Zombies battleline

[Tizianolol]

I'm sorry guys , but I have another doubt.. on the warscroll I red that two units of zombies can be united into one! So if my battleline is 3x10 zombies in my first hero phase I can play 30 zombies? And it still count as 3 battleline units?;)

[StealthKnightSteg]

4 minutes ago, DeadlySarcasm said:

So you would need to pay points for unit C in this scenario under matched play

hmm interesting, but I would say no, as your not summoning a new unit on the table as the "new" unit is already paid for by the 2 original units. GW would do good to get this FAQ'ed

[BaldoBeardo]

Wasn't directed at you, Rokapoke!
But it's the biting edge of matched play.
Yay points, boo restrictions.
Up until I checked the GHB wording earlier, I was in the "yes they can" camp.
FAQ will override it I'm sure.

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[rokapoke]

6 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

"Not being fair" isn't exactly evidence. Not the first unit to get tapped with the nerf bat under matched play.

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I never claimed fairness as evidence (not sure you were replying to me, but your response seems to fit my post).  Fairness colors my opinion, which I expressed in my previous post. 

[BaldoBeardo]

"Not being fair" isn't exactly evidence. Not the first unit to get tapped with the nerf bat under matched play.

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[rokapoke]

44 minutes ago, hobgoblinclub said:

Personally I don't think it should be allowed. Allowing Death to avoid taking 3 battleline isn't simply a matter of making this zombie unit more effective. It has a knock on effect to the whole army. Players wanting a big unit of zombies can do so without paying points for another two units. It's effectively a 'core tax' saving which will allow that little bit of elbow room when trying to squeeze other stuff into the list. 

While I fell in @Squirrelmaster's third option camp, I agree with @hobgoblinclub's assessment. If it feels gamey that Death can get around the 3 battleline unit requirement, it shouldn't be permitted.

[Squirrelmaster]

I'd say there's three options:

1. if you "add models to existing units", then you don't pay any points, but can't go above starting strength
2. If you "add units to your army", then you can have any size unit, but you have to pay the points for it
3. If you having two or more units "merge and become a single unit" isn't either of those things, then you don't have any additional restrictions.

By strict RAW, I'm leaning towards option 2, but I feel like option 3 was intended.

If we're arguing what is "fair", then I'd have to say that a big unit of zombies just plain isn't worth taking, compared to an equally big unit of skeletons, no matter what buffs or synergy you throw in, unless you can have it count towards multiple battleline slots. Zombies would still be viable as the cheapest way to fill out your minimum battleline and put some expendable units on the board, but that's the only way people would run them.

In other words, it's not going to let you add more non-battleline to your list, it just means that you have to field your minimum battleline as 3 units of 10 instead of 1 unit of 30. The points cost will be the same, but the zombies themselves will just be less effective.

[hobgoblinclub]

Cheers @DeadlySarcasmIt's definitely difficult to resolve. The two options you've put forward bring some clarity to the debate. Between the two of them they seem to close off any avenue other than 'they can't merge without paying for them again'. That said, the words coming from GW via @Countmooresuggest otherwise!

Personally I don't think it should be allowed. Allowing Death to avoid taking 3 battleline isn't simply a matter of making this zombie unit more effective. It has a knock on effect to the whole army. Players wanting a big unit of zombies can do so without paying points for another two units. It's effectively a 'core tax' saving which will allow that little bit of elbow room when trying to squeeze other stuff into the list. 

[Countmoore]

From GW 'That is a great question and one that we hope will be addressed in a future FAQ. The way we play it here in the office is that it forms one new gigantic unit - just makes sense to us! - Nick'

 

I know it's hardly official but should be a good indicator for direction of travel

 

 

[David Griffin]

There have been other threads where this has been debated around and around. I think there are legitimate rulings both ways, depending on interpretations. Until we have an official FAQ from GW, the best path forward will be to talk to your opponent in a friendly game or the tournament organizer in a competitive setting. 

Personally, I think zombies are hot garbage without this special ability, and it should be an exception to the rule. That said, in all of my games, I have been playing with the assumption that they cannot merge and have found uses for 3 units of 10.

[DeadlySarcasm]

Any "new unit" needs to come from reinforcement points unfortunately under the generals handbook.

I think @hobgoblinclub has it spot on here. GH says no unit can exceed its maximum starting size, so you have either;

1. One of the units being merged is taken over its starting size, which is not allowed under the GH
2. The merged unit is a "new unit" of zombies, and therefore you MUST pay reinforcement points under the GH

This needs an FAQ to clarify it, but looking at rules as written the above are the only 2 possible interpretations of it.

[DeadlySarcasm]

9 minutes ago, StealthKnightSteg said:

I think yes, in my view it's unit A and unit B to create unit C.

Then there is never an increase of models beyond the starting point for A or B as C is a complete new unit

So you would need to pay points for unit C in this scenario under matched play

[StealthKnightSteg]

I think yes, in my view it's unit A and unit B to create unit C.

Then there is never an increase of models beyond the starting point for A or B as C is a complete new unit

[Tizianolol]

I don t know ... I think the best thing is to ask to a tournament players..maybe they know the answer

[BaldoBeardo]

Interesting - zombie merge is listed under abilities, so would indicate it does fall foul of the GHB rule - "Spells or abilities..."
So strict reading, no?

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[Tizianolol]

Guys I'm sorry but I'm bad at English..can I unit my 30 zombies with 10 zombies in my first turn in matched play or not?;)

[Squirrelmaster]

Matched play says: "spells or abilities cannot increase the number of models in a unit to more than it had at the start of the battle".

The zombie rules say that two units "merge and become a single unit".

It's generally agreed that those two rules don't interact.

 

[hobgoblinclub]

Doesn't matched play state no unit can ever exceed its starting size though? I don't have my book on me, but I'm sure you can't do that. It'd be pretty unfair to allow Death to effectively ignore the battleline restriction, whilst everyone else is forced to adhere to it. 

[Tizianolol]

Thank a lot:)

[Double Misfire]

Yep! Death is pretty great that way.

Battlefield roles only count for the purposes of army selection and mean nothing once the game's begun. You can even summon more leaders, behemoths and artillery than you'd be able to deploy at the start of the game if you really want to! (just don't plan on giving them any artefacts...)