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Timing of abilities that triggers on wounds


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Hi,

When do you resolve abilities that trigger of a model/unit taking wounds? As a Sylvaneth player I have two examples, but I'm sure that there is a lot more with similar timing issues. 

Example A. Treelords Impale. The ability says that you should check for remaining wounds and then roll a dice. If the roll is higher than the remaining wounds the model is slain. So if I inflict 4 wounds with Sweeping Blows and 1 with Massive Impaling Talons on a model that had 6 wounds remaining before the attacks - do I have to roll a 6 or 2+ (if the opponent choose to assign the MIT wound first)?

Example B. Seed of Rebirth. When the model is slain it heals D3 wounds. If my Branchwych with 2 wounds remain is inflicted 4 wounds, do I take 2 first then roll for Rebirth and finally take the last 2 wounds? Or do I take 2 wounds, 2 wounds are wasted and then I roll for Rebirth? 

 

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As for example B, you'd die from suffering the initial wounds then anymore would be wasted then you'd heal the D3. 

 

For example A, I believe you stack all the unsaved wounds into a pool. until all the attacks from the model ( (s) in the case of a unit) are done. Then apply them to the victim, then make the roll for the impale. 

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Example A, my understanding is you roll there and then. There's no precedent for tracking wounds individually once they are pooled, and all attacks are effectively simultaneous.
In your example, the SB wounds go to the pool.
Impale has no effect because until wounds are allocated, creature has 6 wounds.
If it was a 5W creature, then impale would trigger on a 6 and the SB wounds would be wasted.
If those attacks were made against a unit of multi-wound troops, then impale would be triggered against the basic W value of the unit, or the W value of an already wounded model (as they are first in line to receive damage).
E.g. unit of W3 models with one on 2W, the SB would go to the pool, impale triggers, you roll a 3 which beats the two. The wounded model is slain outright and then the SB wounds are allocated as normal. If impale didn't trigger, then pool would receive 5 wounds (SB+I), not just 4.


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44 minutes ago, khsofsso said:

For example A, I believe you stack all the unsaved wounds into a pool. until all the attacks from the model ( (s) in the case of a unit) are done. Then apply them to the victim, then make the roll for the impale. 

You could of course track source of the wounds in the pool, even if that seems to go against the overall design philosophy of AoS. I agree that this seems to be the most reasonable way to handle everything that triggers of wounds being dealt. 

21 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Example A, my understanding is you roll there and then. There's no precedent for tracking wounds individually once they are pooled, and all attacks are effectively simultaneous.
In your example, the SB wounds go to the pool.
Impale has no effect because until wounds are allocated, creature has 6 wounds.
If it was a 5W creature, then impale would trigger on a 6 and the SB wounds would be wasted.
If those attacks were made against a unit of multi-wound troops, then impale would be triggered against the basic W value of the unit, or the W value of an already wounded model (as they are first in line to receive damage).
E.g. unit of W3 models with one on 2W, the SB would go to the pool, impale triggers, you roll a 3 which beats the two. The wounded model is slain outright and then the SB wounds are allocated as normal. If impale didn't trigger, then pool would receive 5 wounds (SB+I), not just 4.

Interesting! I didn't even consider the option that it could trigger before the wounds was allocated and applied to models. This would work well with save-after-save where you can ignore wounds after failed saves. 

Thanks for your answer. I can still see that there are several different ways to resolve triggers like this and there might not be a simple rule to use for all triggers. More opinions would be appreciated.

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The main issue is that AoS semantics are *really* woolly. It would help if they referred to wounds as CAUSED when added to the pool, and INFLICTED when transferred from the pool to individual models.
In this case, I believe impale is triggered when a wound is 'caused'.

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Maybe im just getting confused from what been said above.

Just to confirm. your saying that if a model with a orginal W10 enters the combat combat phase with only 3 wounds left you would perform the impale roll based on its remaining wounds then.

As you dont allocate wounds until all attacks have been made and the "Impaling talons" ability imply that you make the roll for it straight after you succesfully inflict a wound (not to be confused with suceeding a wound roll???)

So essentially all damage taken by the TL during that battle round doesent count towards it only damage taken previously?

I was reading it as if people were suggesting that the ability is based on the wound characteristic and not the remaining wounds which is not the case.

again may be a misread not a gripe.

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53 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

The main issue is that AoS semantics are *really* woolly. It would help if they referred to wounds as CAUSED when added to the pool, and INFLICTED when transferred from the pool to individual models.
In this case, I believe impale is triggered when a wound is 'caused'.

Agreed. Also, you do not determine damage until all attacks has been carried out according to step 4 of making attacks. Even worse they use a mix of inflicted and allocated wounds in the inflicting damage part of the rules.

It is far from clear when to trigger the Impale and Rebirth abilities. I could easily see that you have to track the wound and when the opponent choose to allocated/inflict it that's when the ability trigger. With the same ruling Rebirth would trigger when the number of inflicted wounds equals the Wounds characteristc of the model and after the Rebirth has been resolved you carry on allocating/inflicting wounds.

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After a lot of discussions and thinking in our playgroup I think you have to rule that Impale happens after all wounds from all attacks are allocated and inflicted.  

You can't possibly trigger Impale directly after failed saves because the wound has not yet been allocated to a model. It's very clear (well...) in the rules that you have to carry out all of your attacks before you Inflict Damage. It's not reasonable to make an exception and allocate the MIT wound before all attacks are done and you can not possibly demand that the MIT should be carried out last and allocated/inflicted first (and then trigger Impale). 

The next option is to actually track the MIT wound and trigger the ability when the wound is allocated/inflicted. This seems reasonable even if it somewhat goes against the over all design philosophy of AoS where GW try to keep things simple. It's not that complicated though and could easily be done. However, if you manage to increase the damage output of MIT the Impale ability would go nuts. If you cause 2 damage Impale would trigger twice, using the reasoning above. I've only played AoS for a couple of months so the only way I can think of to increase damage is the Order magic item that increase damage of a weapon by 1, but I'm pretty sure there are more ways or at least will be in the future. I'm pretty sure that MIT and Impale is not meant to be turned in to a machine gun that mow down models with 2-4 wounds. 

That leaves us with the only reasonable option that Impale is triggered after all wounds have been allocated/inflicted. 

As for Seed of Rebirth - It's quite clear that the model dies as soon as the number of allocated/inflicted wounds match the models wounds characteristic so it should most likely have to trigger during the allocating/inflicting wounds process. Remaining wounds in the pool should then be allocated/inflicted to the model allowing it to be killed twice by the same attack. It's not that Seed of Rebirth is the best item even if this is not the case, but a ruling like this would make it almost useless. Any thoughts regarding this?

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I would apply all the wounds/damage to the unit and then see what's left, then roll it. So if 9 wounds are done to 2 wound models, take off 4, then roll the Talon against the fifth model and it dies on a 2+.  

I agree with @BaldoBeardothat all attacks are effectively simultaneous. since all attacks are done by a unit and aggregated into a pool and then the other player allocates damage. This means that it's often not possible to say that a particular weapon killed a particular model. Since there are many abilities that involve a particular weapon killing something, I came up with the "does it contribute to the kill this combat phase" approach with @Leonardas at the South London Legion approach originally with Archaon (the near useless Heads). Basically, provided the Heads contributed at least one wound to the pool (got through the saves), then you got the buff even if you notionally "killed" the target with the claws or some other melee attack of Archaon or even the Slayer of Kings autokill. This does mean that you should always roll the heads first or at least before the Slayer of Kings.

Otherwise you end up with an extremely time consuming approach of doing single attacks with multi-attack weapons to get the model down to the right number of wounds left, before using the buff/special weapon to do the "final blow". This cannot be what was intended.

Or you end up with the enemy player willfully allocating the damage such that you don't get the buff, which is also absurd.

A further refinement came with Gordrakk where I would suggest that whichever of Smasha or Kunning did more damage to the hero would get the buff (not both weapons). Alternatively you could dice it off. The point never arose at Blood and Glory.

Same problem arises with Neferata.

  

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