Bloodbound tips and tricks?

[Obtenebris]

Hey TGA community, I'm here for some advice and/or motivation.

I picked up AoS with a friend when it initially released and we split the starter. He was super gung ho on Stormcasts and I wasn't into them, nor have I typically been a huge Khorne fan for 40k or WFB, but I went with the Bloodbound because why not? They're beautiful models and I eventually fell in love with their fluff and found myself really liking a Khorne army. Anyway, since then I've played very, very rarely. In part due to time constraints and work having a lot of overtime that's left me very tired most days, in part because as much as I love the models...I just don't do well with Bloodbound. I rarely win and rarely have even a chance of competing when my opponent is something like Ogors or a shooty heavy army. I know the game isn't all about winning, and I don't want to win all the time, but losing constantly and feeling like I -must- be doing something wrong makes me not want to play. 

I've tried different things with my Bloodbound. 40 Reavers and a Warshrine. I've tried Blood Warrior heavy lists. I've tried adding in Chaos Warriors for resilience, I've tried adding Daemons and wizards to summon more Daemons(pre and post GHB), I even got a Bloodthirster as a Christmas gift last year and I hate using him because he gets obliterated either after killing a handful of models or before he even gets to do anything. I'm at the point where I -want- to like Bloodbound, I love the fluff, I even made some fluff of my own for my "tribe" of them, but I feel like I'm doing something wrong with them. People talk about how awesome they are, how they stomp with them frequently and the like and I'm sitting here thinking "Why can't I do that every so often?" 

I'm at the point where I'm considering selling all my Bloodbound and investing in Eshin and Skryre Skaven or Slaaneshi Daemons and mortals. Most of my Bloodbound remain unpainted or partially painted due to lack of motivation even after all this time. So I'm here as a final effort to ask the TGA community this: What do you do to make them work? What are combos you've found, Battalions you favor, non-Bloodbound units you think are must-haves or highly recommended? Just general advice and/or motivation to spark me into loving them again.

Thanks for any help you can provide. Also TLDR: Read the last paragraph I guess. I sort of rambled on.

[DamonRafael]

I found that adding some cavalry helps A LOT. people say chaos knights are better than juggernauts, this could be true but I find juggy are way better models personal taste here.

Anyway, I'm playing with a slaughterpriest, a unit or 2 of juggy, wrathmongers against monsters or big heros, and Warriors. I rarely use reavers, but they are pretty strong I would say.

Also, you have to practice on how to use the Bloodsecrator, which is a must have for bloodbound, and Bloodstoker - the last one especially if you play bloodreavers.

Give it a try, proxy maybe so you don't have to spend money for that he at the beginning :-)

But if you can't get it run with your style, then sure you should find something closer to your tastes!

[RuneBrush]

At 1k I run Bloodbound with a unit of Bloodletters.  Generally the times I lose is down to me ignoring the objectives and throwing my models (in a very Khorne manner) at my opponent.  My Bloodthirster never gets run at this points size, I consider him too expensive and a massive single target.

If I had to pick three units, I'd be going for my Bloodsecrator, Wrathmongers and Skullgrinder.  They rarely disappoint providing you get the latter two into combat as quickly as you can.

Against shooting focused armies I do find I generally struggle more.  The allegiance trait that gives you an army wide to hit modifier helps to negate this a bit but we do have a lack of large & fast units to whittle those blobs of 20+ ranged  opponents.  Juggers/knights help but you ideally need to be able to wipe out those large units in one - which is more of a struggle with these premium priced units we have available.  I have heard of some people using warhounds or flesh hounds to great effect against a ranged army.

Though I've not played ogres, I'd say that Wrathmongers and Skullreapers are your friends - Bloodletters could help too if fielded in large units as they have the potential to dish out quite a few mortal wounds if you roll well (plus give your army a bit of rend).

[Louzi]

The core of every khorne army is:

10 Blood Warriors

10 Blood Warriors

5 Wrathmongers

2 Bloodsecrators

1 Bloodstoker

What you are adding next is up to you. You need another battleline unit. Decide between 20 Blood Reavers (good and only 120 points) or 30 Bloodletters (300 points, but big impact). I would also add a Bloodthirster or Skarbrand. Instead you could add 10 Skullreapers. Next add some heroes. I prefer Aspiring Deathbringer as General, but the Mighty Lords are good , too. Sayl is als a very good option.

Most important are the core units above.

[Maddok]

Are you playing objective games or just kill? If you're going up against gun lines and it's just a straight kill game there is little point in playing. I'd press for scenarios.

Against ogors, it's best to play defensively  (yeah I know that sounds insane). Basically blood warriors in front as a catchers mitt with your two banners planted and wrathmongers behind them. Then when the big nasty unit his you, you deal a few mortal wounds through the fists, then when your models either get to strike normally, or with their "last respite" ability they hit with 5 attacks a piece. That will shred all but the toughest units and monsters.

 

On your bloodthirster- which one did you build? they each have their strengths and weaknesses, but none of them are particularly tough so they're much more delicate to use than you would expect. The wrath of khorne is a great gun platform, and it's command ability is fantastic, but requires a demon unit for it to make its impact. It tends to be best vs small units or lone heros. The insensate rage is very tough since it's so bursty. It can go off like a nuclear weapon or miss all of its attacks. With this one, hold it back as a counter punch for turn 2 or 3. Make sure both banners are planted and if you can get wrathmongers near it do that too. The artifact for +1 attack is great on this guy too. The name of the game is buffing him really. Since his attacks are SO high quality, each attack you add is huge. The +1 to hit buff from the command trait is also good. Stack that all up and throw him into the densest set of units you can find. He'll likely smoke the main unit he hits while hopefully dealing 3-6 mortal wounds so all of those who surround him. After that he is about dead but hopefully that made his 280. I'm not super familiar with the thirster of unfettered fury but from what I can see its best as a gun platform.

[Nico]

Quote

I found that adding some cavalry helps A LOT. people say chaos knights are better than juggernauts, this could be true but I find juggy are way better models  personal taste here.

They are both awful. One hits like a pillow and its only saving grace is the ward save, the other hits like two pillows tied together, but the shield is useless. Frankly a big unit of Khorgoraths is better than either. Not losing a model until you take 8 wounds is useful.

Almost all Cavalry are weak for their cost in AoS: Pigs, Varanguard spring to mind as poor choices.

Hexwraiths, Dracoth Knights, Spider Riders and obviously Necropolis Knights are some exceptional cavalry.

Quote

Against ogors, it's best to play defensively  (yeah I know that sounds insane). Basically blood warriors in front as a catchers mitt with your two banners planted and wrathmongers behind them. Then when the big nasty unit his you, you deal a few mortal wounds through the fists, then when your models either get to strike normally, or with their "last respite" ability they hit with 5 attacks a piece. That will shred all but the toughest units and monsters.

This is Bloodbound 101. I agree.

It's always interesting trying to work out whether to take the first turn against Bloodbound - try to either take out one or both of the Bloodsecrators/battleshock off the two largest units on the table or to let them waddle forward but get their Battleshock Immunity up. Watch the Russ Veal vs Les Martin game on Facehammer TV. What you don't want to do is send in Multiple Small Units of expensive 4+ save melee units after they have gotten the Banners up.

Where Bloodbound really struggle is against 2+ rerollable saves; -1 or -2 to hit buffs; scenery that funnels them so they block each other; and the like. Blood Warriors not having a rend option doesn't help.

 

[RuneBrush]

51 minutes ago, Nico said:

What you don't want to do is send in Multiple Small Units of expensive 4+ save melee units after they have gotten the Banners up.

Just occurred to me that I think I play my army a little too "I want to smash your face in"

[Azlak the Damned]

I play with the starter set:

Mighty Lord of Khorne 140
Bloodsecrator 120
Bloodstoker 80
Blood Warriors x5 100
Bloodreavers x20 120
Khorgorath x1 80
Goreblade warband 60

Plus:

Slaughterpriest1 100
Blood Warriors x10 200

1,000 points (correct me if I'm wrong, don't have the GH with me atm)

I've had about a 50/50 win rate mainly vs daemons. I have learnt a lot on how not to play them and for me the best way is to keep them all within at least 36-48" of each other. Can be difficult with objective based play but allowing a unit of 5 Blood Warriors to wander off and defend an objective is do-able.

A lot of people don't like the Khorgorath but I have found him a solid part of my army. Honestly he doesn't deal out as much damage as he looks like he could but that +1 Wound heal if he wounds an opponent is a life saver. Almost every game I've had he holds up 1 to 2 units by himself for several turns. I've just invested in 2 more of these as I want to see what a unit of 3 could do.

Also try the Exalted Deathbringer, he hands out damage like it's going out of fashion.

Finally I'll just say, I've always played with an army that is pure Bloodbound, never added in Daemons or Slaves to Darkness and it seems to be OK so far. I am enjoying the games even though I lose some.

Hope this helps a bit.

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[Obtenebris]

16 hours ago, Maddok said:

Are you playing objective games or just kill? If you're going up against gun lines and it's just a straight kill game there is little point in playing. I'd press for scenarios.

Against ogors, it's best to play defensively  (yeah I know that sounds insane). Basically blood warriors in front as a catchers mitt with your two banners planted and wrathmongers behind them. Then when the big nasty unit his you, you deal a few mortal wounds through the fists, then when your models either get to strike normally, or with their "last respite" ability they hit with 5 attacks a piece. That will shred all but the toughest units and monsters.

 

On your bloodthirster- which one did you build? they each have their strengths and weaknesses, but none of them are particularly tough so they're much more delicate to use than you would expect. The wrath of khorne is a great gun platform, and it's command ability is fantastic, but requires a demon unit for it to make its impact. It tends to be best vs small units or lone heros. The insensate rage is very tough since it's so bursty. It can go off like a nuclear weapon or miss all of its attacks. With this one, hold it back as a counter punch for turn 2 or 3. Make sure both banners are planted and if you can get wrathmongers near it do that too. The artifact for +1 attack is great on this guy too. The name of the game is buffing him really. Since his attacks are SO high quality, each attack you add is huge. The +1 to hit buff from the command trait is also good. Stack that all up and throw him into the densest set of units you can find. He'll likely smoke the main unit he hits while hopefully dealing 3-6 mortal wounds so all of those who surround him. After that he is about dead but hopefully that made his 280. I'm not super familiar with the thirster of unfettered fury but from what I can see its best as a gun platform.

I'm playing objective games mostly. When the game was still new and all we had was the first big book, we did the narrative scenarios. I've run stuff out of other books and also homemade scenarios and even a couple of 40k-style missions converted to AoS by a friend and I(one of my rare victories). I find AoS is very boring if all you're doing is "Lets meet in the middle and smash together."

As for my Bloodthirster, I built the Wrath of Khorne one since he seemed like a good melee monster but also has some nice short range attacks that if they work, can really mess up the unfortunate target.

 

Also thanks everyone for the replies, I do appreciate the help and apologize for not replying sooner. I've been mulling some ideas around and also getting advice outside of these forums. Seems like at the moment one thing I MUST invest in is the models for a Dark Feast Battalion. All I need for that is 3 20 man Reaver units, because the 40 I currently have are all starter set guys, so they do not possess the -1 Rend that is key to making them better. Other Battalions I'm considering are Skulltake, Bloodstorm, Brass Stampede(I'm very iffy on this one, but I do love those Skullcrusher models), and Red Headsmen. Not getting all of them, of course, but trying to get Dark Feast and one or two others to make a 2k list and then collect others over time and try them out etc. As for Bloodletters, I've gotten mixed things on this. Some of you and some others elsewhere have been very adamant that a single 30 Bloodletter unit is a must or at least highly recommended. Others say sure it's good, but take more Bloodbound instead. And yet more then say no, the Bloodletters are not worth it. I've also been told from multiple sources to pick up Sayl the Faithless, who I had been looking at before making this post anyway. I'm also considering a Sorcerer Lord on foot as his Daemonic Power spell(I think that's the name) could be very good on the right unit.

[Obtenebris]

Okay sample list for your judgment, TGA fellows.

Dark Feast
3x 20 Bloodreavers w/Meatripper Axes

Slaughterpriest w/Hackblade and Wrath-hammer

Bloodstoker

 

Bloodstorm

3x 5 Wrathmongers

 

Aspiring Deathbringer(unsure which of the two, army general)
Bloodsecrator
Skullgrinder
Exalted Deathbringer w/Impaling Spear
A second Slaughterpriest w/Hackblade and Wrath-hammer
Sayl the Faithless

1940 pts

And in case you're wondering, since I know people recommend Sayl for tossing a 30 man unit of Bloodletters forward rapidly, I took Sayl in the event one of my heroes needs to get somewhere fast to help reinforce a line, grant an ability, or even escape. I also figure he could be an emergency "******, my Bloodsecrator won't be close enough next turn" fly move. The rest of the strategy should be apparent. Bloodreavers glass cannon the hell out of things since they'll be swinging +1 from Totem, +1 from Bloodsecrator ability, +1 from Dark Feast Slaughterpriest, +1 from Aspiring Deathbringer(at least one unit will get this anyway), +1 from Wrathmongers for 5-6 attacks a piece depending on how close they are to the Aspiring Deathbringer. The Skullgrinder serves as a hero and/or monster slayer, which would further buff attacks if he succeeds. The Exalted DB is also to assist in hero and monster slaying, plus his Blooded Lieutenant is nice imo. The second Slaughterpriest is so I have some "shooting" in the form of Blood Boil from the two of them plus Blood Bind can allow me to lure certain targets out of cover or just within charge range of some of my units. The Bloodreavers are busy hacking things to pieces with my heroes bubble wrapped within them. Maybe have some Wrathmongers or even one Bloodreaver unit assist in capping objectives. 

What do you think? Does this have merit? Am I showing my noobness? I appreciate any help or constructive criticism provided.
 

[kozokus]

Why take the Wrathhammer priest over the two handedaxe priest? One of them can dispell only one spell and the other an infinite.

[Hobby Heresy]

Maybe I am a bit noobish to AoS as I have just really dived in, but does the above list not contain one too many leaders for a 2000pt force? I count 7 but surely you are only allowed 6 in 2k?

I was under the impression the battalions just add extra rules to units but you are still constrained to the restrictions of units/leaders/warmachines etc of the GHB?

 

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Like I said I am new to this whole thing as I solely play 40k atm.

[RuneBrush]

10 minutes ago, Hobby Heresy said:

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Like I said I am new to this whole thing as I solely play 40k atm.

You're (almost) completely correct - it's actually 8 in that list   I think what's happened is the two characters in the battalion haven't been counted in the limit - unlike 40k where your formation is "extra" and can break the FoC, in AoS it's the army as a whole that has to comply (though you can break that using summoning).

[Azlak the Damned]

You are correct. Max of 6 heroes for a 2k game

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[Obtenebris]

On 11/30/2016 at 3:35 AM, kozokus said:

Why take the Wrathhammer priest over the two handedaxe priest? One of them can dispell only one spell and the other an infinite.

I actually didn't notice that. I'll have to contact GW about that because I'm going to guess that is an error and they're both only supposed to be able to do it once per turn. Also I prefer the Wrath-hammer one since he can hide inside a unit but then still strike from 3" away with the hammer, allowing him to try for the +1 to prayers next turn with a low risk of being hit back.

21 minutes ago, Hobby Heresy said:

Maybe I am a bit noobish to AoS as I have just really dived in, but does the above list not contain one too many leaders for a 2000pt force? I count 7 but surely you are only allowed 6 in 2k?

I was under the impression the battalions just add extra rules to units but you are still constrained to the restrictions of units/leaders/warmachines etc of the GHB?

 

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Like I said I am new to this whole thing as I solely play 40k atm.

You and the others are right! And this is why making lists when tired is a bad idea. However this means I have a bunch more points to play with. Maybe I'll add in a Warshrine or Blood Warriors or something. I'll have to work it out at home. Thanks for catching it!

[Hobby Heresy]

1 hour ago, Obtenebris said:

You and the others are right! And this is why making lists when tired is a bad idea. However this means I have a bunch more points to play with. Maybe I'll add in a Warshrine or Blood Warriors or something. I'll have to work it out at home. Thanks for catching it!

Glad I was able to help. I'm still getting used to the whole ruleset of AoS as i'm used to 40k currently.

[kozokus]

17 hours ago, Obtenebris said:

I actually didn't notice that. I'll have to contact GW about that because I'm going to guess that is an error and they're both only supposed to be able to do it once per turn. Also I prefer the Wrath-hammer one since he can hide inside a unit but then still strike from 3" away with the hammer, allowing him to try for the +1 to prayers next turn with a low risk of being hit back.

That is a very good reason.

I suspect that they are ok to change warscrolls as long as they are not printed on any book, like the 2H priest vs the dual priest.

They changed the Veritant very quickly too, but won't change the lord of khorne and so on.

The only thing they changed that was printed was the Terrorghist who was extremely brutal with the 6dice banshee scream in the FEC book.

[Prandtl]

Don't want to derail the conversation, but what is so great about Blood Warriors? The few games I have use them, they were a bit underwhelming. No rend and 3+/4+ with 2 attacks each is nothing to write home about. I guess I need more testing..?

[Obtenebris]

They're never very resilient, but give them the double hand weapons and the champion with the goreglaive. Two Bloodsecrators and/or an Aspiring Deathbringer as your general, and some Wrathmongers nearby and suddenly you have each guy with 6 attacks.

[Arkiham]

12 if you go first and then one dies.

 

You can typically get them up to at least 3/4 attacks with no real effort.

If you have a unit of 10 that's 4/5 attacks on the unit champion who should have the goreglaive, 

The aspiring deathbringer is a handy general but too squishy, 

So if you attack first with them,  an then one or two die in close combat, that's 6/8 or 8/10 attacks on unit champion. each.

 

[kozokus]

On 02/12/2016 at 6:39 PM, Prandtl said:

Don't want to derail the conversation, but what is so great about Blood Warriors? The few games I have use them, they were a bit underwhelming. No rend and 3+/4+ with 2 attacks each is nothing to write home about. I guess I need more testing..?

They are cheap for what they do.  They are more balanced than Bloodreavers with the 4+ save and still get nice bonus attacks for beeing 5 per 100 points. They have atrocious rules : the one that makes them attack on death adds a lot. The fists seems meh on the paper but can quickly end in 3 additionnal mortal wounds on each combat, which helps a lot. The trap is to take them by 5 or 15. It is 10 or 20 or nothing.

[Arkiham]

The goreglaive is what gets the damage, if you go two hand weapons the entire unit,  the goreglaive included can reroll 1s to hit. I think...I'm sure I read this somewhere.

Until he is the last guy in the unit.

[Prandtl]

Ok, I can see the Goreglaive doing some work, that might have been my mistake, I only have 3 starter set worth of Bloodbound, so no goreglaive. I'll have to kitbash one. I suppose that is also were Kozokus recommandation comes in, take them in 10 or 20 to maximise the goreglaive, interesting, will have to try it. Thanks for the explanation.

[Obtenebris]

So do you guys think it's better to arm Blood Warriors with the double axes or with the Gorefists? Most of the guys in my area seem to think double axe is the way to go for the re-roll of 1s

[Prandtl]

The way I read the Gorefist rule, you only need one model with it in the unit to get the special rule, not sure if I read this right though.

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