Let's chat Fyreslayers

[mdkinker]

On 9/11/2017 at 7:14 AM, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

This a copy and paste of my post in the Fyreslayers FB group. I thought I would post here too as many aren't on that group and it's a pretty common question.

WHICH IS THE BEST WEAPON OPTION?

TLDR:

Vulkites Pick and Shield: shock damage against high save targets then anvil and grind. 
Vulkites Dual axes: Good all round, better against low save targets. 
Hearthguard Poleaxes: best against high armour
Hearthguard Broadaxe: good all round, excellent when buffed. 

FULL POST

To add on to my post yesterday about weapon options, below are the exact mathematical averages for damage against different saves and a second average with a re-roll to wound. 

Some pertinent points to note:

• Vulkites with Shield and Pick are notably better against targets with a save of 3+ or lower on the first round of combat after that they are equal or worse. 
• Vulkites with Dual axes are better against lower save targets of 5+ or more. After the first round they will out damage pick and shield. 
• Both weapon options are about even against 4+ save targets. 
• Both weapon options for vulkites vs all targets see a fairly even benefit when having re rolls to wound. 

• Hearthguard with Polaxes are better against targets with a save of 4+ or lower
• Hearthguard with Broadaxes are better against targets with a save of 5+ or higher
• Hearthguard with Broadaxes see a much better benefit when having re rolls to wound. This will make them better than poleaxes against 4+ save targets. 

Vulkite Berserkers Pick and Shield
Damage vs 2+ = 0.37 RRTW 0.42
Damage vs 3+ = 0.42 RRTW 0.55
Damage vs 4+ = 0.50 RRTW 0.67
Damage vs 5+ = 0.59 RRTW 0.80
Damage vs 6+ = 0.67 RRTW 0.92

Vulkite Berserkers Dual Axes
Damage vs 2+ = 0.17 RRTW 0.22
Damage vs 3+ = 0.34 RRTW 0.45
Damage vs 4+ = 0.50 RRTW 0.67
Damage vs 5+ = 0.67 RRTW 0.89
Damage vs 6+ = 0.84 RRTW 1.11

Hearthguard Berserkers Poleaxe
Damage vs 2+ = 0.51 RRTW 0.53
Damage vs 3+ = 0.56 RRTW 0.62
Damage vs 4+ = 0.62 RRTW 0.70
Damage vs 5+ = 0.67 RRTW 0.79
Damage vs 6+ = 0.73 RRTW 0.87

Hearthguard Berserkers Broadaxe
Damage vs 2+ = 0.30 RRTW 0.40
Damage vs 3+ = 0.45 RRTW 0.60
Damage vs 4+ = 0.60 RRTW 0.80
Damage vs 5+ = 0.75 RRTW 0.99
Damage vs 6+ = 0.90 RRTW 1.19

Disclaimer: this information is based on raw math only and not the unique tactical situations that you might encounter in your games. There's every chance that each unit will be individually better than shown here depending on the circumstance.

That's great info. It sounds like you've done this elsewhere, but I wanted to add point efficiency comparing VBs to HBs at max unit size (which helps HBs a lot). Max unit of VBs is 68.75% of the points for a max unit of HBs, so I compared the damage ratios to that in order to get a feel for relative efficiencies between the different units (which your tables do a great job showing with the same units). If the ratio got closer to equal (higher percentage) then I assumed the VBs were showing efficiency (and vice versa). (I think that works, lol, my stats reasoning is a little rusty)

Against 2+ and 3+ targets VBs with picks were more point efficient than the Poleaxe HBs (with buffs and without, though this increased with buff [79.2%@2+]). Less space efficient, sure, and this isn't counting a double pile in from LotL, but still. From this I'd say that outside a maxed unit of HBs in LotL, I'd go with VBs (except when just having fun as those flaming poleaxe chains are cool).

Hordes of 5+ and 6+ targets are also more efficiently dealt with by VBs with double hand axes than by HBs with broadaxes (89%@5+ with buff). On the other hand, the broadaxe HBs showed efficiency against +2  saves compared to double axe VBs (though still not as efficient as poleaxes or picks, double hand axes just really suck with this save).

Since broadaxes with the RRTW buff are equal to or better than poleaxes at 3+ and up, and picks are more efficient at 2+ (every level of save, really), I wonder if there's a clear role for poleaxes. Do we think the space efficiency plus LotL can still make them the best tank killer option? I've seen it work, but I've also been very pleasantly surprised by units of picks and shields. There was a lot of frustration on my opponent's face as my VBs stood toe to toe with a 2+ Alarielle. Until a nasty antlers roll...

TLDR: VBs with picks more points efficient at every save level compared to HBs with poleaxes (pick VBs less space efficient at 4+ and below, equal or better above that)

VBs with double hand axes more points efficient than HBs with either weapon from 3+ save and up, but less efficient at 2+ (less space efficient at all levels compared to broadaxes, and less space efficient than poleaxes until you hit 5+ with RRTW)

HBs generally more space efficient, especially at lower saves, and have double pile in with LotL battalion.

 

 

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

2 hours ago, mdkinker said:

That's great info. It sounds like you've done this elsewhere, but I wanted to add point efficiency comparing VBs to HBs at max unit size (which helps HBs a lot). Max unit of VBs is 68.75% of the points for a max unit of HBs, so I compared the damage ratios to that in order to get a feel for relative efficiencies between the different units (which your tables do a great job showing with the same units). If the ratio got closer to equal (higher percentage) then I assumed the VBs were showing efficiency (and vice versa). (I think that works, lol, my stats reasoning is a little rusty)

Against 2+ and 3+ targets VBs with picks were more point efficient than the Poleaxe HBs (with buffs and without, though this increased with buff [79.2%@2+]). Less space efficient, sure, and this isn't counting a double pile in from LotL, but still. From this I'd say that outside a maxed unit of HBs in LotL, I'd go with VBs (except when just having fun as those flaming poleaxe chains are cool).

Hordes of 5+ and 6+ targets are also more efficiently dealt with by VBs with double hand axes than by HBs with broadaxes (89%@5+ with buff). On the other hand, the broadaxe HBs showed efficiency against +2  saves compared to double axe VBs (though still not as efficient as poleaxes or picks, double hand axes just really suck with this save).

Since broadaxes with the RRTW buff are equal to or better than poleaxes at 3+ and up, and picks are more efficient at 2+ (every level of save, really), I wonder if there's a clear role for poleaxes. Do we think the space efficiency plus LotL can still make them the best tank killer option? I've seen it work, but I've also been very pleasantly surprised by units of picks and shields. There was a lot of frustration on my opponent's face as my VBs stood toe to toe with a 2+ Alarielle. Until a nasty antlers roll...

TLDR: VBs with picks more points efficient at every save level compared to HBs with poleaxes (pick VBs less space efficient at 4+ and below, equal or better above that)

VBs with double hand axes more points efficient than HBs with either weapon from 3+ save and up, but less efficient at 2+ (less space efficient at all levels compared to broadaxes, and less space efficient than poleaxes until you hit 5+ with RRTW)

HBs generally more space efficient, especially at lower saves, and have double pile in with LotL battalion.

 

 

Some great additional info here the main thing I was aiming for originally was comparing weapon options rather than the two units. 

From my math vulkites are so much more efficient for the points you're right.  If you can't underestimate hearthguard for their density of damage output as you say, especially with Lords of the Lodge. 

[Champotte]

Hey guys,

I'm pretty new to AoS and Fyreslayers and I'm trying to build a semi competitive 2k list. I don't want to play a horde army, so I'm mainly trying to build the list around HB as battlelines. I know the general consensus is to play 2 or 3 pack of 30 VB but this is definitly not my thing  : I don't want to build, paint and move 90 VB. I also really like the idea of tunneling a unit of AH.

This is the list I'm working on right now.

Allegiance: Fyreslayers

Leaders

Auric Runefather on Magmadroth (260)
- General
- Trait: Spirit of Grimnir 
- Artefact: Obsidian Coronet 
Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (200)
- Forge Key
- Artefact: Obsidian Coronet 
Battlesmith (80)
Auric Runesmiter (80) TUNNELING
- Forge Key
Grimwrath Berzerker (80)

Battleline
30 x Vulkite Berzerkers (330)
- War-Picks & Slingshields
15 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (300)
- Broadaxes
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runefather General)
15 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (300)
- Poleaxes
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runefather General)
15 x Auric Hearthguard (300) TUNNELING
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runemaster General)

Total: 1930/2000
 

The Magfather allows me to use HB as battlelines and help the whole army with battleshock tests and mortal wounds (magmabomb). The Magsmiter is a buffbot, buffing the whole army and helping AH to maximize their damage when they first pop in. Battlesmith is obvious and is an auto include. Grimwrath berzerker is basically a  fun zerk on steroide but I wonder if it would not be better to use a second battlesmith or a second a Runesmiter to tunnel one of the HB unit. Also, I'm a wondering if it is better to play 2 x 15 HB or 1 x 20 HB + 1 x 10 HB or 1 x 15 HB + 1 x 10 HB + 1x 20 AH. 

Any tips / advice ? How would you improve it ?

[Champotte]

I used 2 artefacts on the list but that was obviously a mistake. Magfather is the one using obsidian coronet. ?

[Andreas]

1 hour ago, Champotte said:

Hey guys,

I'm pretty new to AoS and Fyreslayers and I'm trying to build a semi competitive 2k list. I don't want to play a horde army, so I'm mainly trying to build the list around HB as battlelines. I know the general consensus is to play 2 or 3 pack of 30 VB but this is definitly not my thing  : I don't want to build, paint and move 90 VB. I also really like the idea of tunneling a unit of AH.

This is the list I'm working on right now.

Allegiance: Fyreslayers

Leaders

Auric Runefather on Magmadroth (260)
- General
- Trait: Spirit of Grimnir 
- Artefact: Obsidian Coronet 
Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (200)
- Forge Key
- Artefact: Obsidian Coronet 
Battlesmith (80)
Auric Runesmiter (80) TUNNELING
- Forge Key
Grimwrath Berzerker (80)

Battleline
30 x Vulkite Berzerkers (330)
- War-Picks & Slingshields
15 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (300)
- Broadaxes
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runefather General)
15 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (300)
- Poleaxes
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runefather General)
15 x Auric Hearthguard (300) TUNNELING
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runemaster General)

Total: 1930/2000
 

The Magfather allows me to use HB as battlelines and help the whole army with battleshock tests and mortal wounds (magmabomb). The Magsmiter is a buffbot, buffing the whole army and helping AH to maximize their damage when they first pop in. Battlesmith is obvious and is an auto include. Grimwrath berzerker is basically a  fun zerk on steroide but I wonder if it would not be better to use a second battlesmith or a second a Runesmiter to tunnel one of the HB unit. Also, I'm a wondering if it is better to play 2 x 15 HB or 1 x 20 HB + 1 x 10 HB or 1 x 15 HB + 1 x 10 HB + 1x 20 AH. 

Any tips / advice ? How would you improve it ?

I think this is a decent semi competitive list.

I think the strongest small change you could do is to add another Runesmiter, maybe try some conversion if you dont want to buy another magma. The reason for this is to have the option to tunnel another unit in a circle around the aurics on to an objective if you can. Other than that the changes to make the list stronger is probably in the direction you dont want, like add another 30 vulkites.

[Louzi]

12 hours ago, Champotte said:

Hey guys,

I'm pretty new to AoS and Fyreslayers and I'm trying to build a semi competitive 2k list. I don't want to play a horde army, so I'm mainly trying to build the list around HB as battlelines. I know the general consensus is to play 2 or 3 pack of 30 VB but this is definitly not my thing  : I don't want to build, paint and move 90 VB. I also really like the idea of tunneling a unit of AH.

This is the list I'm working on right now.

Allegiance: Fyreslayers

Leaders

Auric Runefather on Magmadroth (260)
- General
- Trait: Spirit of Grimnir 
- Artefact: Obsidian Coronet 
Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (200)
- Forge Key
- Artefact: Obsidian Coronet 
Battlesmith (80)
Auric Runesmiter (80) TUNNELING
- Forge Key
Grimwrath Berzerker (80)

Battleline
30 x Vulkite Berzerkers (330)
- War-Picks & Slingshields
15 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (300)
- Broadaxes
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runefather General)
15 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (300)
- Poleaxes
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runefather General)
15 x Auric Hearthguard (300) TUNNELING
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runemaster General)

Total: 1930/2000
 

The Magfather allows me to use HB as battlelines and help the whole army with battleshock tests and mortal wounds (magmabomb). The Magsmiter is a buffbot, buffing the whole army and helping AH to maximize their damage when they first pop in. Battlesmith is obvious and is an auto include. Grimwrath berzerker is basically a  fun zerk on steroide but I wonder if it would not be better to use a second battlesmith or a second a Runesmiter to tunnel one of the HB unit. Also, I'm a wondering if it is better to play 2 x 15 HB or 1 x 20 HB + 1 x 10 HB or 1 x 15 HB + 1 x 10 HB + 1x 20 AH. 

Any tips / advice ? How would you improve it ?

List is ok, but I dont get it why you take units of 15 hb...they wont benefit from any buffs. I would go for units of 5 instead...

[Champotte]

14 minutes ago, Louzi said:

List is ok, but I dont get it why you take units of 15 hb...they wont benefit from any buffs. I would go for units of 5 instead...

The idea was to use HB as an elite infantry, benefiting from MagFather command ability (26' bubble with the Coronet), MagSmiter Runic Empowerment and Duty onto death (always being 10' from a Fyreslayer hero). 15 HB seems to me an ok "balance point" in terms of staying power, damage potential, and maneuverability on the table.  I don't want to  take HBs for the battleline tax only.  What do you think of adding a Battlesmith to babycare one of the HB unit  (maybe playing 20 HB + 10 HB instead of 2 x 15) ?

Anyway, how would you use the spare points if using 2 units of 5 HB ? A big unit of tunneling AH ?

[Champotte]

11 hours ago, Andreas said:

I think this is a decent semi competitive list.

I think the strongest small change you could do is to add another Runesmiter, maybe try some conversion if you dont want to buy another magma. The reason for this is to have the option to tunnel another unit in a circle around the aurics on to an objective if you can. Other than that the changes to make the list stronger is probably in the direction you dont want, like add another 30 vulkites.

Thanks for your answer Andreas ! If adding a Runesmiter for tunneling, I suppose it is better to play 1 x 20 HB + 1 x 10 HB instead of 2 x 15 ?

[Andreas]

2 minutes ago, Champotte said:

Anyway, how would you use the spare points if using 2 units of 5 HB ? A big unit of tunneling AH ?

He wants you to try 6 x 5 HB instead of 2 x 15 HB.

[Champotte]

Just now, Andreas said:

He wants you to try 6 x 5 HB instead of 2 x 15 HB.

Ohh ok, that make sense. Thanks for pointing this out !

[Andreas]

5 minutes ago, Champotte said:

Thanks for your answer Andreas ! If adding a Runesmiter for tunneling, I suppose it is better to play 1 x 20 HB + 1 x 10 HB instead of 2 x 15 ?

There are no right answer to this. I would go for 15 HB, 10 HB and 20 AH.

[cranect]

if he changes one HB unit to a 5 man then he can actually save points making the other one a 30 man unit. That would then give him enough to add in a runesmiter on foot as well.

[Louzi]

If u have no specific plan to buff the HB, go MSU HB. Not too bad.

[mdkinker]

I thought it was interesting that in the latest Warhammer Community article, Fyreslayers were listed as a good beneficiary of the shared Hammerhal allegiance ability because they are "a fairly elite army." The advised list suggests a core of HBs and then a bunch of magmadroths. While a bunch of magmadroths is always a good time, and we've talked about how effective a big crew of HBs is, this advice seemed odd to me because of the characterization of the army. When I think "elite army" I think SE, Skryr, Deathlords, Everchosen, or Rotbringers. Not a horde army, like Fyreslayers. Maybe it was just weird wording, heh. Maybe some streams of thought got crossed.

Link

 

[Louzi]

1250 points tournament coming up. What you think about this list:

Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Auric Runefather on Magmadroth (260)
- General
- Trait: Exemplar of the Ancestor
- Artefact: Ash-plume Sigil
Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (200)
- Forge Key
Battlesmith (80)
Auric Runesmiter (80)
- Forge Key

Battleline
10 x Auric Hearthguard (200)
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runemaster General)
5 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (100)
- Poleaxes
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runefather General)
30 x Vulkite Berzerkers (330)
- Pairs of Handaxes

Total: 1250/2000

Havent playtested the list yet and I am still struggling whether taking pairs of handaxes or shields...(the fyreslayer deep in my heart dont want to take shields! But...)

[Andreas]

19 minutes ago, Louzi said:

1250 points tournament coming up. What you think about this list:

Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Auric Runefather on Magmadroth (260)
- General
- Trait: Exemplar of the Ancestor
- Artefact: Ash-plume Sigil
Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (200)
- Forge Key
Battlesmith (80)
Auric Runesmiter (80)
- Forge Key

Battleline
10 x Auric Hearthguard (200)
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runemaster General)
5 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (100)
- Poleaxes
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runefather General)
30 x Vulkite Berzerkers (330)
- Pairs of Handaxes

Total: 1250/2000

Havent playtested the list yet and I am still struggling whether taking pairs of handaxes or shields...(the fyreslayer deep in my heart dont want to take shields! But...)

Looks fun, a little bit of everything. I don't know what kind of list you want to bring but if you want to make it harder you could drop the Runefather and and 5 aurics/Hearthguards for another unit of 30 vulkites. Maybe Magmasmiter, Battlesmith, Smiter, 2x30 Vulkites and 10 Hearthguards. That would be a scary scary list at that points level IMO.

[Malakithe]

How does this look?

Allegiance: Fyreslayers
Leaders
Auric Runefather on Magmadroth (260)
- General
- Trait: Iron of the Guardian
- Artefact: Obsidian Coronet
Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (200)
Battlesmith (80)
Auric Runesmiter (80)
Battleline
30 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (480)
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runefather General)
30 x Vulkite Berzerkers (330)
- Pairs of Handaxes
30 x Vulkite Berzerkers (330)
- War-Picks & Slingshields
10 x Auric Hearthguard (200)
Total: 1960 / 2000

[Louzi]

I like the list alot. But i think the unit of ah doesnt fit that good. You want 1 of the 2 units of vulkites tunneled. And i think we rly should ally with overlords on 2000 points...

[Louzi]

I guees i would drop the smiter on magmadroth for a normal smiter. So you can tunnel both units of vulkites. For the ah I would go for skywardens or endrins

[Louzi]

This is the strongest list I can think of:

Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Auric Runefather on Magmadroth (260)
Auric Runesmiter (80)
- Runic Iron
Auric Runesmiter (80)
- Runic Iron
Battlesmith (80)

Battleline
30 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (480)
- Broadaxes
- Fyreslayer Battleline (Runefather General)
30 x Vulkite Berzerkers (330)
- Handaxes & Slingshields
30 x Vulkite Berzerkers (330)
- Handaxes & Slingshields

Units
9 x Endrinriggers (360)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400

 

[Malakithe]

I put in the AH just to have options. Depending on the oppentent the tunneling unit can change. Vulkites to block charges or rear charge and the AH for taking out heroes hiding in the back or artillery crews...that was my thought process anyway.

I want to fit in a battalion to get another item but I don't think I can and be happy with the list

[TheNotebookGM]

14 hours ago, Louzi said:

This is the strongest list I can think of:

Allegiance: Order

Units
9 x Endrinriggers (360)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400

 

Why not take the Fyreslayers Allegiance and count the riggers as allies?

[Louzi]

7 hours ago, TheNotebookGM said:

Why not take the Fyreslayers Allegiance and count the riggers as allies?

Thats the plan

[Andreas]

22 hours ago, Louzi said:

This is the strongest list I can think of:

...... 

 

I think that is a strong list.

My thought is that the strongest list have one of these as the foundation.

MagSon + 3 * 30 vulkites + 2 runesmiters + kinband + probably MagSmiter and Battlesmith

MagFather + 2*30 vulkites + 30 Hearthguards + 2 runesmiters + Battlesmith

MagSmiter + 2*30 vulkites + 30 Aurics + 10 Vulkites + 2 runesmiters + Battlesmith

Then you combine it either with skyriggers or more magmadroths for better movement.

You have a good MagFather list.

A MagSmiter example list could be:

1    Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth, General, Exemplar of the Ancestors, Ash-plume Sigil    200
1    Battlesmith    80
1    Auric Runesmiter    80
1    Auric Runesmiter    80
30    Vulkite Berserkers    330
30    Vulkite Berserkers    330
10    Vulkite Berserkers    120
30    Auric Hearthguard    480
9    Skywardens    300

MagSon example list could be:

1    Auric Runeson on Magmadroth, General, Exemplar of the Ancestors, Obsidian Coronet    240
1    Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth, Ash-plume Sigil    200
1    Auric Runesmiter    80
1    Auric Runesmiter    80
30    Vulkite Berserkers    330
30    Vulkite Berserkers    330
30    Vulkite Berserkers    330
9    Skywardens    300
-    Warrior Kindband    90

Or

1    Auric Runeson on Magmadroth, General, Exemplar of the Ancestors, Obsidian Coronet    240
1    Auric Runeson on Magmadroth, Ash-plume Sigil    240
1    Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth    200
1    Battlesmith    80
1    Auric Runesmiter    80
1    Auric Runesmiter    80
30    Vulkite Berserkers    330
30    Vulkite Berserkers    330
30    Vulkite Berserkers    330
-    Warrior Kindband    90

Some version of one of these lists I think is the best one. Which one I dont know. Or maybe something I havn't even considered will rise to the top.

 

 

[Thomas Lyons]

2 hours ago, Andreas said:

My thought is that the strongest list have one of these as the foundation.

MagSon + 3 * 30 vulkites + 2 runesmiters + kinband + probably MagSmiter and Battlesmith

MagFather + 2*30 vulkites + 30 Hearthguards + 2 runesmiters + Battlesmith

MagSmiter + 2*30 vulkites + 30 Aurics + 10 Vulkites + 2 runesmiters + Battlesmith

Then you combine it either with skyriggers or more magmadroths for better movement.

You have a good MagFather list.

This, with the assumption that the first of those options will likely yeild the best results.