TGA Official Generals Handbook 2 feedback

[ZealousJ]

1 hour ago, daedalus81 said:

It stops at a consistent application that affects everyone equally.  Planning your unit positioning to get extra attacks out of 32s is a tactical move within the universal expectations of fairness - not a basing standard.

Tournaments will go this way.  Everyone else is free to do whatever they want guided by the communities they play in.  You will not get a consensus for freedom of basing here, ever.

Some models on rounds and some models on squares will not be consistent.  Ever.  
And for the very same reasons measuring from models instead of bases will not be consistent.  Ever.

This is the problem but in many ways GW have dodged it by designing a game overtly intend to to be flexible and simple.

If the designers wanted the game to be inherently competitive they'd have to insist on more reliable measuring/LOS rules and standardised basing. If they did they'd clearly alienate a large portion of the fan base.

As a returning player who left after getting sick of GWs cynical ' buy this or lose' escalation tactics i love the balance AoS has struck. It's simple and considered enough to be relatively balanced and yet it's insistence on remaining appealing to casual gamers makes it remain a friendly prospect.

[daedalus81]

It's not so much that it is competitive.  You can find people playing base to base and rounds outside of tournaments, because as mentioned - consistency is key.

If you had two warscrolls for the same unit, which would you use?  Which would you suggest others use?

Edited April 14, 2017 by daedalus81

[Quinn of Khorne]

I never really see the issue with rebasing your models. I've done it many times (in 40k, in WHFB, and other systems) and it has always ended up with better looking models and not a great deal of time invested (compared to painting the actual models).
If you play any tournaments then I think your models should be on rounds. If you just play open or narrative and have squares..then whatever. This whole argument that 'I'm not changing my bases period'..not sure the rational part of it. It is work for sure, but it isn't that much work, or much money compared to what you have invested in the miniatures. I always look at it as an opportunity to make my army look that much better.


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[Jamopower]

There is still one Major reason why they won't go there. Many models still come packaged wirh square bases and until they get all of them phased out and reboxed, it's hard to see them pushing an universal rule, which would prevent people gaming with the models straight from the box. Also with units like the Stormcast raptor's, the Base size isn't universal even with the stuff that comes on rounds.

Many torunaments will propably require rounds of fixed diameter, but that's a completely different thing.

[Arkiham]

On 2017-4-13 at 11:32 PM, Auticus said:

Yeah good luck with that base list and trying to force people to rebase their collection.  That'll certainly help build the community when you tell the guys that are considering coming back that they now have to buy a completely new army or destroy their current bases so that they don't have some minute advantage.

I've been thinking about this. 

 

Games workshop doesn't care, you aren't their target audience, I suspect  you don't spend that much anymore 

And if you think they aren't willing to enforce a rule to make rounds and ovals standard then you must have forgot about end times and aos launch and what happened to the community.

Games workshop are more than willing to shed "dead weight" (harsh term but most appropriate word I could think of) to improve sales, and there's a risk,  chances are you won't buy anymore.

But typically, those people stopped buying seriously ages ago, and aren't as "valuable customers" as that addict who buys every new army going  or those kids who turn up every sat with pocket money to buy another model, and it's new customers who pay the bills, not old hat's who just play with the free rules.

 

Harsh but theres truths in it 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Arkiham

[kaintxu]

The most anoying thing about rebasing is the multiple rebases in just a couple of years.

SCGT is now enforcing 32mm on daemons. When AoS came out I rebased my over 100 basic infantry daemons into 25mm but if I know want to go to SCGT I need to rebase them in 32mm? They should be paying for them then.

I understand about the rebasing from square to round, but forcing another rebase in less than 2 years is ridiculous.

[Ratamaplata]

31 minutes ago, kaintxu said:

The most anoying thing about rebasing is the multiple rebases in just a couple of years.

SCGT is now enforcing 32mm on daemons. When AoS came out I rebased my over 100 basic infantry daemons into 25mm but if I know want to go to SCGT I need to rebase them in 32mm? They should be paying for them then.

I understand about the rebasing from square to round, but forcing another rebase in less than 2 years is ridiculous.

Just get 32mm mdf circles and blutac them on for tournies?

[wayniac]

I think in general the issue is there's no actual guideline from GW, and "just do what you want" is a cop out in a game that requires at minimum 2 people who may have different ideas.  For example, I have zero problem with removing trees from a woods and placing models there, because IMHO that's why they are removable; the layout of the woods is what matters.  Bases are another matter though.  I prefer rounds, but I know enough people who have square that I'm not going to push the issue, since "bases don't matter in AOS" as I repeatedly get as an argument.

The main thing I want to see from GHB 2 is easing up on Battleline restrictions, because right now i hate them with a passion because they are decidedly a "core tax" and hurt thematic armies a lot.  I don't expect it to happen, though.

Edited April 17, 2017 by wayniac

[shinros]

2 hours ago, kaintxu said:

The most anoying thing about rebasing is the multiple rebases in just a couple of years.

SCGT is now enforcing 32mm on daemons. When AoS came out I rebased my over 100 basic infantry daemons into 25mm but if I know want to go to SCGT I need to rebase them in 32mm? They should be paying for them then.

I understand about the rebasing from square to round, but forcing another rebase in less than 2 years is ridiculous.

I don't understand this when basic daemon troops come with 25 MM in the box even the repackaged ones if I recall correctly anyway I am casual player I just hang out at my store.

[daedalus81]

They are currently packaged with 32mm.

[kaintxu]

2 hours ago, shinros said:

I don't understand this when basic daemon troops come with 25 MM in the box even the repackaged ones if I recall correctly anyway I am casual player I just hang out at my store.

 

I have already said this, the new bloodletter come in 32's since the BoK book, same for pink horrors since the DoT book

 

[shinros]

28 minutes ago, kaintxu said:

I have already said this, the new bloodletter come in 32's since the BoK book, same for pink horrors since the DoT book

 

I see so I imagine when they get to daemonettes they will be put on 32's. Still I don't see a reason to enforce such a thing.

[Furious]

Huh that is weird - the models don't seem like they're too big for 25s.

Here's how it is, though - I think it's safe to say that most people and tournaments doing matched play measure from base? There's no official agreed upon base size for units (except when they come with a specific base size) but there is a general idea that they should go on an equivalent size to their squares - 25mm rounds for 20 mm squares, 32mm rounds for 25mm squares etc. I'm fine with that. If tournaments don't have specific guidelines they usually have a "don't game the system" clause, meaning don't be a ****** and put your larger infantry on smaller bases. In the context of the rules the tournament is going by, it's cheating. I'd be annoyed to see a unit of 20 Ard Boyz on 25mm rounds. They'd be getting a shitload of attacks in.

The new daemon bases are tricky - I believe they were on 25mm squares? Seems unfair to force players to rebase again, but if you want to play the tournament scene you've got to play by the tournament rules - TOs don't owe players anything. It's a private event, and if it's competitive they want to make sure that it's fair for all players.

It sucks, but if I were a new Khorne player using the 32s I got in the box and went up against an older Khorne player using 25s, I'd be annoyed at least.

[Captain Marius]

10 minutes ago, shinros said:

I see so I imagine when they get to daemonettes they will be put on 32's. Still I don't see a reason to enforce such a thing.

I wouldn't bet on such consistency! Im currently rebasing my old dwarfs and they seem to all be on 25s while fyreslayers are on 32s (kharadrons have both). Ive not quote figured out the best solution yet...

Also Flesh Hounds - theyre supposed to be on 50mm rounds but that looks ridiculously huge to me so mine will go on 60mm ovals. Would this be acceptable? They were previously sold on 40mm rounds or 50mm cav bases which are even smaller!

Personally i hope the GHB leaves base to base as a house rule and leaves it to TOs to deal with the minutiae of base size advantages and what have you!

[Jamopower]

I've been playing my daemons "fair", so even if they are on 25mm, I don't strike over the whole diameter. Same with 25 mm squares when playing with my lizardmen, which have scenic bases hand made from putty, that I'm not changing no matter what.

Edit. But I'm also not a big tournament gamer. Not that we eould even have any tournaments for AoS In Finland either

Edited April 17, 2017 by Jamopower

[daedalus81]

2 hours ago, Auticus said:

GW does it because it gives you a lot of basing room and you can make cool bases with bigger bases.  The models themselves fit fine on 25mm.

They certainly don't *need* to be on 32s.

Though horrors are a nightmare to keep upright on 25s (penny notwithstanding).

 

[RuneBrush]

20 hours ago, shinros said:

I don't understand this when basic daemon troops come with 25 MM in the box even the repackaged ones if I recall correctly anyway I am casual player I just hang out at my store.

The confusion came about when GW first did all of the daemons in plastic for WH and 40k.  They put in squares for WH and 25mm rounds for 40k.  Since then they've released them in Start Collecting boxes with 32mm's (though the regular boxes were still being sold with 25's at one point)  That said on the recent made to order Diaz Daemonettes they sent out 25mm rounds, so there's an argument that Daemonettes should still be on 25's

17 hours ago, Auticus said:

GW does it because it gives you a lot of basing room and you can make cool bases with bigger bases.  The models themselves fit fine on 25mm.

They certainly don't *need* to be on 32s.

Less so with Bloodletters - they're really precarious on 25's and most have a sword pointing outwards which makes them quite unbalanced.  Would agree that Plaguebearers look fine on 25's.

[Sleboda]

What did the Spire of Dawn rebox come with for bases?

[kaintxu]

18 hours ago, Furious said:

Huh that is weird - the models don't seem like they're too big for 25s.

Here's how it is, though - I think it's safe to say that most people and tournaments doing matched play measure from base? There's no official agreed upon base size for units (except when they come with a specific base size) but there is a general idea that they should go on an equivalent size to their squares - 25mm rounds for 20 mm squares, 32mm rounds for 25mm squares etc. I'm fine with that. If tournaments don't have specific guidelines they usually have a "don't game the system" clause, meaning don't be a ****** and put your larger infantry on smaller bases. In the context of the rules the tournament is going by, it's cheating. I'd be annoyed to see a unit of 20 Ard Boyz on 25mm rounds. They'd be getting a shitload of attacks in.

The new daemon bases are tricky - I believe they were on 25mm squares? Seems unfair to force players to rebase again, but if you want to play the tournament scene you've got to play by the tournament rules - TOs don't owe players anything. It's a private event, and if it's competitive they want to make sure that it's fair for all players.

It sucks, but if I were a new Khorne player using the 32s I got in the box and went up against an older Khorne player using 25s, I'd be annoyed at least.

 

I can understand your point about it, but until less than a month ago, bloodletters were provided in 25mm so it is nto like I'm trying to play the system. I already rebased from squared which I understood, but now again?

[Furious]

3 hours ago, kaintxu said:

I can understand your point about it, but until less than a month ago, bloodletters were provided in 25mm so it is nto like I'm trying to play the system. I already rebased from squared which I understood, but now again?

It's totally frustrating to have the rules change, and to have a lot of physical work to go with it. It's also frustrating for competitive players to go up against an opponent with a perceived advantage. It's a ruling that has to be made, but they probably should've waited until next year.

[daedalus81]

40K players have to re-base as well - if they want to be in tournaments anyway.

[staks]

Some consideration for summoning in GH2.  I'm yet to play a game but have been doing quite a lot of reading about the current issues addressing how to allow summoning in matched play.

 

What if the summoned unit disappears if the summoner takes a wound?

AND/OR

What if the summoner cannot move / activate whilst he has a summoned unit on the board?  That would prevent the issue of a lord of change summoning a lord of change summoning a lord of change etc.

[Hawkeye]

Iron jawz ard boys and brutes should be destruction battle line. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Hawkeye

[Gilby]

On 4/18/2017 at 11:54 AM, kaintxu said:

I can understand your point about it, but until less than a month ago, bloodletters were provided in 25mm so it is nto like I'm trying to play the system. I already rebased from squared which I understood, but now again?

I've been buying them with 32mm bases for more than a year. Since around the time the chaos grand alliance book came out, where have you been getting them on 25's? 

[BlooDeck]

10 hours ago, Hawkeye said:

Iron jawz ard boys and brutes should be destruction battle line. 

At the very least ard boys should be.