Bloodthirster or skarbrand ?

[Darthbeerder]

Hey guys, just looking for some advice on whether to go with a bloodthirster(and if so what variation) or skarbrand . my finacee wants to get me something hefty for christmas. existing army is a mix of bloodbound , khorne demons and slaves to darkness 

[Arkiham]

Depends how you want to use it, what your army consists of etc.

 

Typically you'll want the wrath of khorne or Skarbrand

[Maddok]

In my opinion the Wrath of Khorne is the best call- especially if you commonly field demons. His command ability is great, he has some solid ranged attacks, and its strong in combat. Skarbrand is great, but difficult to use well as he becomes a magnet for fire

[Valamanathrax]

I have and play skarbrand so I'm biased.. lol. Skarbrand is great to field. The sheer terror he instills in your opponent is awesome.  But he is very limited in his role. But very fun to play. If you go with a blood thirster deffinately go with the wrath of khorne.  

[yarrickson]

If you are adding one of them to your force then a Bloodthirster would be my recommendation. Specifically, as already said, the fantastic Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster. Great command ability (since you already have other Khorne daemons?) Solid ranged attacks and decent melee. 

Skarbrand hits like almost nothing else in the game. But he wants to be alongside the wrath of khorne (and a bloodstoker, bloodsecrator, sayl, something for mystic shield, etc etc) or other words, he needs more work/support. 

I'm currently running Skarbrand, Wrath of Khorne and 2 Bloodthirsters of Insensate Rage and having a ball. So much fun. 

[Darthbeerder]

Thanks for the replies , I have some khorne demons and im probably going to pick up the start collecting khorne demons asap , looks like the bloodthirster is the way to go ! 

[Taketheskull]

I have fixed your original post for you...

On 11/28/2016 at 8:32 AM, Darthbeerder said:

Hey guys, just looking for some advice on whether to go with a bloodthirster(and if so what variation) or skarbrand FIRST . my finacee wants to get me something hefty for christmas. existing army is a mix of bloodbound , khorne demons and slaves to darkness 

And the answer is Skarbrand, obviously ?  

[BrAiKo]

1 hour ago, Taketheskull said:

I have fixed your original post for you...

Exactly, the question you really need to be asking is "Why not both?"

Also if/when getting the bloodthirster, you also need to ask yourself 'how big of a khorne axe do I want him to have?'.  If the answer is 'ain't no axe big enough' then may I suggest the Bloodthirster of (insensate) Rage.

[redbeardboss]

blood thirster with the big axe is awesome if ya give him the +1 attack to one of his melee weapons item

[Tasman]

Skarbrand/Sayl combo is a brutal combo that, if you put Sayl on a vortex, will let you get your enraged maniac into combat almost anywhere on the table. Chop, chop. Me likee.

[Nico]

Quote

Skarbrand/Sayl combo is a brutal combo that, if you put Sayl on a vortex, will let you get your enraged maniac into combat almost anywhere on the table. Chop, chop. Me likee.

Just in case you're not clear on it, the Balewind Vortex doesn't double the 18 inch move to 36 inches. It only doubles the range of the spell itself to 20 inches. While this would give you a little more flexibility to hide Sayl in a corner (until turn 2 when Skarbrand is (a) Incandescent or (b) very likely dead; I doubt whether you want to risk the cast roll of a 7 to get up on the Balewind (unless you're going to use the 3 D6 cast on that) and spank the 100 points (unless you can get rid of the Balewind later and bring it back on another Wizard like a Daemonsmith or a Gaunt Summoner with cute Familiars. 

[Broxus]

While in some points systems Skarbrand was a good value in the GHB he is terrible for his points.  I just can't see any way to make him ever get back his points.  There will be a few times he is amazing but the majority of games he will be underwhelming.  There are just so many ways to counter him.  I usually feed him a unit of nurglings and watch him struggle.  I can think of many better ways to spend your points in a Khorne army to make it more competitive. 

[yarrickson]

I find Skarbrand is almost always worth his points. Either he flys into the target of my choice (sayl/wrath/stoker, lord of war) and kills it, then takes a whole turn for the enemy to deal with, allowing the rest of my army free reign. Or he stands at the back near an objective and a bloodsecrator and dares anyone to come at him. 

As for feeding him nurglings, just how? Why is he fighting them, and how many bases of them do you have that the fights a struggle? If he's angry he should be killing at least 6 or 7 a turn if he's buffed?

[Herald of Chaos]

1 hour ago, Broxus said:

While in some points systems Skarbrand was a good value in the GHB he is terrible for his points.  I just can't see any way to make him ever get back his points.  There will be a few times he is amazing but the majority of games he will be underwhelming.  There are just so many ways to counter him.  I usually feed him a unit of nurglings and watch him struggle.  I can think of many better ways to spend your points in a Khorne army to make it more competitive. 

As much as I love Skarbrand I have to agree here, he is far too easy to counter for the amount of points that you have to fork out for him.  Occasionally you will get him in on a prime target against someone who has either messed up their placement or who is too inexperienced to stop it from happening and Skarbrand will cause so much destruction that it will always stay in everyones mind as that monster and annihalates all that stands before it.  Most of the time though due to his slow speed and reputation you can expect him to get bogged down in chaff for most of the game or just killed off quickly which isn't hard to do to him.

You can get around this problem a bit with Sayl, but then your not really running a proper Khorne army anymore are you .  I really think Skarbrands success comes down a lot to how experienced your opponents are with dealing with threats like him, you might catch some people off guard a few times, but once they wise up to it something as slow but destructive as Skarbrand will never get the chance to live up to their potential, no matter how buffed you might have him.

As for the regular bloodthirsters, they are pretty and fun to paint, as for how they go on the table, I don't think my experience should be taken into account as mine has always performed so abysmally that my bloodthirsters name (yes, he has a name, its Geoffrey) has been used by people I play against as a verb for a particularly underwhelming combat.

In conclusion to what I think has just become a ramble at this point, I really don't think that either are particularly competitive choices, however both are very fun choices and for games when being competitive is less important I have never regretted taking either. 

 

[Darthbeerder]

Well guys thanks for the advice but as it turns out the little lady decided that she wasnt paying "all that money for one model " plys side is im pretty sure she got me both the khorne bloodbound start collecting box and the deamons of khorne one so I will just need to wait until after christmas to treat myself to the bloodthirster !

[Broxus]

I think bloodthristers are great!  They look very scarey and can do some serious damage if left unchecked.   I own both Scarbrand and Bloodthristers.  Between the two the Bloodthrister always performs better for the points especially with the fly ability. 

20 hours ago, yarrickson said:

I find Skarbrand is almost always worth his points. Either he flys into the target of my choice (sayl/wrath/stoker, lord of war) and kills it, then takes a whole turn for the enemy to deal with, allowing the rest of my army free reign. Or he stands at the back near an objective and a bloodsecrator and dares anyone to come at him. 

As for feeding him nurglings, just how? Why is he fighting them, and how many bases of them do you have that the fights a struggle? If he's angry he should be killing at least 6 or 7 a turn if he's buffed?

Yep feeding him nurglings is the best way to stop him.  They do very little damage and he must kill everyone of them since they self heal or be stuck in combat.  I usually send in units of 3-6.  Scarbrand becomes only scarey in two circumstances.  1) When he takes a lot of damage.  2) When he wasn't in combat the previous turn.  Sending in a cheap unit of nurglings prevents both of these scenarios.  Since Scarbrand can't fly and has an 8" move he is fairly easy to predict and block.  At 400pts he just isn't likely to do enough to regain his points value back.

[yarrickson]

Skarbrand comes with an 8" move and no fly basic. But once you give him an 18" move and fly from Sayl. Run and charge in the same turn, both at +1 from the Wrath of Khorne, +3 run and charge from the bloodstoker, +1 attack on both his weapons from a nearby bloodsecrator, lord of war from your general, maybe Skarbrand rolls unpredictable destruction, maybe Skarbrand takes a mystical or damned scenery roll etc etc then he is the proverbial scud missile/wrecking ball. There are so many khorne/daemon/chaos buffs that you are pretty much going to have lying around that there's really no reason for Skarbrand to be fighting nurglings. 

Of course the nurgle player could also buff his nurglings, but really, nurglings? 

[Broxus]

On 12/11/2016 at 2:00 PM, yarrickson said:

Skarbrand comes with an 8" move and no fly basic. But once you give him an 18" move and fly from Sayl. Run and charge in the same turn, both at +1 from the Wrath of Khorne, +3 run and charge from the bloodstoker, +1 attack on both his weapons from a nearby bloodsecrator, lord of war from your general, maybe Skarbrand rolls unpredictable destruction, maybe Skarbrand takes a mystical or damned scenery roll etc etc then he is the proverbial scud missile/wrecking ball. There are so many khorne/daemon/chaos buffs that you are pretty much going to have lying around that there's really no reason for Skarbrand to be fighting nurglings. 

Of course the nurgle player could also buff his nurglings, but really, nurglings? 

Sure he is harder to work around if my opponent used 1200 points of models to buff Skarbrand as in your example.  I guess I could feed him a good meaty unit of plaguebearers that are also conducting a screening role (along with my nurglings) to prevent him from contacting my good units.  It really just is not that hard to do if you have experience playing against him.  So long as he is prevented from charging heroes, stays in combat and doesn't take much damage. he doesn't do that much damage.  I would love it if on turn one Skarbrand charged across the table into my battlelines.  He would cease to be alive the next turn and would do minimal damage.  

[Nico]

Let's put it this way. Skarbrand or Tomb King Cannonballs (aka Chariots/Necropolis Knights in unit sizes decided to taste) lobbed in turn by turn with a minimum effective charge range of 28 inches. Full credit to Dan Ford for pioneering this back in the day.

Buff with combination of Settra, 1+ Tomb Kings or Royal Warsphinx and/or Liche Priest and Mr Whippy and Necbromancer (all of which can buff a lot of the rest of army and all of which are effectively fire and forget buffs unlike the Bloodsecrator (which doesn't work when Skarbrand is alpha striking something 26 inches away). Settra does have to waddle or run forward to keep the Knights in his 18 inch bubble, but this is rarely a problem.

It's not even close:

• Damage output per point invested is far better for TK.
• Damage output is far more reliable - as more dice are being rolled.
• Skarbrand's damage output is much lower against single wound targets compared to 8 wound heroes.
• Effective charge range (it's 28 minimum on a 2+ dice roll for Snake Surfers - you don't even want to know how long it is for Chariots) is far higher than Sayl plus a charge (average 25). If there's something within charge range of Skarbrand it's an enemy mistake or it's a trap.
• The list builds naturally around the TK cannonball strategy. Obvious extensions include the Necrosphinx, Catapults, Tomb Scorpions, Zombros for Battleline. The Skarbrand bomb is more disruptive of the list overall.
• The 2 inch range on both of the Necropolis Knights' weapons plus the potential charge followed by double pile in means that they can be a bunker buster bomb as well - drop 55 wounds on 4+ save chaff (after the saves have been done - it has been a while since I ran the maths and it's weaker than it was under SCGT), then drop another 55 wounds on 4+ save valuable target up to 5 inches behind the front of the chaff wall. Game over! Skarbrand is still sitting there at the front of a pile of dead chaff, hoping that Khorne (or Kairos if you really want to break theme) gifts him a double turn....
• While Necropolis Knights are susceptible to pew pew (5+ save, 30 wounds), Skarbrand is roughly as bad - 14 wounds and a 4+ save. Tomb Kings can go for the YOLO list comprising a single unit of 12 Necropolis Knights instead of 2 sixes.
• Depending on how many Fanatics there are and exact positioning (are the models on the 12 inch line), a long line of Necropolis Knights can sometimes get around Fanatic blocking (since they will be 3 inches away. As long as one model at the end (furthest from the Fanatics can pile in and get within 3 inches of the line of Grots/etc. then you can get some attacks in on the first activation, then you'll also get your second activation from Vanhels Danse Macabre. Hint, don't set up on the 12 inch line unless you are called Wrathbros - the truest counter to Necropolis Knights - mutually assured destruction. Conversely 20 Moonclan Grots spitting Fanatics at Skarbrand can hold him up for the entire game by touching bases when the Fanatics charge him - even standing just outside 3 inches away from the Grots he can never pile in as he's pinned by the adjacent Fanatics. Apparently some Destruction players have been known on rare occasions to take Fanatics, even if they aren't playing a pure Moonclan Force. 

[Nico]

I'd also query what Skarbrand adds over a Bloodletter Bomb - which is at least (a) an inherent battleline unit; and (b) can score objectives more effectively - e.g. on Border War (Ghoul Patrol) where it shines at scoring 9 points on turn one.

I'm hoping that the new Exalted Bloodthirster (a) has a 3+ save or a Ward save of something that doesn't make it embarrassingly easy to kill; and (b) has some kind of passive buff or passive debuff that makes it viable.

If you're going to take a centrepiece model, I'd recommend either one which is off the scale tough (Dread Maw, Royal Warsphinx, Mourngul, Stonelord, Stompy - my profile pic); or has some cost efficient synergies for the rest of the army (Gordrakk (somewhat overcosted but has a role), Alarielle (amazeballs if used well), a Celestial Hurricanum, a Magmadroth with Runesmiter). Sadly for Chaos there aren't any that fit the bill (Thanqless is overcosted for a 4+ save, Archaon - see the other thread..., where's the rend -2? He does have synergies but they aren't cost efficient).

The Verminlord Deceiver is the best beatstick monster for its cost in the Chaos army - by a mile - it's also not a named character so it can be further buffed. Just never charge it into a Mourngul....  

[yarrickson]

There's no real reason not to have Skarbrand and a blood letter bomb. Or Skarbrand and an insensate rage Bloodthirster. Skarbrand doesn't want to be fighting/flying in turn one anyway as he only powers up for turn 2. So turn 1, depending on mission/enemy you get to bomb blood letters or the big axe fella as required. Turn 2 is Skarbrand's go. (Bonus points for having a Blood host of Khorne so that Skarbrand gets to smack things in the hero phase too, that's guaranteed hilarity)

I'm also waiting with impatience now to see if FW give the exalted Bloodthirster great rules (see Mourngul) or pish rules (see squig gobba). I'm very hopeful though, and he is a great centerpiece model. 

Funny you mention the bloody snakes Nico as I've always found them to be Skarbrand's nemesis in game, Skarbrand can fly in, chop up 4-5 in one go, but then can do nothing but watch as banner plus herald banner etc raises the snakes all back up. The snakes are really cheap for how annoying they are to put down and the damage they can put out. They're the main reason I think TK are the power in the death faction just now. 

Only point I'd make regarding distance is that Sayl plus Wrath of Khorne plus Bloodstoker gives Skarbrand (or insensate rage, or a blob of blood letters) a minimum threat of 29" and a maximum of 44". With numbers like that as I say, there's really no reason to be fighting nurglings. (Oh and even if he does, he could always retreat and bide his time). 

Like a lot of AOS, success is about catching an opponent out, or maximising on their mistake. Yeah there'll be games where your facing four treeman ancients behind a bubblewrap of dryads and you are gonna want nothing to do with it, or you'll be playing deep striking Stormcast and the focus will be on how well you can bubblewrap and defend your big hitters, but that's the fun