mmimzie Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 First i speak from no point of power or needs of nerfs or buffs. I think this a poor way to go into games, because if this is the case you may as well go back to the world of no points, where you could just place arbitrary value on things. I simply go by the rules as rewritten you pay. Also, there are plenty of spells that make you pay for not all of what you get. First you have to pay for dryads even though you only get 2d6 of them. meal most cases you wont get really what you pay for, but you still pay for them. Also note this is superior to the seed of rebirth as it gets you out of the situation. If i understand how the seed of rebirth (completely from memory so correct me if i'm wrong) when you go to one wound you get d3 more wounds meaning either the same wound pool continues to apply or at the very least your still in combat and subject to attacks, shooting, etc. As said i don't like interpretations as i can do just interpret things that i want strong or weaker at whim if i have the desire to. Does it make the wing wrose??? but do order players look at thier alliance trait and say "this means i reroll till i get what i want" because it seems as strong as a 6+/5+ invuln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Quote First i speak from no point of power or needs of nerfs or buffs. I think this a poor way to go into games, because if this is the case you may as well go back to the world of no points, where you could just place arbitrary value on thing. Slippery Slope Fallacy amigo. Just because we're debating whether you need to pay points for the RoI, it doesn't mean the entire ruleset is being torched by us filthy heathens who think you shouldn't need to. Quote As said i don't like interpretations as i can do just interpret things that i want strong or weaker at whim if i have the desire to. Welcome to the English language. Like most others, everything is based on the interpretation of the listener as much as the conveyance of the speaker. Quote "this means i reroll till i get what i want" because it seems as strong as a 6+/5+ invuln. Well no, because Rule of One clearly states that to not be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dervinus Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 How has this been played at the big tournaments in the UK recently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tronhammer NZ Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Would the same apply to Skarr Bloodwrath's Slaughterborn rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillofNagash Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 4 hours ago, TerrorPenguin said: unfortunately the GHB introduces the term 'adding to' rather than restoring or replacing . The skeleton warscroll says 'returned slain models' and the courtiers say 'add to' They could really do with using consistent language for this Says right there that you can replace slain models but not create new models for a unit. Model gets killed, gets replaced instantly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 We do have the FAQs: Quote Q: Do the casualties your opponent inflicts on summoned units count against your casualty total? A: Yes. Q: If a unit dies and comes back to life (for example Skarr Bloodwrath), are they still counted as casualties for the purposes of the Glorious Victory rules? A: No, they are not. Kind-of implies that "comes back to life" =/= "summoned". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimnaud Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 39 minutes ago, Tronhammer NZ said: Would the same apply to Skarr Bloodwrath's Slaughterborn rule? Good point. The old FAQ states that units that die and come back to life, like Skarr, are not counted as casualties. If they are not counted as casualties, then you are not setting up a new unit when it is restored, thus should not pay the points again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undead4Life Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Plus there's the whole part of it being on a random D6 table that you are allowed to roll on before each game. If it was intended to be payed for, how does that jive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craptrain Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Simple common sense should dictate that you don't need to pay points. In the absence of common sense, the difference in meaning between "restore" and "replace" should dictate that you don't need to pay points. I'm not sure how anyone can reasonably justify that you should pay points either by wording or by intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorPenguin Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 Apologies if I've riled anyone by posting this, there seems to be a bit of a heated undertone. Not my intent to make anyone upset, just wanted to clarify as it will come up at some point in a tournament or similar! It seems like there are precedents for replacing which would indicate that it's not a summon. I do think GW could be a bit more consistent with their language on this (replace, add to, restore etc.) but do appreciate it is only v1 and hopefully they can sort it in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorPenguin Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 8 hours ago, WillofNagash said: Says right there that you can replace slain models but not create new models for a unit. Model gets killed, gets replaced instantly... Frustratingly though it says 'add to' in that paragraph and they use the word replace in the one before which describes the rules for regular summoning I realise that everyone thinks I'm being a complete pedant at this point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tronhammer NZ Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 But the bearer of the ring is not destroyed. It "transports them from danger and restores some of their power", which illustrates the intent I think. You are not "replacing" the unit - it's the same character. Think of 'replacing units' as referring to bringing on a new unit using the same models. Honestly, no one is going to agree by the looks until an FAQ so add this to the other grey areas that have become the TO's prerogative until then. I won't be running it as requiring Reinforcement Points when players could hold the Skarr Bloodwrath FAQ over my head! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHHaunts Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 17 hours ago, wayniac said: Are people actually arguing this? If it costs points, it will never be seen. like the man said ^ While its clearer in some warscrolls than others. Tyrion for instance suggests that you "Restore" tyrion before he is slain. therefore i would be pretty adimant that i wouldnt pay points. While i would personally think that most abilities of this nature are the same they are worded differently so its a grey area. As far as i know abilites/spells that replace models dont require points though. However as said above. paying points for these skills would effectivly make the ability all but useless. It seems implied that the point cost is inckuded in the model or in the case of the ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlzee Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Seems pretty clear that it doesn't cost points to restore the wearer to the battlefield. It only has D3 wounds, hardly worth having to pay for the points again. Quite obvious the model is not replaced, re-summoned, added to etc. The very same model that was just struck down, is transported and healed D3 wounds... It's not really debatable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naishy Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I hate to say this but this whole thread does nothing but make me sad, it feels like the evil spirits of the warhammer forum and Warseer are making an appearance. Before the generals handbook this would have been down to an agreement with your opponent or the tournament organizer's discretion. I feel the spirit is very much that you don't pay points to have your beaten bloody character re-appear for a second round. In the absence of a GW FAQ let your opponents/TOs make their decision and then either applaud them or be steely eye'd in your disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanatos Ares Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 As others have said it's not even debatable imho. If I was playing a game (tourney or no) and my opponent/TO said I needed to pay points for it I would politely pack away my army and concede the game.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorPenguin Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Naishy said: I hate to say this but this whole thread does nothing but make me sad, it feels like the evil spirits of the warhammer forum and Warseer are making an appearance. Before the generals handbook this would have been down to an agreement with your opponent or the tournament organizer's discretion. I feel the spirit is very much that you don't pay points to have your beaten bloody character re-appear for a second round. In the absence of a GW FAQ let your opponents/TOs make their decision and then either applaud them or be steely eye'd in your disappointment. Apologies, not my intent when I started it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 There are two options. The model is replaced with a new one. It the comes on the table with full wounds, and loses command abilities and traits. This is equivalent to a summon, and you pay the points. This is not what the ring does. The model is healed d3 wounds and teleported, i.e. not replaced. If you read the rules for the RoI, this is clearly what happens, meaning you don't pay points. The FAQ clarifies this for characters with similar rules (Skarr), and states that you don't pay. I think it's fairly clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iosefward Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Bowlzee said: Seems pretty clear that it doesn't cost points to restore the wearer to the battlefield. It only has D3 wounds, hardly worth having to pay for the points again. Quite obvious the model is not replaced, re-summoned, added to etc. The very same model that was just struck down, is transported and healed D3 wounds... It's not really debatable... This to me says it's more of a "teleport and heal" rather than "remove and re-deploy", but I'll admit I'm biased as I like the item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 @TerrorPenguin Don't beat yourself over it. I don't see why folks can't just disagree. There always been a weird part of human nature to me that it is insanely important for people to agree with you, and if they don't it means they hate you and everything you stand. Way i see it When you discuss a thing its not to convince other, but to convey a point so that we can expand ourselves so we can make more informed opinions later. 2 hours ago, Naishy said: I hate to say this but this whole thread does nothing but make me sad, it feels like the evil spirits of the warhammer forum and Warseer are making an appearance. Before the generals handbook this would have been down to an agreement with your opponent or the tournament organizer's discretion. I feel the spirit is very much that you don't pay points to have your beaten bloody character re-appear for a second round. In the absence of a GW FAQ let your opponents/TOs make their decision and then either applaud them or be steely eye'd in your disappointment. See and this. I'd go ****** a coffee with any of the folks here. This a forum thread for talking about things. What's the point if we aren't gonna talk about things. This kind of talk makes figuring stuff out on a gaming table cool. If me and by buds were scratching our heads of a rule and had no idea how it worked. We'd look over these thread and be like "Hmmm that mmimzie guy says by the exact word it might just cost points, and other folks say he's kinda using the ability on himself so he's not really dead, wanna say it doesn't cost points??" Now that imaginary game can continue with a rule decided on by an outside force, and not have to argue it themselves. no one player feels they have been even a tiny bit cheesed because he gave into, but didn't wanna ahve to argue his friend. I don't know what evil spirits you speak of. As said i don't dislike anybody on this forum, and if they disagree that's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amysrevenge Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 So, to be clear, we're taking the "transports them from danger and restores some of their power" bit from the fluff section of the rule as some sort of insight into the literal rules, but not the "cannot be used again until the next moon rises"? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 9 minutes ago, amysrevenge said: So, to be clear, we're taking the "transports them from danger and restores some of their power" bit from the fluff section of the rule as some sort of insight into the literal rules, but not the "cannot be used again until the next moon rises"? LOL Paying points still contradicts the FAQ. minutes ago, mmimzie said: See and this. I'd go ****** a coffee with any of the folks here. As said i don't dislike anybody on this forum, and if they disagree that's fine. I dislike you, no coffee for you ya ******! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonwarmington Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 7 minutes ago, amysrevenge said: So, to be clear, we're taking the "transports them from danger and restores some of their power" bit from the fluff section of the rule as some sort of insight into the literal rules, but not the "cannot be used again until the next moon rises"? LOL power restored! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 LOL Again though technically the FAQ for the general rules goes out the window when it clashes with the GH book. As i believe that FAQ says something about being able to get a 1+ save. as such rules hierarchy goes GHFAQ>GH>FAQ>Core rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphon_specs Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I've used the ring may of times and I use it with the Vlzd and 99% of the time I roll a 1 or 2 and 1 or 2 for his potion and then it gets killed off again. I think it's best trick is psychological, it sends more fear than actual damage. The more people try to argue it the more fear it gains a neat trick for a death army. but it's just more fun and sure more satisfying to kill it twice that's what my opponents always say. My only real question is will it be allowed under pointed at blood and glory? Cheers Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.