Can Ungor Raiders move 15" before the game?

[nuttyknatty]

So, Ungor Raiders have a bonus move after set up. Would they be able to utilise the Bray Shaman's Bestial Vigour rule also?

 

 

[Andreas]

IMO yes. Depending on a lucky run roll. Or actually 16" if they have a banner.

[BaldoBeardo]

Oh snap "at the start of the movement phase" is a totally different thing altogether.  No matter how you read "as if it is the movement phase", it's not the start of the movement phase either way.

Please tell me that's sarcasm, because otherwise I give up!

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[rokapoke]

I still contend that "as if it's the movement phase" only means "with the same restrictions as the movement phase" -- we are not recreating the movement phase within the hero phase. The General's Handbook FAQs seem to back up my interpretation. 

 

 

[amysrevenge]

Oh snap "at the start of the movement phase" is a totally different thing altogether.  No matter how you read "as if it is the movement phase", it's not the start of the movement phase either way.

[Terry Pike]

As its written you cannot use the extra movement. Because its not the start of your movement phase you never actually trigger this effect. You are just allowed to move following the normal rules for the movement phase, you are not actually in that phase for the purpose of special rules etc.

It can be read both ways, so again like most of these 2+ page threads an FAQ either way would resolve it. At FaceHammer and Blood & Glory these special rules were ruled No. It stops a lot of weird interactions especially with Sylvaneth.

[amysrevenge]

On 12/5/2016 at 7:05 AM, BaldoBeardo said:

There's plenty. Best bet, look for@amysrevenge posts in the rules forum.

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Haha.

Summary:

Here is the best attitude to take, for the most enjoyment for everyone.  When presented with the phrase "as if it was the movement phase", don't immediately find all the ways in which to behave as if it was NOT the movement phase.  Treat it like the movement phase to the maximum extent you can.  If you find yourself saying "but you can't do that now,  it's the hero phase, not the movement phase", you have the wrong attitude - it IS the movement phase.

[RuneBrush]

1 minute ago, Andreas said:

And to take the other sida. "as if they where moving in the movement phase", lets look hos far they would have moved in the movement phase, that's 6" + 3" + D6+1".

You could counter argument that the ability only triggers once the game has started (i.e. it's your movement phase and not a pseudo moving movement phase).  But it'd be quite easy to end up on one those viscous circles  

1 minute ago, Andreas said:

But regardless I think you could just to go with the +3", it feels right and I dont think anyone would challenge it. IMO

Completely agree that I'd be playing it like that - I'd likely just run it past my opponent to make sure that they're not massively against it.  Still shocked at quite how quick the 'herd can be!

[Andreas]

18 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Playing devils advocate (and all in the subject of healthy discussion).  I'm going to say probably not, my RAW interpretation is as follows:

The Infuse with Bestial Vigor ability triggers from the Great Bray-Shaman at the start of your movement phase - the key word being "Your".  Your movement phase hasn't started as it is actually the end of setup - in fact there hasn't been any phases yet, it's not your turn and you haven't even nominated your general if you follow the rules to the letter 

The Vile Invaders rule also says "as if they were moving in the movement phase", not "as if it were the movement phase", which is the normal phrasing.  The moving part of the movement phase occurs between the start and the end - but doesn't include them.  This means that nothing has occurred to trigger off the Great Bray-Shaman's ability (go directly to moving, do not pass start, do not collect buff).  

They can however run, so with a banner you could punt up to 13" across the board and with a hornblower could then charge up to 12".  An 'ideal' move would be to run but stay within 8" of the Great Bray-Shaman (conga line) and then do another move/run (between 11" and 16") and then you're highly likely going to be in range to hoof something in the teeth!

In the interest to keep things as clear as mud, I think Infuse with Bestial Vigor represents the Great Bray-Shaman bleating and being noisy at units nearby so my RAI interpretation is they ought to get +3", but breaking the rule down into it's component parts there's more to say no than yes.

And to take the other side. "as if they where moving in the movement phase", lets look hos far they would have moved in the movement phase, that's 6" + 3" + D6+1".

But regardless I think you could just to go with the +3", it feels right and I dont think anyone would challenge it. IMO

[RuneBrush]

Playing devils advocate (and all in the subject of healthy discussion).  I'm going to say probably not, my RAW interpretation is as follows:

The Infuse with Bestial Vigor ability triggers from the Great Bray-Shaman at the start of your movement phase - the key word being "Your".  Your movement phase hasn't started as it is actually the end of setup - in fact there hasn't been any phases yet, it's not your turn and you haven't even nominated your general if you follow the rules to the letter 

The Vile Invaders rule also says "as if they were moving in the movement phase", not "as if it were the movement phase", which is the normal phrasing.  The moving part of the movement phase occurs between the start and the end - but doesn't include them.  This means that nothing has occurred to trigger off the Great Bray-Shaman's ability (go directly to moving, do not pass start, do not collect buff).  

They can however run, so with a banner you could punt up to 13" across the board and with a hornblower could then charge up to 12".  An 'ideal' move would be to run but stay within 8" of the Great Bray-Shaman (conga line) and then do another move/run (between 11" and 16") and then you're highly likely going to be in range to hoof something in the teeth!

In the interest to keep things as clear as mud, I think Infuse with Bestial Vigor represents the Great Bray-Shaman bleating and being noisy at units nearby so my RAI interpretation is they ought to get +3", but breaking the rule down into it's component parts there's more to say no than yes.

[BaldoBeardo]

No, they get 3" bonus whenever they move as long as at the point they start the move they are within 8" of the Shaman.

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[Kramer]

3 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Whether they are in range after the post-setup movement is irrelevant. They get the bonus 3" for the post-setup move.

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Do you mean they can get the bonus inches in de pregame phase, and again in the first turn phase even if they are not within 8"?

[BaldoBeardo]

There's plenty. Best bet, look for@amysrevenge posts in the rules forum.

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[StealthKnightSteg]

interesting! Would love to read up on that discussion where you get all the caveads from the movement phase. Do you have a link on that?

[BaldoBeardo]

Whether they are in range after the post-setup movement is irrelevant. They get the bonus 3" for the post-setup move.

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[StealthKnightSteg]

19 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

This has been done to death elsewhere.
"As if in the movement phase" provides all caveats the "standard" movement phase does.

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But what you are saying is true then you should add 3" to the "after setup" movement and not to the "normal" movement they have (as by then they are probably not with in those 8" anymore)

To describe it in my example it would then be this?

So sequence will be:

Before Hero phase (after setup) : extra move of 6" by the ungors +3" as they get the caveat from the Great Bray Shaman (if within 8")

Hero phase

Movement phase: measure distance between Ungors and Great-bray shaman

- if still within 8" they can add 3"movement to their 6" plus they can add an additional D6 for running, potentially moving 24"(6+3+6+3+6) (small chance)

- if not within 8" they do their normal movement plus a potential run for 21" (6+3+6+6) max movement

[BaldoBeardo]

This has been done to death elsewhere.
"As if in the movement phase" provides all caveats the "standard" movement phase does.

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[StealthKnightSteg]

13 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

No, they just need to be within 8" when they start the move. "As if it was your movement phase."

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They make their extra move after setup and they need to make that move as if they would do so in their movement phase, that still doesn't mean they ARE in their movement phase.

So sequence will be:

Before Hero phase (after setup) : extra move of 6" by the ungors

Hero phase

Movement phase: measure distance between Ungors and Great-bray shaman

- if still within 8" they can add 3"movement to their 6" plus they can add an additional D6 for running, potentially moving 21"(6+6+3+6)

- if not within 8" they do their normal movement plus a potential run for 18" (6+6+6) max movement

[BaldoBeardo]

Yes they would, but you need careful placement to get i working though! As the Ungor Raiders move extra (normal move of 6") in the hero phase, the unit then still needs to be within 8" of the shaman to be able to get the bonus 3"

No, they just need to be within 8" when they start the move. "As if it was your movement phase."

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[StealthKnightSteg]

Yes they would, but you need careful placement to get i working though! As the Ungor Raiders move extra (normal move of 6") in the hero phase, the unit then still needs to be within 8" of the shaman to be able to get the bonus 3"

[Paul Buckler]

For sure they can, its a great bonus for them.  They are not seen much in AOS which is a shame as they are very characterful, and decent in game as well.

[hobgoblinclub]

Yep. Definitely. 

They're also pretty hitty with all the buffs on. I lost 7 rat ogors to an ungor charge the other day!