Sigmars recruitment

[Coganaut]

So was curious on how Sigmar recruits souls? for the stormcast. In particular does he only recruit humans? I know he chooses heros that stand against chaos but i havent read anything from the realmgate books (as of yet) that state he only grabs humans. 

Anyone read anything about this yet? if not what are your thoughts on Sigmar grabbing Ogres, Dwarvs, elves, ect to fill his ranks?

[Darth Alec]

As far as we know, he only takes humans. All references have been to humans so far. The Aelfs and Duardin have their own "guardian gods", who would probably be very against Sigmar taking their follower's souls. Nagash is already annoyed enough. No need to add Tyrion and Grungni to the list of gods who won't cooperate. He could probably take Sylvaneth souls as well, had he wished.

 

So I don't think it's theoretically impossible, just thematically and narratively problematic.

[AGPO]

Until my home-brewed fluff is overruled, I think he'd happily recruit anyone of any race that followed his creed. I think that the aelves and duardin who live in Sigmarion for example must venerate him as much as their own gods if not more.

My DIY heroes from the world that was are also now present in my stormcast army having been reforged. 

[Coganaut]

@Darth Alec yeah i recall the angry lord of death. do you think the other gods would be upset? in a way Sigmar would  be saving his people by reforging them, imo. i guess it can be viewed both ways however.

@AGPO haha i am starting my own homebrew fluff thats the reason I am asking  i am working on some some Dwarfcast eternals.

[AGPO]

In that case rule of cool applies!

[shinros]

In context of the current lore it looks to be only humans and considering how sigmar is messing with the cycle of souls and stealing warriors from nagash. I think the other gods would not be amused if they did such a thing. 

Still don't let it stop you converting your own stuff plus it's homebrew and if I recall correctly someone has converted some dwarfcast eternals. 

[Coganaut]

 

@AGPO rule of cool >>> Fluff

@shinros in the end all I am doing is a head swap and some runes here and there. guess i could always go with; "They are stationed in a duardin city, to help defend against chaos. Lacking replacement equipment the local duardin build helmets and armor for them as needed. to show their thanks the stormcast begin following typical duardin tradiotions, like growing out their beards."

[shinros]

1 minute ago, Coganaut said:

 

@AGPO rule of cool >>> Fluff

@shinros in the end all I am doing is a head swap and some runes here and there. guess i could always go with; "They are stationed in a duardin city, to help defend against chaos. Lacking replacement equipment the local duardin build helmets and armor for them as needed. to show their thanks the stormcast begin following typical duardin tradiotions, like growing out their beards."

[Luke]

"In the midst of battle across the Mortal Realms, the mightest of Human, Orruk, Aelf and Duardin kind were transported away in a flash of lightning, for a greater cause than defiant suicide against the Chaotic hordes awaited them. Each of these mighty warriors, be they veteran or youngling, found themselves standing in Sigmaron, the Palace Among The Stars,where their trials were about to begin."

 

This was the quote that got me going with the Stormcast Orcternals! Make what you want, and fit it into the fluff.  And stuff anybody that doesn't like it.

http://z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=35043

[Coganaut]

 

@shinros funny you post that. it was my original inspiration on the idea. 

@Luke really like that quote!

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, shinros said:

That's brilliant!

[Soulsmith]

Isn't there a stormcast in the books that is a redeemed follower of Nurgle?

[hellalugosi]

I believe the main rule is that devotion to sigmar must be part of the chosen. In that way I see no reason why there wouldn't be an aelf or duardin sigmar follower here and there. Rare, but still possible. And in the face of death, faith can change. 

 

 

[shinros]

42 minutes ago, Soulsmith said:

Isn't there a stormcast in the books that is a redeemed follower of Nurgle?

He was stolen from nurgle and brainwashed(in my opinion) those killed by the celestant prime and ghal maraz their souls are taken to be "judged" by sigmar. All it took was the celestant prime caving in his head with ghal maraz to get at his soul.  

[Darth Alec]

8 hours ago, shinros said:

He was stolen from nurgle and brainwashed(in my opinion) those killed by the celestant prime and ghal maraz their souls are taken to be "judged" by sigmar. All it took was the celestant prime caving in his head with ghal maraz to get at his soul.  

This is AoS. Things like purity of soul are very real concepts. Sigmar is good, Chaos is evil. Since Torglug had some good left in his soul, Ghal Maraz cleansed him by applying some percussive maintenence. That part isn't brainwashing.

 

Being reforged does include some sort of memory altering though. Mostly be removing memories of ones past life. Vandus specifically thinks about this in Gates of Azyr.

[shinros]

10 minutes ago, Darth Alec said:

This is AoS. Things like purity of soul are very real concepts. Sigmar is good, Chaos is evil. Since Torglug had some good left in his soul, Ghal Maraz cleansed him by applying some percussive maintenence. That part isn't brainwashing.

 

Being reforged does include some sort of memory altering though. Mostly be removing memories of ones past life. Vandus specifically thinks about this in Gates of Azyr.

Problem is that sigmar has been stealing nagash's warriors from under him while he has been fighting chaos and considering how he was talking they don't sound like sigmarite worshipers. Plus how nagash describes their mannerism's and how none of the stormcasts never go against their mission even if they have complaints, he compares them slightly to undead.

 Torglug when he was not corrupted does not sound like a sigmarite either when nurgle was corrupting him, Even Tarsus has a dislike of the undead and does not wish for them to be raised but in the past he had an amythest cape and his city was built on the hands of the undead.

So sigmar is most likely altering something in their memories but how far does it go? And in my mind he does not seem like in a "rush" to find possible means to fix well the bad parts of the reforging. I could be totally wrong but anyway sigmar is doing this for the greater good and all that.  

[SeanMaguire1991]

13 hours ago, shinros said:

Problem is that sigmar has been stealing nagash's warriors from under him while he has been fighting chaos and considering how he was talking they don't sound like sigmarite worshipers. Plus how nagash describes their mannerism's and how none of the stormcasts never go against their mission even if they have complaints, he compares them slightly to undead.

 Torglug when he was not corrupted does not sound like a sigmarite either when nurgle was corrupting him, Even Tarsus has a dislike of the undead and does not wish for them to be raised but in the past he had an amythest cape and his city was built on the hands of the undead.

So sigmar is most likely altering something in their memories but how far does it go? And in my mind he does not seem like in a "rush" to find possible means to fix well the bad parts of the reforging. I could be totally wrong but anyway sigmar is doing this for the greater good and all that.  

Well in the novel "Wardens of the Everqueen" when Torglug sees the Celestant Prime he is reminded of the perfection he once sought for and Nurgle's hold on him weakened and was reminded of everything Nurgle did to him. You don't really need to worship Sigmar to taken you just need to hate chaos.

[shinros]

1 hour ago, SeanMaguire1991 said:

Well in the novel "Wardens of the Everqueen" when Torglug sees the Celestant Prime he is reminded of the perfection he once sought for and Nurgle's hold on him weakened and was reminded of everything Nurgle did to him. You don't really need to worship Sigmar to taken you just need to hate chaos.

That's not the point I am trying to make. My issue is with the "alterations", the new names etc they are suddenly sigmarite worshipers after reforging. Plus sigmar does not seem in exactly a hurry to deal with the reforging problems or seems THAT concerned. 

Also stealing souls of another gods warriors after turning around and going "hey I want an alliance with you!" and sending said warriors back to said god. I dunno man sometimes i wonder what sigmar is thinking or perhaps he thought nagash would not figure it out. 

He would not have found out if mannfred did not try to trap the stormcast soul in a piece of the black pyramid. Nagash pretty much tells mannfred that "problem" is for another day. 

[SeanMaguire1991]

21 hours ago, shinros said:

That's not the point I am trying to make. My issue is with the "alterations", the new names etc they are suddenly sigmarite worshipers after reforging. Plus sigmar does not seem in exactly a hurry to deal with the reforging problems or seems THAT concerned. 

Also stealing souls of another gods warriors after turning around and going "hey I want an alliance with you!" and sending said warriors back to said god. I dunno man sometimes i wonder what sigmar is thinking or perhaps he thought nagash would not figure it out. 

He would not have found out if mannfred did not try to trap the stormcast soul in a piece of the black pyramid. Nagash pretty much tells mannfred that "problem" is for another day. 

I don't think Sigmar really cares what Nagash thinks, more like he hates Chaos so much that its given him an ends justify the means mindset.

[Kramer]

On 12/13/2016 at 9:53 AM, Darth Alec said:

Sigmar is good, Chaos is evil.

Im not really sure is Sigmar can/is still considered fully 'good'. In the sense that he now tries to control and instead of guide/allow to grow naturally. But that also be my personal views that I transfer onto some of the behaviour that's attributed to Sigmar. But will see what new fluff brings. The game is still young...

[Darth Alec]

10 hours ago, Kramer said:

Im not really sure is Sigmar can/is still considered fully 'good'. In the sense that he now tries to control and instead of guide/allow to grow naturally. But that also be my personal views that I transfer onto some of the behaviour that's attributed to Sigmar. But will see what new fluff brings. The game is still young...

 

If you transfer our ideas of political philosophy over to the Mortal Realms, then Sigmar becomes distinctly murkier. That's true. Sigmar is not a liberal "hands off" sort of government. Nor cares he much for the proleteriat. Democracy doesn't mean a lot when you're ruled by a God-King who commands armies of immortals.  If he tried to "guide/allow to grow naturally", what do you think would happen? Remember the setting. In terms of utilitarianism, virtue ethics and deontology, he's good.

 

The utilitarian view is simple. What is Sigmar fighting to prevent? That the entire universe is killed off and turned into hell. In that light, literally all means are allowed. He does break a number utilitarian forms, but those issues become small in context of the death of the universe.

 

Is Sigmar virtuous? To a high degree. He is wise, and applies this in a practical manner. He's brave, strong, and excels in all he does. The other gods seems to trust him (except Nagash), so that's another plus. He's a bit selfish, but he also acts quite selflessly. The Stormcast are literally imbued with a piece of his power, essentially weakening himself in order to allow the mortal realms to have a viable army. He's proud, for sure, and has made some definite mistakes. But overall, it seems that Sigmar's personal character is good.

 

As for Sigmar's deontology, it becomes a little complex. He's not really a mortal, and he need not necessarily act by the same principles as them. I'm just not sure Kantian ethics really apply to him. Either way, we don't have enough data.

 

Nagash, for example, lacks most of these things. He's not good. There is a utilitarian argument for Nagash, but it's not great.

[Kramer]

28 minutes ago, Darth Alec said:

The utilitarian view is simple. What is Sigmar fighting to prevent? That the entire universe is killed off and turned into hell. In that light, literally all means are allowed. He does break a number utilitarian forms, but those issues become small in context of the death of the universe.

Yeah, but this 'dilemma' and the reasoning the end allows all means is one of the oldest set ups in storytelling. I'm probably a bit biased by my work as a filmmaker and storyteller but to me the character of Sigmar feels set up as to take certain values and take them to the extreme. That's usually the moment in a story right before viewers realise the character is on a slippery slope that he cannot come back from. Which adds to the drama and depth of the relationships. i.e. Boromir, who is essentially good (uses the same argument as Sigmar, the end justifies all means) but is on such a slippery slope he ends up being the bad guy. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

Or how whenever an Imperial character is portrayed in 40K fiction, they're rarely full-Imperial. I.e., Commissar Cain and Gaunt aren't as ruthless as Commissars tend to be: one's a self-confessed coward and the other's a lead-from-the-front kinda guy. The PoV characters in the Horus Heresy tend to have viewpoints more aligned with modern views than what might be prevalent in the setting itself.

[Strength_Hammer]

4 hours ago, Kramer said:

Yeah, but this 'dilemma' and the reasoning the end allows all means is one of the oldest set ups in storytelling. I'm probably a bit biased by my work as a filmmaker and storyteller but to me the character of Sigmar feels set up as to take certain values and take them to the extreme. That's usually the moment in a story right before viewers realise the character is on a slippery slope that he cannot come back from. Which adds to the drama and depth of the relationships. i.e. Boromir, who is essentially good (uses the same argument as Sigmar, the end justifies all means) but is on such a slippery slope he ends up being the bad guy. 

I feel must also examine Sigmar's past to examine his potential future.  In his origin trilogy he constantly faced the destruction of what he held dear.  His clan, His empire, and ultimately his world.  As his power grew, he also gained more to lose and each time he had to take a "Long Game" approach to ensure survival. 

He has now seen a world lost and it was really the first time his hammer couldn't solve every problem.  When he was discovering the Mortal realms his hammer was with him and good solution to the problems.  When the Mortal Realms faced destruction and his Hammer failed him again he decided to lay down the warrior mantle and become a God-King.  

Sigmar is a warrior and he always will be, but now he must become a leader who doesn't lead with his hammer.  He has always struggled with this in is past on The World that was.  When he struggled he could rely on his friends, but they are no more and he is alone with his leadership.  While there are other God's he is a First Among Equals and the view he must take is beyond anything he has ever known.

A boy became a king, the king became an emperor, the emperor became a god.  That scope is hard to truly understand.  His end game is the destruction of Chaos while Chaos has been the destruction of everything else.  Sigmar is in an arms race to save reality. 

 

 

Also @Coganaut I vote for rule of cool.  Sigmar has only reforged humans from what we have seen, but the story feels open enough to incorporate other races without much issue.  

[shinros]

59 minutes ago, Odiamh said:

I feel must also examine Sigmar's past to examine his potential future.  In his origin trilogy he constantly faced the destruction of what he held dear.  His clan, His empire, and ultimately his world.  As his power grew, he also gained more to lose and each time he had to take a "Long Game" approach to ensure survival. 

He has now seen a world lost and it was really the first time his hammer couldn't solve every problem.  When he was discovering the Mortal realms his hammer was with him and good solution to the problems.  When the Mortal Realms faced destruction and his Hammer failed him again he decided to lay down the warrior mantle and become a God-King.  

Sigmar is a warrior and he always will be, but now he must become a leader who doesn't lead with his hammer.  He has always struggled with this in is past on The World that was.  When he struggled he could rely on his friends, but they are no more and he is alone with his leadership.  While there are other God's he is a First Among Equals and the view he must take is beyond anything he has ever known.

A boy became a king, the king became an emperor, the emperor became a god.  That scope is hard to truly understand.  His end game is the destruction of Chaos while Chaos has been the destruction of everything else.  Sigmar is in an arms race to save reality. 

I really like this post.

Funny enough I recall them making a similar point in the campaign books, you have to also remember that when sigmar blasts stormcast recruits apart with lightning he does it in the "chamber of the broken world" pretty much where he keeps the core of the warhammer world. They make the express point in books and lore he does not want a repeat of past mistakes. The significance of that place is perhaps a reminder of his failure all of the incarnates failure. 

In fury of gork it's said he has his general's and stormcast study the history of the world that was for war purposes. End times love or hate it reveals that the warhammer gods came from a world destroyed by chaos. In context of that I feel that was why Ulric was pretty much levid that Teclis messed with and ruined the flames and perhaps Ulric felt Teclis ruined their chances.

Lileath was doing her own schemes which also failed because in her own elf way perhaps if she did not view the bretonnians as simple pawns and meatshields they may of still been there. Think about it Asuryan chose Malekith as the chosen king considering his character in context such people are needed to fight chaos. 

Asuryan is revealed to actually help seed most of the life on the warhammer world to the gods to stakes were high and they were doing all in their power in their own way to defend against chaos. 

With the incarnate's slowly becoming gods history is repeating itself again their world and home was destroyed they died but because they became one with the wind of magic they reformed into gods. Even nagash seems to be trying to "save" the realms in his own way in the times of legend sigmar it's revealed nagash truly believes that if people were undead or followed his will there would be peace. 

Perhaps being dead for so many years having your spirit split up and hanging on to different folks changes your perspective? 

Perhaps he was right? Since shyish so far seems to be the only realm that is pretty much in the "contested" state while most realms have fallen under chaos sway. Plus mannfred fighting for over 400 years helped. In the audiodrama nagash tells his followers all who can hear him that he will come and crush those that harmed the things that "belong" to him. His worshipers belong to him and the dead belong to him all that threaten it are his enemies and he will show no mercy. 

I find nagashi's quite interesting I mean you can read/listen about mortal folk in shyish in the audio drama and they seem "good" people pragmatic as well. I mean hell nagash got even mannfred to admit he is a god and his master. He must be doing something right. Also Josh reynold's insight about them since he wrote human nagash worshipers. 

Still is becoming undead or a worshiper of nagash such a good thing? Or does sigmar have the right idea? It's quite grey and I personally quite enjoy the slippery slope that sigmar is going down. The same thing happened to the warhammer world gods look at their choices and who they chose as their "champions". 

Honestly I feel end times and the AOS lore has made everything become more hmm "lovecraft" I feel a endless hopeless cycle of war, gods rising and falling and the normal people taking the "brunt" of that war. With no end in sight.