personally like to see that flexibility.

Good question. Let me think:

The one thing that annoyed me about the change to AoS felt like 'my' armies were broken up. I still limit myself to units that were in those armies while making lists. Even more than synergy. But that annoyance reduced over time and I appriciate the faction system more and more (especially with the bright future that all faction will get bonuses for staying within them.) So yeah that would be cool. Witch elves that after ages of being distrusted that finally snap and massacre a part of the capital and open a portal to Khorne. Hellz yeah.

Also building an Slaanesh Chaos army. Would love to give them and my dark elves a similar theme. As if they were the same people with a decade of corruption between them :D 

So for personal reasons. Yes! In general: I think it's a tricky concept. If you have Cold one knights because you need cavalry  support for your duardin and suddenly you can't field them together. That sucks for models that you pay €30 per five for. 

 

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50 minutes ago, Thornshield said:

Solid discussions posted so far, definitely makes them a versatile faction for story purposes.

Given the subfactions of them could easily fit into the other Alliances (but for current storyline purposes do suit Order), what if GW released the Shadowkin faction under Destruction, or a return to the Cult of Slaanesh in Chaos, what are your thoughts on the existing subfactions breaking off and joining others? (or at least having the option to choose between Alliances)

Would that be cool, or would it be a mess for existing players' collections? Interested to hear your thoughts, I'd personally like to see that flexibility.

I am so glad I was too lazy to start a Cult of Slaneesh Dark Elf themed army back in 8th... 

I find it unlikely they will go in that direction for splitting up armies, having said that who knows what is going on with Morathi in Shadow.

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  • 3 months later...
On 15.12.2016 at 5:22 AM, Kosmion said:

why are dark elves allied with the forces of order?

First, there are no dark elves anymore. Second, all of them have their own reasons but most of it is that they despise Chaos in all its form and Chaos drove them from their lands so it's the common enemy. 

On 15.12.2016 at 5:22 AM, Kosmion said:

didn't they secretly worship slaanesh?
 

No.

All in all you should read the Grand Alliance: Order, it has a bit of fluff for them all and explains basics.

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This is a good question and the old Druchii (Dark Elves) had basically 4 internal factions - the Raiders (Corsairs etc), the Slanneshii, the Khanites, and the rebel Elves. There has always been a definite split between Morathi and the Slanneshi Druchii from the Khainites. There was a game mechanic in 5th or 6th edition specifies that Witch Elves didn't trust Sorceresses (except Morathi because she was the supreme Witch Elf and Sorceress). So YES the Dark Elves that followed Morathi should be Chaos aligned but thus far it looks like that group is gone because of the changes GW is making to Slaanesh.

Malekith's guys are more "Lawful Evil" to use DnD terms. The Khainites are like the Eldar just more brutal and the Corsairs are pirates but not Chaotic. So according to GW they fit the Order alliance. Now IMHO the Dark Elves belong in Destruction becuase Pirates and Amazons dedicated to the God of Murder are not Order. That said GW have ring-fenced Destruction as the abhumanoid - Ogres, Trolls, Orcs and Goblins - so I doubt Elves will get added to this (which IMHO is a pitty).

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On 1/19/2017 at 4:58 PM, Thornshield said:

Given the subfactions of them could easily fit into the other Alliances (but for current storyline purposes do suit Order), what if GW released the Shadowkin faction under Destruction, or a return to the Cult of Slaanesh in Chaos, what are your thoughts on the existing subfactions breaking off and joining others? (or at least having the option to choose between Alliances)

Would that be cool, or would it be a mess for existing players' collections? Interested to hear your thoughts, I'd personally like to see that flexibility.

3

I think this would be great. But my gut feeling is that all GW Aelfs will be Order and if there were to be a Chaos Aelf release it'd be through Forgeworld (not a bad thing though).

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  • 2 weeks later...

I tend to think the aelves who are on the less socially acceptable fringes of society are what the dark elves have become.

These are mobsters, crime families, mercenaries, labor workers on the high seas, cultists, and beast tamers. Still valid parts of order culture, but not necessarily one that others will like you for. Those aelves who do not fall under these branches are what we would consider 'high' aelves. Born outside poverty, into higher education, be it in architecture or in arcane knowledge. Loyal guard in azyrian armies, and trusted officials. Stark contrast to those in on the outside. I believe its why we saw corsairs in the city of secrets. These are more common in compact bustling cities.

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  • 1 month later...

I'd like to see Destruction becoming the seven sins: Orcs for wrath, Ogres for glutonny, Dark Elves for lust, Goblins for greed, and so on. But thats just me [emoji4]
Would place duardin for greed, but love the idea.



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